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  1. #41
    Legendary! The One Percent's Avatar
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    You can not because the only difference between high skill and low skill is amount of effort, and I don't associate with people who half ass things regardless of what those things are.
    You're getting exactly what you deserve.

  2. #42
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    You can't, high skilled people usually don't have the patience to play with people who constantly fuck up that's why in high skilled guilds people get benched or kicked if they aren't good enough, unlike bad guilds who accept everyone and never progress until blizz nerfs the content like right now with the ilvl upgrades and high ilvl mythic gear that can drop

  3. #43
    Herald of the Titans Orangetai420's Avatar
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    Simple - there is only one raid difficulty and it's close to Heroic with the last boss somewhere between heroic and mythic. New players are perfectly capable of this difficulty and there could be more support for things like challenge modes and proving grounds for the elite.
    MMO-C, home of the worst community on the internet.

  4. #44
    The more casual the activity, the better these two groups work together.

    Let's take organized raiding, into example, there will always be a barrier between these two groups.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccombustable View Post
    They only real way that I've seen is for low-skill players to have the personal desire for improvement to become high-skill players.

    The majority of high-skill players i've known have no problem teaching someone how to be better and seeing them improve. However, when a low-skill player doesn't care to play better, then it just feels like babysitting for the high-skill player, and that tends to get old and frustrating fast.
    This exactly. I am a pretty hardcore and skilled player and I like helping others improve. But when its obvious that people either don't want to invest the time needed to become good, or don't even care about improving at all, I give up completely and avoid them like the plague.
    The grass is always greener - The times were always better

  6. #46
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    How do we even define 'high skilled' and 'low skilled.' If we're thinking about the group finder for content like mythic dungeons or raiding there are basically two metrics that 'the community' uses to define you as one or the other. Item level and achievements. Now, obviously this has it's flaws. It's pretty cheap for example to get a boost for heroic archi - in fact in the EU you could buy and sell a game time token on ah and have change left over after your boost. Item level is a bit trickier to cheese but at the end of the day for everything but the most difficult content pvp gear is more than good enough - and much more time convenient to get.

    Even using these metrics pugs more often than not fail anyway in trickier content but there are a few areas where it becomes annoying. Example: friend of mine recently returned to wow and cannot get in mythic dungeon pug groups. Why? Item level is too low (he's at about 695 or something so clearly not) This person raided end game content from TBC until MoP and is absolutely far more 'skilled' than most of the WoW population.

    In conclusion all us wow nerds (lacking the social skills of normal people) basically judge people by a number or their ability to link an 'achievement' they very well may have bought. And then we have the nerve to describe this as being high skilled haha!
    Last edited by mmocc190ba80e7; 2016-04-06 at 02:16 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    Yes, it is true. You not believing it is another matter.



    Your post is good evidence for this thread.
    So is yours. It's easiest to check what happened in SoO and check youtube videos. 2 hours + 30 min queues for dps and 4 wings while Heroic clears too 3 to 4 hours max.

    You people justifying how bad you are through time is such a joke.

  8. #48
    There're a lot reasons why someone would be "lowskilled" in this game and I believe most of them are solvable with investing time in the right things. Problem is that the amount of information in this game is overwhelming for someone not used to MMORPGs. I remember being mortified of the idea of having to research stuff in the internet for a game. It's just not obvious to a lot of people and some can't see the point. So in my humble opinion of a guy who started in the dark in this game having no clue (need on everything on my first dungeon, ret paladin with righteous fury on, go figure) and only one friend that had some experience to be able to raid in heroics:

    - make it more obvious that you should join a guild and make the interface better for that
    - make recruitment posts expire so there's always updated information there
    - allow guild members (after a period) to rate their own guild in some aspects and show the results in the recruitment
    - perhaps go fancier and do "what players like you think of this guild:" based on overall game time, stuff that you do (pve, pvp and so on)
    - keep doing stuff like mythic dungeons that are a great alternative (in gear, vp sense) to LFR

    Guild matters, a lot. There's no practical way you can regulate trade chat or other "public" ways of communication. "Oh the community will do it" hah, yes. "Blizzard should do it". Yes, and raise the subscription to $50 a month to pay for monitoring. In guilds you have that already. There's usually an officer around to make sure the guild's principles are respected, whatever they are. You won't force high skilled players to play with low skilled players but you can create an environment where they can be friends or at very least force them to respect each other.

