[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Raiju]

I'm not upset, please stop the repeated strawman. I am disagreeing with a change on alpha.

[Imnick]

No, you are disagreeing with something constructed in your head.
The intended changes are written out clearly for you, you are disagreeing with something that does not match what they have said they are intending to do.

They already know it's not going to be tuned perfectly the first go, that's why they put it on a test server.

[Raiju]

No, you are disagreeing with something constructed in your head.
The intended changes are written out clearly for you, you are disagreeing with something that does not match what they have said they are intending to do.

They already know it's not going to be tuned perfectly the first go, that's why they put it on a test server.

They attempt to make it representative. That's why we have number changes f.ex. for DH's dps - because their numbers are low.

We have these initial numbers to go by, and that is what I will give feedback on primarily until it is changed (or until they say a change is coming in a later build explicitly - as that's the only time it matters)

You still at no point cover the actual point of this up to yet. The number of heals mechanically, how it compares in general to other specs. How it plays out, etc.

We already know we lose out on survival to druids, that's not surprising. We do and will lose to healing to spriests by their nature - but they lose more dps than us, and have a lot less mobility for it.

Compare to rogues & dh's. I know they destroyed shaman self healing (outside of ring/trinket abuse in hfc) in wod practically, but prior to that we were pretty self sufficient.

[Imnick]

The full wording of your "disagreement" was as follows:


Blizzard have already written that their intended design is for several listed specs, including Shadow Priests, to have their healing limited by mana and their DPS not constrained in any way by mana (the latter of which was true prior to this patch and is still true in this patch).
They have already stated that Shadow Priests will not have limitless free healing, so you were disagreeing with something that they have already stated they are going to change if it is true on the Alpha at present (which I have yet to be convinced it even is) and have already attempted to fix if it was previously true.

You did not even say "they do have strong limitless healing", you were disagreeing with the idea that they weren't meant to.
They are not meant to. Blizzard have already told you they are not.

[Raiju]

the 'meant' to was disqualified by the fact specs do have unlimited healing. a 'meant' by a forum member that is invalid when compared to the state of the game can be discarded.

- - - Updated - - -

nver mind. same as usual with you. Maybe some day you'll use the legion thread to actually discuss legion rather than semantics.

[Imnick]

The post in question was talking about the intention of the implemented changes to Shamans.
The Shaman changes were implemented because no hybrid spec is intended to have limitless strong healing. Shadow is also not intended to have limitless strong healing. Whether the initial wave of changes has yet achieved that is in question, but saying "Shadow Priests still have it", true or not, does not change the intention that no hybrid should have strong limitless healing, so has no relation to the question of whether the changes to Shamans were appropriate.

Neither Shamans nor Shadow Priests are supposed to have strong limitless healing. If the changes to Priests were inadequate it still does not invalidate the fact that the Shaman changes were justified by the fact that their design is that neither Shamans nor Priests should have this utility.

This is absolutely a Legion-centric topic because if you will argue with half-implemented changes by saying "ours should be better because the half-finished design of another class is" then it will obfuscate the discussion in this topic going forward. Their stated intention of design is what matters here, as it is what tuning in future patches will revolve around.

[Raiju]

To people who want to discuss our healing capabilities after the change:

I know while levelling I can easily get 4 heals off 2 mobs for free on my DH - the same would nearly oom me for an extra fight on the shaman. DH is not considered to have 'strong' healing generally, so why is the new shaman model weaker?

I'd say if the mana bar could sustain 10-12 that might be more reasonable.

thoughts?

[Khrux]

I think we should focus the feedback on shaman and not get into a discussion on what other classes can do and why can't we do it too. Its suppose to be an expac that removes all the homogenisation in favour of unique classes.

We could prob do with a reduction in mana costs and as this is the first pass at a mana utility bar the numbers are prob not tuned where they should be. Likewise priests and druids may also get their very generous mana costs upped.

Edit: DH just like priest and druid are not shamans, the discussion shouldn't be about citing other classes as a reason to give us more.

[Raiju]

Other classes are a measuring bar by which we can see whether we are far out of line while taking into context everyones toolkits and the class fantasy. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the harder 'boss' quest mobs in highmountain cause issues to survive simply by ooming, but havent done highmountain on teh shaman yet.

[Imnick]

Demon Hunters can proc a situational large heal by killing an enemy, which is great for solo sustain but less useful within individual PvP or PvE encounters (excepting those with constant streams of low health adds). Great for topping yourself up between pulls, less so for solo survivability.

Enhancement on the other hand doesn't need to wait for an enemy to die before they heal, so has much more flexibility, but the heal is not 25% of your maximum health.

