How do you get highskilled players and lowskilled players to work together?

[Glorious Leader]

Why should the better players be expected to teach other players? What do they get out of it? Communism doesn't work; it's not reasonable to expect people to work for the common good rather than doing things that are beneficial to them individually on the margin.

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Of course it does. You cannot just ignore part of a player's personality because it conflicts with your narrative.

What you may be trying to say is that if the players are lazy/unmotivated, instead of being physically incapable, it is "their fault" and this absolves a game designer of any need to care. Which I hope you aren't trying to say, because it would be completely wrong.

Presumably better players would get more people to play with if they could be arsed to teach others. Their is an individual benefit to them but it takes a much broader mindset and most people are particularly narrow minded when it comes to this game, shit myself included at times.

[Tokas]

Too late in the game to make any changes that would help.

Lower APM, less mechanics that punish someone else for getting randomly selected like in SoO prisons, or Archie chains.

Remove all dmg/healing meters.

Make end game less about ilv.

in other words - play some game for morons, like FFX

[MoanaLisa]

I don't think you do. Social engineering like this is never going to work.

What they can do is what you've been seeing as the "end of WoW" now for weeks. They are narrowing the distance between the bottom of the skill cap and the top. The narrower that is the more likely that people can play together.

I don't know if it's the right idea or not but the over-reliance on add-on software and third party sites can lead one to think that it's a start. We take all of that as a given. New players haven't a clue about all of that and are likely to be run out of the game as anything because they don't. Given a lack of new players you end up with a bad situation. They should be made to feel welcome in all parts of the game. They are not and I don't see that changing. So if you can't effectively social engineer that, you mechanically do it and level the playing field by raising the floor of the skill cap.

[callipygoustp]

How do you get highskilled players and lowskilled players to work together?

There is only one way : they must all have the same or similar agenda. Otherwise, no chance.

When I was a hardcore raider raiding with my hardcore guild I had very definite expectations of what a raid night would be like. On off nights, when I raided with my friends and family guild, I had a completely different set of expectations. I enjoyed the hell out of both teams. The important aspect : my agenda was in line with the particular group I was playing with.

[Kryos]

Eve Online had the concept where the big expensive spaceships would need small, cheap "beginner" ships to defend them. So in other words, the low skilled players need to be able to support the cause (fighting the big evil out there) hand in hand with the high skilled ones. Maybe stuff you can farm and use it to summon bad guys and the high skilled people kill them and with personal loot both will get something - the farmer and the killer. Something like that.

[Unholyground]

You're assuming that low skilled players want to be trained and learn, when in fact most don't claiming some sort of bullshit I have a life, not in the game to work excuse.

With your idea "find ways to reward players who can do this place quickly" there will always be a weak link if theres a huge skill range. That weak link wouldn't give a shit since it's going at their pace, while the others are getting punished for having them come along and go at a slower rate than they could if everyone was at the same skill

When there's a mix of high and low skilled, the higher skilled is punished from having to drag a baddie through a run where the baddie benefits from having someone good in there. The only time this doesn't interact is when each does their thing separately then meet at the end, such as w professions or the AH. I don't care if some guy is at 500 ilvl and hasn't even cleared a single boss in LFR, but if they have something in the AH at the best price I'll buy it and that's my interaction w them.

That is why you still have to reward players even if they do shitty but to a lesser extent, like a currency that you get way more of as you get better times. People will always try and coast in life there is nothing you can do about that.

[Bosen]

The more skilled players need to have more patience and the unskilled need to be open to feedback and self improvement.

[Deleted]

The more skilled players need to have more patience and the unskilled need to be open to feedback and self improvement.

But I don't see the motivation to play together desired by any party. More skilled players don't want to hold back. Unskilled players don't want to become more skilled.

[Holofernes]

Very simple:

High skilled: can perform their classes rotation for good-excellent output while adjusting to mechanics / circumstances on the fly.

Low skilled: can barely perform their classes rotation if the encounter involves more than standing and pressing buttons and often prioritizes the wrong things (damage over dodging lethal stuff) and generally doesn't notice when stuff happens until it is too late.

