[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Granyala]

But on the bright side, minor imbalances aren't much of a problem.

They can add Chocobo cart racing, they can add this. :x

Well that would entirely depend on how challenging these mobs are supposed to be.

I agree that they design so much fluff (diadem/Pokebattles) so the resources should theoretically be there, since FF has rather limited amount of classes (compared to WoWs specs).

[Lathais]

You know the buff/debuff system I talked about? With certain debuffs up on the mob, your abilities could heal you/give you damage mitigation buffs. You trade DPS for using those moves with those debuffs up though, so it's not free.

So you want them to completely redesign the entire combat system and the re-balance every single boss in the game? I mean, these are not bad ideas for the next Online FF game, but suggesting an entire redesign of the current system is absurd.

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You get credit, but you don't get max credit.
Not as a DPS.
It might be easier as a healer, I don't know, never tested it much since I ignored Hunts and all subsequent alterations they might have made.

My wife plays a NIN and she frequently gets max credit solo as well, so again, not too sure what you guys are on about here. My other RL friend is a tank and he gets full credit solo as well, so really not sure what you guys are doing wrong to not get full credit solo.

[Granyala]

So you want them to completely redesign the entire combat system and the re-balance every single boss in the game? I mean, these are not bad ideas for the next Online FF game, but suggesting an entire redesign of the current system is absurd.

My wife plays a NIN and she frequently gets max credit solo as well, so again, not too sure what you guys are on about here. My other RL friend is a tank and he gets full credit solo as well, so really not sure what you guys are doing wrong to not get full credit solo.

1) No he wants that subsystem only applicable to his FFA style elite mobs. All other content and classes would remain untouched, if I understood correctly.

2) They must have changed sth then. Back when hunts were new, you didn't stand a chance if you weren't in a group.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Treasure maps, I always sell these actually. I know you can gamble and get more out of them if you do them but I prefer safe & steady income over playing the lottery.

I hate hunts. Always did. The less I have to bother with it the better. Although the QQ in them chats because some impatientent player pulled "too soon" is always hilarious.

I think you don't seem to understand that the relic simply isn't a priority for me. I don't do content I'd normally not do (like hunts) just to advance on it. Whether I get it now or when 3.3 hits ... or in the next expansion when they nerf it... I don't really care.
Not a hardcore raider, no pressure to gear up. ^^


Hunts and FATEs already do that. People playing together w/o any sort of demand regarding performance / loot drama etc.
I see no point to these skill chains at all to be honest.

Treasure maps aren't gambling, at least not the ones that drop the unidentified objects. They might be gambling if you're talking about 1 or 2 but I usually do 10-20 at a time and I always come out ahead. I sell the unhidden leather maps because those ARE gambling for the nutkin, pretty much the only thing out of them worth any money, super rare and worth a ton. If you do wyvernskin and dragonskin maps though, you WILL come out ahead, especially if you craft. Crafting the new antique leather and rugs into that expedition gear has allowed me to more than triple my investment on maps. Than thavnarian leather and cloth is still worth a lot as well, and you usually get several from a large set of maps.

Aside from all of that, you get a lot of crafting mats, most of which are HQ. Those also sell for a lot.

But then again, if people stopped selling their maps, I wouldn't get them for a price that let's me largely profit, so keep selling away, I've gotten 17 shells and 10 ore from maps alone, so I'm close to my second relic just doing what I normally do.

[Wrecktangle]

Not w/o extreme homogenization and giving the necessary tools (Dispels/Interrupts/CDs) to every class, effectively making every class the same.
Precisely why I said "challenging solo content will not work"

Let me throw this curveball at you (and others if you want to redirect the conversation to something that *might* be more productive:

What is homogenization? Is Phlebotimize (DRG) the same thing as Goring Blade (PLD)?

Here's my belief on the topic. Homogenization isn't a terrible thing as long as there are clear aesthetic differences. I'd argue its 100% more important to have balance (as in all tools available to all classes) rather than immensely differing gameplay styles.

Think of it like this. If PLD and WAR had the exact same defensive cooldowns mechanically (but were aesthetically different), which would you play and why? What if they had the exact same DPS abilities mechanically, but their effects were just different gfx/animations?

To me, I'd play whichever class matched me thematically. I believe that the there is definitely room for more homogenization as well as room for more synergy.

I'll use a common example seen in WoW about Ret Paladins (my main) compared to Warriors. They say that sometimes we're too close and as a result we need to have abilities removed for class identity. I say why? Why can't I have a charge move like them and just give it a different effect/gfx? I'm ok with that, especially considering the parity the 2 classes have with each other.

Vindictus is a lot of fun in that regard, too. A bit rough around the edges, but still fun for those times when you want that MMO "feel" but want a more rewarding solo experience.