The Demonic Appetite talent confuses this somewhat, as now your main dps spender as Havoc also has a chance to generate the orbs (with the same large amount of healing). Again, this is still a lot less reliable than being able to choose when to heal, but as the amount is very large and the orbs stay on the ground for some time it is not so much of an issue. Confusing the issue more is the fact that this talent also means that you will want to grab the orbs regardless of your health level, as they increase your DPS resource (and with an artifact trait, also the cooldowns on your major burst ability and a stun).
With this talent I think a Demon Hunter is unquestionably better than an Enhancement Shaman at pulling groups of mobs, killing them, and returning to full health. Enhancement's "outside of combat" regen simply doesn't compete, but I am sceptical still how they would match up during a prolonged boss encounter.
When fighting a boss or even likely a trash pack, a large amount of that healing will be overhealing, because you grab the orbs to increase your damage rather than as utility. When soloing a rare, you might control yourself and save them for healing, which probably would increase your survivability over a Shaman.

Frankly I think this is probably a case where the orbs from the Demon Hunter talent probably need to be scaled down to have reduced healing rather than Shamans need to be scaled up. A free 25% heal on a proc from your main DPS spender is probably just far too much.
I also remember that Paladins used to (and possibly still do) have a passive where killing an enemy would grant them a free boosted heal on themselves. Something like this would do a lot to make Enhancement compete in a solo environment with the survivability granted by those Demon Hunter orbs, but might risk some class homogenisation.


I am talking here only about the DPS spec, as the Tank spec revolves to a core standard around generating healing orbs and then eating them for their survivability while tanking, it doesn't seem appropriate to compare it to a DPS spec.

[pixelated senpai]

anywho.... thanks for the google doc up date @wordup much appreciated.

[Manu9]

Funnily enough, the DHs seem to have been overbuffed (Woops).
But honestly, I like the new healing system as an Enha - It just felt better for me while playing. Also about the5 max heals, I noticed that Mana regenerates fairly quickly, ergo it's probably 6 with no waiting.

[Coffeh]

Why doesn't Shadow Priest Shadow Mend cost mana AND insanity? Why doesn't Paladin's Flash of Light cost mana AND holy power? Why doesn't Druids specs heal cost mana AND lunar power or rage or energy? Etc, etc. Why is it only Shaman who get shafted this way? This change was meant to free up the maelstrom resource, and then that didn't happen at all. It nerfed your heals when you have maelstrom (which is pretty much always), and buffed a 2 second flat cast that only occurs mostly out of combat (when it's not needed). And people don't have a problem with this? Hysterical.

[Taeldorian]

Why doesn't Shadow Priest Shadow Mend cost mana AND insanity? Why doesn't Paladin's Flash of Light cost mana AND holy power? Why doesn't druids specs heal cost mana AND lunar power or rage or energy? Etc, etc. Why is it only shaman who get shafted this way? This change was meant to free up the maelstrom resource, and then that didn't happen at all. It nerfed your heals when you have maelstrom (which is pretty much always), and buffed a 2 second flat cast that only occurs mostly out of combat (when it's not needed). And people don't have a problem with this? Hysterical.

Where does it say healing surge costs mana AND maelstrom? I read that it only costs mana, can you provide a source for this? Going to go back and read the front page but I'm positive it said mana, not mana and maelstrom.

Edit: Nope. Healing surge costs 18% base mana only. No idea where you got that maelstrom thing from.

[Coffeh]

Where does it say healing surge costs mana AND maelstrom? I read that it only costs mana, can you provide a source for this? Going to go back and read the front page but I'm positive it said mana, not mana and maelstrom.

Edit: Nope. Healing surge costs 18% base mana only. No idea where you got that maelstrom thing from.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or don't know how to read.

[nazrakin]

Where does it say healing surge costs mana AND maelstrom? I read that it only costs mana, can you provide a source for this? Going to go back and read the front page but I'm positive it said mana, not mana and maelstrom.

Edit: Nope. Healing surge costs 18% base mana only. No idea where you got that maelstrom thing from.

It does not require maelstrom to cast, it does require maelstrom to cast instantly (which is pretty much the only time an Enh sham will want to cast it).

[Imnick]

Healing Surge costs mana and will also drain 20 Maelstrom to make itself instant cast. It can still be cast with no Maelstrom, it just won't be instant, and a nominal cost for an instant heal is a fair trade.
When Healing Surge is not instant, you must stop attacking and moving in order to cast it, which frankly is probably a higher DPS cost than 20 maelstrom, as Rockbiter generates half of that back in a single swing with no artifact traits spent on it, and you can use Rockbiter twice in the time it takes to use Healing Surge.

