[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Walterion]

I do welcome the change to Health funnel, instead of killing us in 2 casts, now it takes 1/4th of your HP over 6 seconds and gives the demon twice the amount of HP drained.

I guess someone realized that draining 42% of your max HP over 6 seconds was a terrible idea to begin with.

[Soulzar]

I do welcome the change to Health funnel, instead of killing us in 2 casts, now it takes 1/4th of your HP over 6 seconds and gives the demon twice the amount of HP drained.

I guess someone realized that draining 42% of your max HP over 6 seconds was a terrible idea to begin with.

Last builds version was a pretty huge buff from what it was if you consider the heal and not the cost. This version is even better though as it heals for a bit more and kills us less!

[Walterion]

Last builds version was a pretty huge buff from what it was if you consider the heal and not the cost. This version is even better though as it heals for a bit more and kills us less!

I'm okay with the heal, as long as it doesn't kill us in the progress of doing so. This current version of the spell is probably the best one yet, in comparison with all the other versions of this spell in the game.

Unrelated, I do wonder if Demonology will gain something out of Enslave Demon, considering how they removed a lot of the restrictions to encourage the usage of it in Dungeons/Raids/Outdoors. Would be cool to test that stuff deeply and throw feedback about it as well.

[Soulzar]

Unrelated, I do wonder if Demonology will gain something out of Enslave Demon, considering how they removed a lot of the restrictions to encourage the usage of it in Dungeons/Raids/Outdoors. Would be cool to test that stuff deeply and throw feedback about it as well.

I was wondering that too. I guess its easily possible that depending on how they do this new tuning, just having Empowerment and talents like Synergy effect them may be enough of a benefit that they could be worth using over baseline pet in certain situations.

I was really happy to see this as something they are actively doing. When I first heard of next expac being legion I was super excited to finally have demons around again for this flavour spell. In my quest testing, not a single demon I encountered was enslavable and it really bummed me out.

Also means that goSac will need to remain somewhat of a good option, if Enslaving demons is a gameplay they are going to promote.

Highlighting Enslaving demons in dungeons is amazing, when thinking about CM's. Being able to Enslave may be very strong

[gruxxar]

just a side-note, I was able to enslave demons in the start quest of Aszuna!

[Drakile]

Well, it depends a lot on what further changes come down the line. The Destro artifact talents are very much incomplete, Demo's Fel Skin artifact talent is obviously going to need a revision, and Afflic being really good at self-heals is entirely in character (plus it's a very mana hungry spec that needs to Life Tap more). So we'll see where thing stand in another update or three.

It also depends on what situation you're talking about. Demonic Empowerment and Soul Link mean Demo will have amazing pet tanks for solo PvE work. Soul Link's passive 20% DR (don't overlook that) is also super useful in raids for taking the edge off that unavoidable raid damage. Now, PvP? Yeah, Demo's got less of the on-demand burst healing that PvP really wants. So it's probably not going to be the arena spec of choice. Can I live with that? Very likely.

Yeah I suppose we will have to wait and see, part of me really hopes that Demo will be viable in PvP but currently I am not sure how that will pan out.

[Kaeth]

The exact text of the new Soul Leech is as follows:

All single-target damage done by you and your minions grants you and your pet shadowy shields that absorb 15% of the damage dealt for 15 sec, up to 15% of maximum health.

Has anyone had a chance to play with this yet? Are your imps and dreadstalkers, as well as your primary pet, triggering Soul Leech from their attacks? Based upon this deliberate wording change, that would seem to be the intent. Though overall these changes would still add up to a nerf to Soul Link, it could be a buff to Soul Leech for demonology versus its previous incarnation.

At least one bright side to the change. Please let us know if it's working like this in alpha; I don't have alpha access.

[wooters]

ofc it include your imps and dreadstalkers... demo would be at a massive disadvantage if it wasn`t. it should include beholder and guards as well. also minions

[Kirroth]

It's critical to realize that unlike the old Fel Armor, which was completely passive, the new Soul Leech depends on actively doing damage. Yes, you don't passively get 10% extra healing received, but you do get 15% Leech from all single target damage.

