[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Ilir]

lol it's still stupid as fuck to go 2 patch with a useless trait.

Don't even try to defend this, you can't.

[Annesh]

Paging @Theed and/or @Kretan

Can we get a report on how much interrupts were reduced on us? 25%, 50%? I'm expecting 50% but that might be a little generous.

Also, shouldn't Ele shamans be on that list? I was under the impression they're even more fucked than we are in pvp.

[Kretan]

lol it's still stupid as fuck to go 2 patch with a useless trait.

Don't even try to defend this, you can't.

It's alpha. Defense successful.

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Paging @Theed and/or @Kretan

Can we get a report on how much interrupts were reduced on us? 25%, 50%? I'm expecting 50% but that might be a little generous.

Also, shouldn't Ele shamans be on that list? I was under the impression they're even more fucked than we are in pvp.

I didn't have a chance to check last night. I will check today after work if no one has figured it out by then.

Honestly I'm shocked every caster isn't on that list. There was no caster short of maybe boomkin and shadow that could reliably work with the current melee meta...... And even then they run out of steam and need to cast hardcore eventually. Fire mage even needs to hard cast a lot of fireballs to get maximum damage and training them shuts down combustion up time severely.

[Aeriel]

Right, mana burn was useful and a nice little niche shared with Warlocks (theirs was a drain, actually, if I remember). I don't quite recall why they axed it, but I always figured it had more to do with mana drain/burn in PvP than in PvE as the PvE applications tended to be far/few in between. Not to say they were never useful in PvE, I remember at least one raid boss I was expected to use mana burns on, along with a Warlock draining them, back in the pre-BC days.

The mana burn damage never bothered me so much as the mana cost of casting the bloody spell. Hard to argue with. It's better than giving a Priest an on melee proc burn.. They'd never have done something so silly.. I wonder why my eyebrow keeps twitching.

It was Moam in Ruins of Ahn'Qiraji. The warlock version was a drain as they had Drain Life and Drain Mana at that point.

In pvp mana burn was OP on many classes (1/4 of a mana bar in many cases), but totally useless on others (no mana = no damage). Ah the days of SPriest dominating BGs.

[Ilir]

It's alpha. Defense successful.

Void Entropy. Defense failed.

:')

No but even tho it's alpha, it doesn't take 10 years to figure out a replacement. It's just lazy.

[Deleted]

No but even tho it's alpha, it doesn't take 10 years to figure out a replacement. It's just lazy.

To figure out ? No it doesn't.
But to figure out, implement, test internally and push to a new build even on alpha, it takes more than a few days/week.

[Kilee25]

I'll see your Void Entropy and raise you Shadowy Insight. :P

[l33t]

I'll see your Void Entropy and raise you Shadowy Insight. :P

But... but you said by yourself that you see a lot of baddies using that talent! Why would Blizzard remove something from their dear casual playerbase?

[Kretan]

Void Entropy. Defense failed.

:')

No but even tho it's alpha, it doesn't take 10 years to figure out a replacement. It's just lazy.

"How is blizzard screwing me today? I can't possibly go a day with overreacting to something and raging at their hatred of shadow priest."

How do you know they don't have a replacement being tested on an internal build? What if this build was developed before psychic horror was removed? What if they are still deciding?

I'd hate to see your reaction if we were destroyed locks.

[Theed]

Paging @Theed and/or @Kretan

Can we get a report on how much interrupts were reduced on us? 25%, 50%? I'm expecting 50% but that might be a little generous.

Also, shouldn't Ele shamans be on that list? I was under the impression they're even more fucked than we are in pvp.

It is about 30-40%. I don't have exact numbers right now.

[Chantique]

It is about 30-40%. I don't have exact numbers right now.

Rogues are already crying on forums that they should have absolute control of every action of their enemies and how the nerf to interrupt just give their preys a chance to fight back!! (Sarcasm off) But they are really saying that rogue should have absolute control.

Well for me, increasing the cd of interrupts or lowering the lockdown it help us greatly, so i'm still happy even if blizzard change their minds and revert the nerf for a cd increase.

And @Theed its true that psychic scream is not working on current alpha build?

[Kretan]

It is about 30-40%. I don't have exact numbers right now.

Interesting. I'm guessing it is 33% off the cuff. I am surprised it is that large to be honest.

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Rogues are already crying on forums that they should have absolute control of every action of their enemies and how the nerf to interrupt just give their preys a chance to fight back!! (Sarcasm off) But they are really saying that rogue should have absolute control.

Well for me, increasing the cd of interrupts or lowering the lockdown it help us greatly, so i'm still happy even if blizzard change their minds and revert the nerf for a cd increase.

And @Theed its true that psychic scream is not working on current alpha build?

Yeah either a reduction in effectiveness or a cd increase was sorely needed. Melee had faaaaaar too much control. I was facing rogue/windwalker and I couldn't cast a single spell without casting in to cloak of shadows/karma before dieing haha

[Darth-Piekus]

How are dots hitting at the moment btw? Im asking cause there have been a lot of nerfs on them throught various patches.

[Kretan]

How are dots hitting at the moment btw? Im asking cause there have been a lot of nerfs on them throught various patches.

I don't believe the time averaged strength of them has changed in a while. The tick rate was adjusted, but the dps has remained consistent.

[Kilee25]

But... but you said by yourself that you see a lot of baddies using that talent! Why would Blizzard remove something from their dear casual playerbase?

Lol, true. They just need to buff the proc rate imo.

[snaxattax]

I don't believe the time averaged strength of them has changed in a while. The tick rate was adjusted, but the dps has remained consistent.

the change to duration/tick rate is still a substantial nerf to the benefits of voidform and mass hysteria on non voidbolt extended DoT stacks.