The former players get the encounter in 2-3 pulls. The latter ones still die on Hanz-O-Franz after 150 pulls.

mythic raider, player since release. have done all heroic /later mythic content in time. still died on Hanz-O-Franz because this bosses floor graphics gave me motion sickness and made me vomit. i passed for this boss every single time, exept once for the kill achievment (i was dead and alt tabbed this boss after pull). so this is a very bad example.

[Deleted]

I don't think you do. Social engineering like this is never going to work.

What they can do is what you've been seeing as the "end of WoW" now for weeks. They are narrowing the distance between the bottom of the skill cap and the top. The narrower that is the more likely that people can play together.

I don't know if it's the right idea or not but the over-reliance on add-on software and third party sites can lead one to think that it's a start. We take all of that as a given. New players haven't a clue about all of that and are likely to be run out of the game as anything because they don't. Given a lack of new players you end up with a bad situation. They should be made to feel welcome in all parts of the game. They are not and I don't see that changing. So if you can't effectively social engineer that, you mechanically do it and level the playing field by raising the floor of the skill cap.

I think it will make it worse... let me explain where I am coming from with that as well. Speaking as someone from a very progressed guild that at times has been in the single digits in terms of world ranking I see simplification as having the opposite effect if it is applied across the board like that. Raiders won't becoming more welcoming if the bar is lowered but rather far more critical of the slightest mistake.... they don't do it to be cruel it is simply a part of their nature to continuously improve.

Logs would become much more common and while applications to guilds are common today. Raiders would inspect a applicants logs far more closely should the skill level be reduced.

I don't know if I have a answer... beyond segregation. The closest I could think of was to have a dungeon similar to time walking where it scaled your gear and attach it to a weekly quest. This dungeon would reward a substantial resource reward be it gold,crafting regents, and/or artifact power at a very lucrative amount. The catch would be that this dungeon que did not allow any form of premade grouping and would be tuned so that the entire group had to hit a reasonable benchmark. This would incentivize more experienced players to help out less.

It does have some glaring problems I admit. Dropping or trying to remove weak players could very well be all that results from this. It isn't a easy problem to solve its why I asked for other peoples view points on it. The groups have such opposing goals it is hard to align them together in any way.

[MoanaLisa]

I think it will make it worse... let me explain where I am coming from with that as well. Speaking as someone from a very progressed guild that at times has been in the single digits in terms of world ranking I see simplification as having the opposite effect if it is applied across the board like that. Raiders won't becoming more welcoming if the bar is lowered but rather far more critical of the slightest mistake.... they don't do it to be cruel it is simply a part of their nature to continuously improve.

High-level raiding as you know it isn't very welcoming now unless recruiting has gotten to be very desperate. That's probably as it should be since mythic-level raiding is really all about min-max and performance above and beyond. Blizzard is on record with that and I don't think their idea is wrong there. To the extent that it gets worse it's just a matter of degree. There's a chance that a larger pool of rejects might be a result but also a chance that there might be a larger pool of accepts too. Raiding cannot continue to shrink with the game. At some point it won't be worth development. Somehow--and this is what I presume the thread is about--a larger pool of possibilities is required. Raising the floor on skill cap might increase that population by a few percent. Whether that's better than none at all is something I don't know and can't say.

I don't know if I have a answer... beyond segregation.

For better or worse, multiple difficulty levels segregate the players for you. I don't know that that is a bad thing either. As much as people complain about Raid Finder and sometimes Normal, it's better that people find their own level, segregated or otherwise, than to be shut out entirely. It's a tremendous amount of work to bring players in and lift them up but it's something that higher-level guilds should at least consider. Stratification, in this case, only hurts the higher level game over the long run. There really are players who have an interest I think but need a hand in raising their game. Telling them to do it on their own and dismissing them can't possibly be a winning strategy to enlarge the pool of acceptable players. That's how I see it.