Vindictus was a big let down to me. C9 was much better than Vindictus IMO. I genuinely enjoyed that game and the classes were an absolute blast to play (Played Warden, Blade Dancer, and Erta). Both games were really repetitive and grindy, but C9 just oozed style and had an amazing combat engine.

BNS has a different, but equally good engine, but on a much better framework. I find the PVE more reasonable in BNS, even if slaughtering endless hordes in C9 was fun.

[Lathais]

Let me throw this curveball at you (and others if you want to redirect the conversation to something that *might* be more productive:

What is homogenization? Is Phlebotimize (DRG) the same thing as Goring Blade (PLD)?

Here's my belief on the topic. Homogenization isn't a terrible thing as long as there are clear aesthetic differences. I'd argue its 100% more important to have balance (as in all tools available to all classes) rather than immensely differing gameplay styles.

Think of it like this. If PLD and WAR had the exact same defensive cooldowns mechanically (but were aesthetically different), which would you play and why? What if they had the exact same DPS abilities mechanically, but their effects were just different gfx/animations?

To me, I'd play whichever class matched me thematically. I believe that the there is definitely room for more homogenization as well as room for more synergy.

I'll use a common example seen in WoW about Ret Paladins (my main) compared to Warriors. They say that sometimes we're too close and as a result we need to have abilities removed for class identity. I say why? Why can't I have a charge move like them and just give it a different effect/gfx? I'm ok with that, especially considering the parity the 2 classes have with each other.



Vindictus was a big let down to me. C9 was much better than Vindictus IMO. I genuinely enjoyed that game and the classes were an absolute blast to play (Played Warden, Blade Dancer, and Erta). Both games were really repetitive and grindy, but C9 just oozed style and had an amazing combat engine.

BNS has a different, but equally good engine, but on a much better framework. I find the PVE more reasonable in BNS, even if slaughtering endless hordes in C9 was fun.

Then there would be no reason to level both. If they were mechanically the same, but just visually different, I know many many people who would just not play the game. All classes being mechanically the same is boring. Even though they look different, they feel the same. What's the point in even having different classes leveled separately at that point? May as well just have 3 classes, Tank/Healer/DPS, with different visual options for each one. Hell, let people mix and match at that point. I like the way X ability looks on PLD but like Y ability better on WAR, so let me play Tank and then pick individually what abilities I want from each tank class, since they are all functionally identical anyway.

Classes need their own identity, they need to feel different, not just look different. A NIN is not just a Monk with daggers, he is functionally entirely different.

[Granyala]

Treasure maps aren't gambling, at least not the ones that drop the unidentified objects. They might be gambling if you're talking about 1 or 2 but I usually do 10-20 at a time and I always come out ahead.

Wyvernskin maps were worth 30K or lower before the relic said "hi".
Now they are worth around 70K.

Sure, you might get crafted mats that are worth more in total if you manage to sell them. You also might get only NQ crap.
I don't craft at 3*** level, so the mats are probably worthless to me personally.
Selling map = guaranteed profit.

You're welcome. :P

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Think of it like this. If PLD and WAR had the exact same defensive cooldowns mechanically (but were aesthetically different), which would you play and why? What if they had the exact same DPS abilities mechanically, but their effects were just different gfx/animations?

Neither, because I fucking hate the facing requirement of the WAR cone and the slow TP reg. Such a PITA.

But I get what you are hinting at.
DRK and PLD both play roughly the same. Same mana reg mechanics, same def cooldowns, I just like the DRK aesthetic much better.
Seriously that balloon popping "pffft... bang" of Flash of Light is ..... embarrassing once you have gotten used to unleash. :X

So I too would choose the class according to aesthetics.

But imho the game loses A LOT if all the classes are the same. There is a difference between playing a disc priest and a druid and a holy priest. There is a difference between playing a scholar and a white mage. (now less so than back in ARR)

While vastly different classes do make balance harder, they make leveling an alt exciting. If all classes are the same and play the same we would almost all stick to one character.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Wyvernskin maps were worth 30K or lower before the relic said "hi".
Now they are worth around 70K.

Sure, you might get crafted mats that are worth more in total if you manage to sell them. You also might get only NQ crap.
I don't craft at 3*** level, so the mats are probably worthless to me personally.
Selling map = guaranteed profit.

You're welcome. :P

As I said, all of this "might" only applies if you do 1 or 2 maps. Do 10-20 at a time and yo WILL get more out of them than you paid even if you can't craft. You'll get a few bad luck maps, and some very good luck ones. It's the law of AVERAGES. Luck only applies in small numbers. Crafting just ups that value even more. Maps are 100k-110k on my server and I make extremely good money. Unhidden maps are 600k so those ALONE buy me 6 more maps.