    I've been doing some mythic dungeons in one of my guilds to bring people with low gear and even people who never did dungeons before. In all runs the low skilled people were respected, had their questions answered and visibly got better in some encounters.

  9. #49
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamza View Post
    How do we even define 'high skilled' and 'low skilled.'
    Very simple:

    High skilled: can perform their classes rotation for good-excellent output while adjusting to mechanics / circumstances on the fly.

    Low skilled: can barely perform their classes rotation if the encounter involves more than standing and pressing buttons and often prioritizes the wrong things (damage over dodging lethal stuff) and generally doesn't notice when stuff happens until it is too late.

    The former players get the encounter in 2-3 pulls. The latter ones still die on Hanz-O-Franz after 150 pulls.
    Last edited by Granyala; 2016-04-06 at 02:19 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichifails View Post
    So is yours.
    Oh please explain that. I loved to read it your reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichifails View Post
    It's easiest to check what happened in SoO and check youtube videos. 2 hours + 30 min queues for dps and 4 wings while Heroic clears too 3 to 4 hours max.

    You people justifying how bad you are through time is such a joke.
    Your problem is you judge people based on your conceptual view of the game and dismiss other views as being wrong or incorrect.

    A common theme I see from people who has this impression is "I do it this way so all people are the same. Those who do not are bad or lazy".

    You think everyone is playing or should play the game the same way as you do because you believe that is the "correct" or "proper" way.

  11. #51
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kinneer View Post
    You think everyone is playing or should play the game the same way as you do because you believe that is the "correct" or "proper" way.
    When it comes to performance in PvE: yes.
    There is one proper way and no such thing as: "I'll play the game my way because I like it better".

    Now, on whether you want to raid in organized fashion (hardcore frontload or casual), pug or merely do dailies? Whether to choose the golden transmog or the red one:

    All up to your taste of course.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Very simple:

    High skilled: can perform their classes rotation for good-excellent output while adjusting to mechanics / circumstances on the fly.

    Low skilled: can barely perform their classes rotation if the encounter involves more than standing and pressing buttons and often prioritizes the wrong things (damage over dodging lethal stuff) and generally doesn't notice when stuff happens until it is too late.

    The former players get the encounter in 2-3 pulls. The latter ones still die on Hanz-O-Franz after 150 pulls.
    Well that definition is very simple but it doesn't offer us anything. How do we assess that when the most method of communication is a couple of whispers when forming pug content? It's so unbelievably subjective and if we're being completely honest, totally irrelevant for most pug content.

    The 'skill' cap in wow is actually pretty low. The community's definition "High skilled = those with high ilvls and ahead of the curve achis" "Low skilled = well everyone else." It highlights the crippling lack of social intelligence of the vast majority of mmo players hah.

  13. #53
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamza View Post
    How do we assess that when the most method of communication is a couple of whispers when forming pug content?
    We cannot.
    The only way would be to link logs from past raids and analyze them, which is what most guilds do when they recruit.

    OBVIOUSLY that kind of effort is out of the question when forming PuGs.

    Only reliable way to assess a player is to see him in action.

  14. #54
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    Trivial content. Worldbosses for example unite them.

  15. #55
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamza View Post
    It highlights the crippling lack of social intelligence of the vast majority of mmo players hah.
    Only thing it highlights is, that the game lacks a dependable metric for individual players skill.

    Item level is too inflated and all over the place.
    Achievements can be bought via carries.

    Maybe if Blizzard put actual effort in things like Proving grounds, to resemble real world PvE scenarios they would be more useful, I don't know.

  16. #56
    Pandaren Monk lightofdawn's Avatar
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    in a perfect world, high skill players help the low skill players when they can. it's just up to the low skill player to choose to take that advice or carry on being sub par. if you refuse to optimize in a setting where optimization is key, then you're not going to perform as well as people who are willing to

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Only thing it highlights is, that the game lacks a dependable metric for individual players skill.

    Item level is too inflated and all over the place.
    Achievements can be bought via carries.

    Maybe if Blizzard put actual effort in things like Proving grounds, to resemble real world PvE scenarios they would be more useful, I don't know.
    i agree whole heartedly that proving grounds need to actually prove skill rather than the player having a pulse
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamza View Post
    How do we even define 'high skilled' and 'low skilled.
    Performance. How well one does compared to others and how well they utilize the tools they have at their disposal.
    Desire to get better. How one reacts to their own performance.
    Dedication. How one responds to difficulty and how well they adapt to hardship.