Now, it's a Leech with a qualifier, in that it will only heal you up to the 15% Soul Leech shield cap. But consider that in a raid environment. You're blasting away at the boss so you quickly charge up to the full 15% shield. Then you catch a little raid damage for 10% of your health. That all comes out of the shield, your healers don't even notice the difference, and you charge it back up quickly just through your normal rotation. That's the tankiness the Devs are offering with this. Not massive durability under focused attacks, but constant resistance to minor damage.

On top of that, if you want more out of it, there's the Demon Skin talent. With it you've got a raised shield cap, the shield recharges even when you're not actively DPSing, and you never have to worry about it dropping off. You've effectively got your normal 1%-100% health, and then a special 101%-120% bar that always gets deducted first and recharges both passively and from damage done. That's fairly significant.

Oh, here's a minor quality of life point. Demon Skin will combo well with Burning Rush for miscellaneous non-combat movement. A good 7 seconds before it starts to cut into real health damage? Yes, thank you. Getting to that mailbox will be easier than ever.

[avahle]

@Kirroth
But they are offering that tankiness at the expense/cost of mobility. Constant resistance to minor damage as you put it is not worth mobility in a raid encounter.

[Esinar]

For me, it's not really about comparing Soul Leech/Demon Skin to Fel Armor, it's more was it really necessary to remove Fel Armor? Like what difference would it have made to keep it. I mean if they wanted to remove the healing sure, but the 10% extra health gave us the sense of being tougher or more durable than other classes. Now we're on par with other classes just with a shield. The extra 10% health wouldn't of made that much of a difference and we'd still keep the feeling of being a stamina-heavy DPS.

[Arganis]

So yeah I'm not really understanding the logic behind the removal of Fel Armour. Was it really necessary to remove it?

What do others think of this change?

There is no logic, this is a straight up nerf disguised as a design change. Reminds me of when they removed soul link from warlocks in WLK and called it progress.

[Kirroth]

But they are offering that tankiness at the expense/cost of mobility. Constant resistance to minor damage as you put it is not worth mobility in a raid encounter.

How it is coming at the expense of mobility? I don't see it that way, could you explain your reasoning?

[avahle]

How it is coming at the expense of mobility? I don't see it that way, could you explain your reasoning?

I am saying it in terms of Blizz's fantasy for what warlocks are supposed to be. We are to be this less mobile more tanky caster. And the defense, mobility product we have right now is something I am not happy with.

[PickleballAce]

How it is coming at the expense of mobility? I don't see it that way, could you explain your reasoning?

There was a blue post in the past few weeks explaining the reasoning behind the removal of Demonic Circle as a baseline ability. The idea was Mages were "slippery" so they get the movement spells, while Warlocks were supposed to be "tanky", so we get the survivability spells.

Of course that doesn't explain why Mages get to keep baseline Ice Block AND get ex-talent Ice Barrier as baseline considering they're "tanky" spells. But that's none of our business.

Here you go:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/4...uttons/#post81

Though it still exists as a talent, Demonic Portal is actually an example of removing weaknesses in a way that harms class differentiation. Going back to BC, one of the core differences between the two pure offensive casters, warlock and mage, was that warlocks were far more durable and "tanky," while mages were frail but had more mobility and escape tools (Nova+Blink being central to that). Giving an instant teleport/escape ability like Demonic Portal to warlocks did a great deal to blur that distinction, and the class's design might have gone in a quite different direction without it.

[jackvii]

There was a blue post in the past few weeks explaining the reasoning behind the removal of Demonic Circle as a baseline ability. The idea was Mages were "slippery" so they get the movement spells, while Warlocks were supposed to be "tanky", so we get the survivability spells.

Sad, it's pretty shit reasoning given escaping snares-interrupts is the only method of beating melee. You don't tank in PvP, if you can't escape you just get shut down for however long it takes for you to die.