[Deleted]

High-level raiding as you know it isn't very welcoming now unless recruiting has gotten to be very desperate. That's probably as it should be since mythic-level raiding is really all about min-max and performance above and beyond. Blizzard is on record with that and I don't think their idea is wrong there. To the extent that it gets worse it's just a matter of degree. There's a chance that a larger pool of rejects might be a result but also a chance that there might be a larger pool of accepts too. Raiding cannot continue to shrink with the game. At some point it won't be worth development. Somehow--and this is what I presume the thread is about--a larger pool of possibilities is required. Raising the floor on skill cap might increase that population by a few percent. Whether that's better than none at all is something I don't know and can't say.


For better or worse, multiple difficulty levels segregate the players for you. I don't know that that is a bad thing either. As much as people complain about Raid Finder and sometimes Normal, it's better that people find their own level, segregated or otherwise, than to be shut out entirely. It's a tremendous amount of work to bring players in and lift them up but it's something that higher-level guilds should at least consider. Stratification, in this case, only hurts the higher level game over the long run. There really are players who have an interest I think but need a hand in raising their game. Telling them to do it on their own and dismissing them can't possibly be a winning strategy to enlarge the pool of acceptable players. That's how I see it.

The problem I see with that is currently the floor is to raised to start with. There are players who are looking to improve. Rarely does more then a few days go by I receive a tell asking for advice on certain fights or how to properly expend X cd in situation Y. It isn't so much that the top level of play is unwelcoming it feels at least from my perspective that the first few steps of the game are to simple.

I disparage lfr that isn't exactly a hidden fact but my reasons for doing so is I see it as a detriment to new players rather then a boom. This idea that has slowly been growing since the end of cata that all content must be made toothless just doesn't yield anything long term. Players need to die. They need to fail. They need to feel threatened ideally this occurs in solo play then carries over to group play. The biggest problem I see with current wow is until a new player steps in mythic dungeons or normal raids the game instills into them a sense of invincibility that any enemy will simply fall before them. Once they enter a mode where some level of skill is required it has to be jarring. Suddenly the moronic buffoon of a boss shouting empty threats is wreaking terrible damage and deaths throughout the raid.

I think wow needs a gentler progression curve. I would make normal and lfr reward the same gear and then have non tourist mode start with heroic dungeons tuning them somewhere around tbc/cata levels then building from there.

[MoanaLisa]

It wouldn't bother me to see Raid Finder be a little bit stiffer than it is now. I've also been a proponent in the past of Blizzard using their raid warning system in Raid Finder to advise players on a strategy for dealing with mechanics and then leaving all of the mythic mechanics in the fight but gradually making the higher level mechanics--stuff that's only found in Mythic--not very dangerous so that people can familiarize themselves with it. Personally I find that the correct and most satisfying amount of difficulty for Raid Finder is that if you don't pay attention, you die, but if you do pay attention and at least move out of things on the ground, you would be OK. Instead of tourist mode I would try and find a balance between tourist and pre-training. I'm afraid though that at this point it is what it is and the divides between players--segregation or siloing if you will--are very deep and unlikely to be bridged.

Sadly, I don't think Blizzard even really cares much about it in raiding as long as everyone possible "sees" the raid they're fine with it. Or so it appears. Which means they are not thinking of ways to assist players to move up from "AAA" ball to "A" ball to the minors and then to the big show (Mythic).

I think I still disagree with you about raising the floor on the skill cap. It's not like it will be raised to the point where high-level guilds can't sort out who can carry their weight and who can't so I don't think much will change in that respect. Inertia is powerful and the community inertia in this respect has a full head of steam and won't be easily changed. Which is a little worrying for those that care a lot about raiding. A smallish and shrinking minority of a game that itself is shrinking in a game genre that is also getting smaller as it diversifies needs new blood and at this point I don't see that Darwinian "get better or get out" measures are going to be anything like successful in expanding the raiding gene pool.

At least we can disagree without being disagreeable. There's that.

[Bosen]

But I don't see the motivation to play together desired by any party. More skilled players don't want to hold back. Unskilled players don't want to become more skilled.