Shadow Mend only costs mana, however the Shadow Priest resource "insanity" drains itself every second (while you are in void form), so often while casting it you will in fact be losing Insanity.
Flash of Light does not cost Holy Power because it cannot be cast instantly. It is also a weaker heal. It would also be very silly for it to cost Holy Power, because Holy Power is a combo point system, not a bar, so costing even one would be massively more cost than Shamans need to pay.

Not all classes are exactly the same by design, because having every class have a literally identical heal would be boring and is the direction Blizzard are trying to escape from. They are all similar enough, and all obey the same rules.

[Taeldorian]

I'm not sure if you're trolling or don't know how to read.

Calm yourself down. No need to get upset because I missed something.

- - - Updated - - -
@Imnick Agreed. Although this does kind of put us at a disadvantage compared to those classes I get the need for something different for everyone. I also think they should give us something other classes don't have as a defensive to compensate.

[Coffeh]

Healing Surge costs mana and will also drain 20 Maelstrom to make itself instant cast. It can still be cast with no Maelstrom, it just won't be instant, and a nominal cost for an instant heal is a fair trade.
When Healing Surge is not instant, you must stop attacking and moving in order to cast it, which frankly is probably a higher DPS cost than 20 maelstrom, as Rockbiter generates half of that back in a single swing with no artifact traits spent on it, and you can use Rockbiter twice in the time it takes to use Healing Surge.

Shadow Mend only costs mana, however the Shadow Priest resource "insanity" drains itself every second (while you are in void form), so often while casting it you will in fact be losing Insanity.
Flash of Light does not cost Holy Power because it cannot be cast instantly. It is also a weaker heal. It would also be very silly for it to cost Holy Power, because Holy Power is a combo point system, not a bar, so costing even one would be massively more cost than Shamans need to pay.

Not all classes are exactly the same by design, because having every class have a literally identical heal would be boring and is the direction Blizzard are trying to escape from. They are all similar enough, and all obey the same rules.

Shadow Mend is a faster heal, and heals for more. On a class with a constant shield they can cast on themselves every 8 seconds. Yeah, they drain insanity during void form. So what? Enh is a gcd-locked class. Any heal automatically cuts on their dps too. As far as Paladin, let me ask you this. What would the Paladin reaction be if FoL suddenly consumed 1 holy power to become instant? Would they like it? I have a feeling no. Bar vs. 'combo point'. No difference. The difference is in your head. All classes work the same, pretty much: build a resource, consume a resource. And of course druids get godlike heals with no penalty because they're druids, and Blizzard loves them.

The maelstrom consumption of healing surge has to be removed. Period. It's a terrible design right now. It's the worst of both worlds. There's a lot of options. Make it instant baseline, but nerf the %healing a little. Or make it cost less mana if you have maelstrom, but not consume that maelstrom. Whatever, I could come up with a hundred suggestions. But it can't fuck you in both ways of being limited by mana, and also reduce your dps by both consuming a gcd and your damage resource.

[Imnick]

What we get in exchange the the heal taking maelstrom is that it is instant cast and a higher spell coefficient than everyone's except shadow priests (who apply a DoT for half of the amount healed, unless talented and even then only when self casted).

Shadow Mend is a 700% potency heal, 350% potency damage, 1.5 second cast.
Healing Surge is a 550% potency, 2 second cast.
Flash of Light is a 425% potency, 1.5 second cast.
Healing Touch is a 360% potency, 2.5 second cast (wow, that's bad).

Everyone else's heal is weaker than ours (Shadow untalented is stronger up front, but weaker after the DoT ticks down). Druids even have a longer cast time. Flash of Light and Shadow Mend are both very fast casting spells, but not as fast as an instant cast, and both probably pay a bigger opportunity cost (Shadow often loses ticks of Insanity, Retribution loses autoattacks).
If you asked me to evaluate then frankly I'd probably say that Enhance's heal is the second best of all these listed (with Shadow Mend being the best, just because the DoT doesn't apply if cast outside of combat). Balance unquestionably has a worse heal here than Enhancement, whether it costs Astral Power or not.

What's more important though is that there's variety. Everyone is capable of healing themselves in a pinch, but it doesn't work exactly the same way.


e: and in response to the most recent post... what you are saying is just ridiculous.
One Holy Power and 20 Maelstrom are not "exactly the same". Use your head.
We can generate 20 Maelstrom at literally any time by hitting a button twice which has no cooldown.
Holy Power on the other hand can only be generated by spells with cooldowns. Crusader strike has a 4.5 second cooldown. Blade of Justice has a 12 second cooldown.

Yes Ret Paladins would be angry if their heal cost Holy Power, and they'd be right to, because their resource isn't instantly generated for free at any time. Maelstrom is. You are not at all comparing like with like.