Interestingly no melee class got it's gap-closer/interrupt/stun toolset kicked down to pre-BC levels. Woe be to the Warlocks leveling on pvp servers.

[Gnarilex]

making baseline abilities talents feels like a cop out. The whole 75 tier doesn't even make any sense. The one on the left is a personal demonic gateway, the middle talent is the only movement speed increase for the entire class, and the left is an absorb shield. There's absolutely no theme to it outside of random utility skills. Demonic Circle should go back to being baseline, Burning Rush should remain where it is, and I don't know what they should do with Dark Pact but it doesn't feel right in that tier.

[Esinar]

Though it still exists as a talent, Demonic Portal is actually an example of removing weaknesses in a way that harms class differentiation. Going back to BC, one of the core differences between the two pure offensive casters, warlock and mage, was that warlocks were far more durable and "tanky," while mages were frail but had more mobility and escape tools (Nova+Blink being central to that). Giving an instant teleport/escape ability like Demonic Portal to warlocks did a great deal to blur that distinction, and the class's design might have gone in a quite different direction without it.

Yeah I remember reading this. To me this explanation is based entirely on a PvP fantasy, and whilst I understand what Blizzard are trying to say, their logic is fundamentally flawed. If Demonic Circle was completely removed I'd get why they would say this, but as long as it's there as a talent and there's no "real" competition on that row for PvP its ALWAYS going to get chosen. This means that the change is only really hindering PvE - which then makes their reasoning moot. Demonic Circle I've found to be 100 times more useful than Demonic Gateway, but now, due to Circle being on the same row as Dark Pact - I don't see when I'd ever take it, unless it was to cheese some mechanic.

If they want warlocks to have less mobility and to be more "tanky" couldn't there just be a compromise? Such as increasing the CD of Circle to 45-60 seconds or something? I just don't really get it. I think the only reason they've made it into some pain-in-the-ass 1 button spell is because they've forced it into the talent tree due to flawed logic. Sometimes it's like they're afraid to think outside the box.

[PickleballAce]

Yeah I remember reading this. To me this explanation is based entirely on a PvP fantasy, and whilst I understand what Blizzard are trying to say, their logic is fundamentally flawed. If Demonic Circle was completely removed I'd get why they would say this, but as long as it's there as a talent and there's no "real" competition on that row for PvP its ALWAYS going to get chosen. This means that the change is only really hindering PvE - which then makes their reasoning moot. Demonic Circle I've found to be 100 times more useful than Demonic Gateway, but now, due to Circle being on the same row as Dark Pact - I don't see when I'd ever take it, unless it was to cheese some mechanic.

If they want warlocks to have less mobility and to be more "tanky" couldn't there just be a compromise? Such as increasing the CD of Circle to 45-60 seconds or something? I just don't really get it. I think the only reason they've made it into some pain-in-the-ass 1 button spell is because they've forced it into the talent tree due to flawed logic. Sometimes it's like they're afraid to think outside the box.

What also chaps my ass about this is that they gave Monks a shameless rip-off of (a fairly iconic) Demonic Circle spell in the form of Transcendence, and while we lose what has been a baseline ability for us for years, Monks of course get to keep their copy-pasta spell.

[Deleted]

i find pretty hypocritical of blizz to make change like this, removing 10% hp and healing and then change soul leech(the talent) into a "shield recharge" that gives you 1% max hp shield every 1 sec and increase the shield by another 5%(big woop), with the pretence of making locks more "tanky" when it really does anything but make them more tank, while mages still get ice block and ice barrier, 2 abilities that are arguably many times better than most of our options AND are baseline, if they really wanted to make locks more "tanky" then it seems rather counterproductive to remove the 10% hp and healing and then gives us a talent that barely does anything for us, if anything the "shield recharge" of demon armor needs to be atleast double and should atleast make the shield go up to 30% max hp. oh well, just another in a long line idiotic descisions from blizz, i guess they have to make it craptastic like everything in that tier.