It would have to be a shift in attitude towards growing the community. It needs people. Selfishness may win out,but active participation on both sides can help. Community should be the motivation.

[Granyala]

mythic raider, player since release. have done all heroic /later mythic content in time. still died on Hanz-O-Franz because this bosses floor graphics gave me motion sickness and made me vomit.

It is not an animation as such. All that happens ins that platforms glow and you move a step to the right.
If done correctly, you should never be on the moving conveyor belt at all.
If THAT already gives you motion sickness, bosses like Durumu (maze) or Twin Ogron (room filled with wiibly-wobbly fire) must have been hell for you.

I agree that the "fine step works" was annoying as fuck but the Addon did 90% of the work for you.

But for the example you can substitute H&F with virtually any mythic boss.
The result will be the same: Low skilled players needing extensive amounts of tries and practice until they FINALLY get [static mechanic].

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It isn't so much that the top level of play is unwelcoming it feels at least from my perspective that the first few steps of the game are to simple.

Both. True top level play is absurdly hard. I am an okay player, that can raid mythic just fine and pull my weight.
But seeing some of them insane parses often made me wonder whether we play the same game.
Even Blizzard admit that top level players tend to surprise them with what they can do.

But you are definitely right in the respect that [everything not raiding/M dungeons] is so pathetically braindead easy then they player succeeds if he smashes his head onto the keyboard. Ofc entering a Heroic+ raid will be a complete shock.
Suddenly mechanics matter. Performance matters. Reaction times matter.

Naturally, many people will step in and find out "nope, can't do it".

[Mazeari]

Well I used to do alot of 2's (wotlk/cata). With randoms. And if they showed promise I teached them a bit, most of them are still 2k/2.2k+ to this day. But PvP is shit these days, and 2 specifically is just a bitch.
So for me that would be a start...

[ItachiZaku]

If one OP character can carry a group, you're already doing it.

[Deleted]

It would have to be a shift in attitude towards growing the community. It needs people. Selfishness may win out,but active participation on both sides can help. Community should be the motivation.

I believe the thought of bringing all players together just doesn't work positive here.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Just make the game more challenging like it was in Classic and BC. Group Quests require a Group, get rid of crz so players can't be dicks without being ostracized by their realm. Atleast IMO this would start to help.

[Egregious]

How do we even define 'high skilled' and 'low skilled.' If we're thinking about the group finder for content like mythic dungeons or raiding there are basically two metrics that 'the community' uses to define you as one or the other. Item level and achievements. Now, obviously this has it's flaws. It's pretty cheap for example to get a boost for heroic archi - in fact in the EU you could buy and sell a game time token on ah and have change left over after your boost. Item level is a bit trickier to cheese but at the end of the day for everything but the most difficult content pvp gear is more than good enough - and much more time convenient to get.

Even using these metrics pugs more often than not fail anyway in trickier content but there are a few areas where it becomes annoying. Example: friend of mine recently returned to wow and cannot get in mythic dungeon pug groups. Why? Item level is too low (he's at about 695 or something so clearly not) This person raided end game content from TBC until MoP and is absolutely far more 'skilled' than most of the WoW population.

In conclusion all us wow nerds (lacking the social skills of normal people) basically judge people by a number or their ability to link an 'achievement' they very well may have bought. And then we have the nerve to describe this as being high skilled haha!

Everything about this is wrong. This game, for a moderately skilled player, is a breeze in terms of gearing.

High skilled people are obviously people who are mechanically able to execute a rotation, have a high level of class/game knowledge, and who possess general awareness of their surroundings. This can apply to either PvP or PvE. Low skilled people are conversely people whom are not able to balance a rotation, have poor class/game knowledge, and who struggle with general awareness of their surroundings.

I see plenty of Mythic dungeons rolling out all day around 700 ilvl, it should be no issue for your friend to close the remaining 5 ilvl gap.

No one thinks anyone is good for linking AotC. What they do think is that perhaps that person is not a mouth-breather.