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Lol, true. They just need to buff the proc rate imo.

even if they made it 100% and gave mindsear a swp dot spread, it'd do less damage than sunfire+starfall or on very large # targets SoC+grimsac. it's actually ridiculous. biggest issue is that you only don't have many free gcds between 3 gcd cooldown voidbolt and 3gcd cooldown voidform mindblast. and then if you're looking at it to get you back into voidform faster? in a multitarget situation you get more insanity/sec out of just mindsear when you're at 5+ targets. it's just a retarded orphan mechanic that makes no sense.

it's like so many of shadow's mechanics we have half of a toolkit tied to TBC era multi dot mechanics when just having mindsear added was an improvement, and legion era mechanics where we have a super high dpct voidbolt but not enough coherent mechanics tied to it to make sense.

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one thing that could make SI useful and still feel powerful (before, a mindblast was amazing and gated most of our power) would be something like, your SWP ticks have an x% chance to reduce the cooldown of void torrent by y seconds.

talent would actually plausibly see use then. as-is it just makes no sense. also, realize that your 1 free gcd in execute range you'd want to use SWDeath instead of a mindblast...

[Kretan]

the change to duration/tick rate is still a substantial nerf to the benefits of voidform and mass hysteria on non voidbolt extended DoT stacks.

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even if they made it 100% and gave mindsear a swp dot spread, it'd do less damage than sunfire+starfall or on very large # targets SoC+grimsac. it's actually ridiculous. biggest issue is that you only don't have many free gcds between 3 gcd cooldown voidbolt and 3gcd cooldown voidform mindblast. and then if you're looking at it to get you back into voidform faster? in a multitarget situation you get more insanity/sec out of just mindsear when you're at 5+ targets. it's just a retarded orphan mechanic that makes no sense.

it's like so many of shadow's mechanics we have half of a toolkit tied to TBC era multi dot mechanics when just having mindsear added was an improvement, and legion era mechanics where we have a super high dpct voidbolt but not enough coherent mechanics tied to it to make sense.

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one thing that could make SI useful and still feel powerful (before, a mindblast was amazing and gated most of our power) would be something like, your SWP ticks have an x% chance to reduce the cooldown of void torrent by y seconds.

talent would actually plausibly see use then. as-is it just makes no sense. also, realize that your 1 free gcd in execute range you'd want to use SWDeath instead of a mindblast...

Yeah I was only talking to the physical dps of the dot....the duration reduction is definitely a hit.

[snaxattax]

physical dps of the dot? I mean our haste (and MH %mod) fluctuates so much you can't really look at the tooltip damage and say much anymore. however, you can make some reasonable assumptions with either 20 or 30 second average voidforms. the biggest problem with the change is still how it makes multitarget so cancer. we just don't have enough free gcds in our rotation to waste multidotting unless they juice SWP damage or make SoI have stronger mechanics than articulated in the tooltip.

hopefully they have another ACTUAL balance push coming before too long because I really want to know what they plan on doing to make multitarget feel and perform better. it's not just a numbers thing (they did nerf marked shot a bit, though there's still the fact that once hunters get their execute keystone marked shot scaling will be completely insane (cycling through adds to spread marked shot, then spam arcane shot on the lowest one before it dies to get the %crit bonus and then transfer that back onto remaining marked adds with marked shot... I wish we had multitarget mechanics that made sense and were good like that))

[Strykie]

You guys are debating a null point. (T7 talents on live)

The problem isnt what is better or worse.

If your argument is pick X because it does the most dps except on a few fights where Y is better and Z is just shit, well Z isnt shit, Z just doesn't do enough Z's

Imo, Void Entropy is something reminiscent for shadow priest's of old (Dot refreshing) and it should have its place, the problem is that it does too little damage.

Void Entropy is not currently competitive at all, even if you tailor your gear for it.

It doesnt help that the Archimonde class trinket is biased towards 1 talent, a talent which is counter intuitive to how shadow priests have been playing for nearly 10 years, yeah times change, but i dont see arcane mages casting fireballs to keep the fireball dot up (who am i kidding, they probably dont have that in their spec).

Dont let DPS lead you to believe that a talent is good or bad, its the design that makes something cool, now while i admit that clarity of power is interesting and worthy of the talent position it is in, should it be our goto choice? not really, it should be a nice niche choice.

Shadowy insight is another example of a misguided talent, lets say its damage potential was worth a second look and instead of resetting cooldowns it simply made your next MB not incur a cooldown(stackable), that could be cool, imagine the burst, thats a nice pvp talent, its a nice talent for target switches and suddenly you have something to really make you think about your T5 talent choice, ToF for those execute fights or those where you can tag/kill alot of adds, PI for buff stacking or whatnot and Shadowy insight for fast burst target switching.

I say all this because its a relevant way of thinking about legion talents.
1. Does this feel like a shadow priest talent?
2. Will this talent be enjoyable to use?
3. Does this talent provide choice or variety?

Because a lot of complaining in this thread and others are always talking about numbers.

Remember, if the talents are well designed (thematically), its only dps numbers that need tweaking.
But if you gauge a talent based on its DPS value first, you'll end up with an uninspiring spec (that will ultimately do less damage than a pure anyway..in most cases)

edit: Just realised shadowy insight is still in legion talents.. point still stands tho

[Chantique]

Anyone can comment about the mana change?

How much mana do we have?
How long it takes to replenish mana after we going oom?
How many shadowmends casts it takes to gets us oom?
How much more smooth is our gameplay now with utilities on mana bar and dps only skills on insanity bar?