    High Skilled:


    High level of performance. High numbers compared to others in the same IL bracket, low damage taken, ability to perform mechanics flawlessly while achieving both. Good attention to detail.

    Competitive in nature. Has an ingrained need to compete, get better, and outperform others. Primarily others in the same difficulty bracket. As such, they will pour over logs and parses to see what they are doing wrong, what they could do better, and what those doing better than them are doing differently.

    Dedicated to getting the job done. Has the ability to work with a group under pressure, push through reasonable failure to progress, thinks primarily of the group's progress over their own IL, and enjoys the challenge of difficult content more than the instant rewards of easier fare.

    Low Skilled:

    Low level of performance. Low numbers compared to others in the same IL bracket, lack of attention to detail and mechanics, needs fights explained to them. General lack of awareness.

    No desire to get better. "It's just a game bro" attitude where there is a lethargic reaction to their own failures and lots of excuses made. ("Lag", "cat on fire", "can't raid cuz I got a life", etc.) Little to no attention paid to parses, optimization, or logs and no understanding of where, when, and why to do certain things which optimize performance. Typically falls into the categories of: 'Guy who AFKs during boss fights' and 'Guy who tunnels bosses because if he looks like he's doing the most dps, then people might be fooled into thinking he was doing things right'.

    A short attention span. More suited to mobile games and casual experiences than actual tests of skill. Becomes frustrated and stressed when under pressure, takes criticism either with offense or a "yolo" attitude, thinks primarily of their own IL over the progress of the group, (pugging and LFR appeal much more to them partly because of this) and enjoys the instant ego stroking of easier content over the hard-won victories of more challenging fare.
    Last edited by Lord Havik; 2016-04-06 at 02:48 PM.
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  18. #58
    Deleted
    You create 2 raid parties.

    You create a sense of community in the guild for everyone, by small guild events and prizes so people are not encouraged to split in 2 or attack eachother.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    We cannot.
    The only way would be to link logs from past raids and analyze them, which is what most guilds do when they recruit.

    OBVIOUSLY that kind of effort is out of the question when forming PuGs.

    Only reliable way to assess a player is to see him in action.
    You rightly say the only reliable way to assess a player is to observe or well do come content with them - or analyse logs. This isn't very helpful in the context of this thread though: How do we get 'high' skilled and 'low' skilled players to work together? If the only reliable way to assess a player to to play the game with them (or observe) then I'd argue that 'raid achievements' and item level are therefore damaging components to the social aspect of the game. Earlier I discussed how easily both can be bought/faked anyway and I would encourage every 'low' skilled player reading this to do exactly that to get into the super phun awesome pugs ;p

    I don't think we could ever get the two groups to work together in raid content but getting rid of some daft metrics that people will judge others by in order to farm easy/outdated content is a good way to remove the barriers 'low' skilled players face.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Only thing it highlights is, that the game lacks a dependable metric for individual players skill.

    Item level is too inflated and all over the place.
    Achievements can be bought via carries.

    Maybe if Blizzard put actual effort in things like Proving grounds, to resemble real world PvE scenarios they would be more useful, I don't know.
    This I completely agree with - I suppose the problem is whatever metrics they tried/if they got rid of some like I suggest then the 'community' in it's wisdom will find something else to inaccurately judge players by in some vain hope it will help their shitty pug ^^

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    I won't argue with that, because I know it's true.
    While the front loading is probably extremely intense and exhausting, the following 5-10+ months (depending on Tier length) put the regular 9hrs/week+ "casual" guilds at a serious disadvantage in terms of time investment. Esp in the year long patches.

    I mean are dudes like you even raiding anymore or are you off to the broken isles, sipping margharitas waiting for the Legion to arrive?
    My guild is still obediently progressing M Xul. Gotta hand it to them, that is some stamina right there. Makes me glad that I quit raiding.
    We clear every tuesday typically carrying buyers. For one you need a constant influx of gold to keep a guild like ours running and you need a decent cache going into every new xpac. On the other hand a guild doesn't stay together if it isn't raiding.

    Like I said it takes us around 3 hours to clear every week while carrying buyers.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

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