[dope_danny]

Finally finished the relic slog, just 1000 more esos for the 230 relic and after that just gotta chase after my leg piece to have all BiS on my NIN and time to start on getting DRK up to date

[Wrecktangle]

Then there would be no reason to level both. If they were mechanically the same, but just visually different, I know many many people who would just not play the game. All classes being mechanically the same is boring. Even though they look different, they feel the same. What's the point in even having different classes leveled separately at that point? May as well just have 3 classes, Tank/Healer/DPS, with different visual options for each one. Hell, let people mix and match at that point. I like the way X ability looks on PLD but like Y ability better on WAR, so let me play Tank and then pick individually what abilities I want from each tank class, since they are all functionally identical anyway.

Classes need their own identity, they need to feel different, not just look different. A NIN is not just a Monk with daggers, he is functionally entirely different.

I agree with your overall point, I don't necessarily agree with your overarching statement that you know *many* people would just not play. I think that's a gross over-dramatization.

Dare I say that your proposition sounds infinitely more intriguing than what currently exists in FF14?

If I want to play PLD, I am knowingly gimping myself to get the aesthetic I want, but with the performance of a sub-par class with very boring mechanics.

At least your proposition gives me some degree of personalization, control, and balance.

Now with that out of the way, I do agree that they need to be functionally different, but I think that a larger degree of homogenization is needed, and can be done with minimal impact to to that core differences of each job.

Neither, because I fucking hate the facing requirement of the WAR cone and the slow TP reg. Such a PITA.

But I get what you are hinting at.
DRK and PLD both play roughly the same. Same mana reg mechanics, same def cooldowns, I just like the DRK aesthetic much better.
Seriously that balloon popping "pffft... bang" of Flash of Light is ..... embarrassing once you have gotten used to unleash. :X

So I too would choose the class according to aesthetics.

But imho the game loses A LOT if all the classes are the same. There is a difference between playing a disc priest and a druid and a holy priest. There is a difference between playing a scholar and a white mage. (now less so than back in ARR)

While vastly different classes do make balance harder, they make leveling an alt exciting. If all classes are the same and play the same we would almost all stick to one character.

I could argue that while your description of WoW is accurate, I'm not sold the existing notion of leveling alts in FF14 is a positive metric. My proposal almost CERTAINLY would not improve it, but I think that it wouldn't make an abysmally terrible experience any more terrible, but I could be wrong lol.

However the entire point of this exercise was to see if there could be a general consensus on whether varying levels of homogenization could work.

[Florena]

C9 was a lot of fun, too. Seems relatively little-known, though. The combat system was a lot of fun, it seemed like if you really wanted to master it you could end up with the "feel" of playing MvC3 or Guilty Gear or something, just wailing on shit with 87-hit combos or something. (Well, not actually that many, but hey)



On one hand, people would inevitably whine, "But then there would only be 3 classes: Tank, Healer and DPS!" (Ignoring sub-classes like "ranged DPS" or something)

On the other hand...it'd be kinda cool if you could pick "Tank" and there were a bunch of different aesthetic effects for each ability that you could pick and choose from. Run around wielding a big Warrior axe and have the Unleash spell effect for your PBAoE and...well, you get the idea.

That's likely taking the idea TOO far, but it's a neat thought.

Not that it would necessarily work in ff xiv but I liked in DCUO how every class had a dps role and one non dps roll, and could choose any weapon type tp specialize in. I feel like one of xiv's weaknesses is the lack of talents, specs or other customization within a job. Every black mage has the exact same tool set etc.

[Wrecktangle]

C9 was a lot of fun, too. Seems relatively little-known, though. The combat system was a lot of fun, it seemed like if you really wanted to master it you could end up with the "feel" of playing MvC3 or Guilty Gear or something, just wailing on shit with 87-hit combos or something. (Well, not actually that many, but hey)



On one hand, people would inevitably whine, "But then there would only be 3 classes: Tank, Healer and DPS!" (Ignoring sub-classes like "ranged DPS" or something)

On the other hand...it'd be kinda cool if you could pick "Tank" and there were a bunch of different aesthetic effects for each ability that you could pick and choose from. Run around wielding a big Warrior axe and have the Unleash spell effect for your PBAoE and...well, you get the idea.

That's likely taking the idea TOO far, but it's a neat thought.

Haha it looks like your post came too late.

You should have seen my buddys Slayer combo, that thing wrecked, and was super flashy and long. Easily like 30 hits. Usually killed me if I blew my escapes too soon.

BNS is a lot like that for certain classes. My assassin combo is a solid 30+ inputs and super rewarding to pull it off.

Back on topic though real quick -> it almost sounds like I opened some solid dialogue here about the worth of homogenization vs. customization vs. gameplay identity. Which one do people actually value most?

Unique gameplay? Customization? Balance?

[Lathais]

Haha it looks like your post came too late.

You should have seen my buddys Slayer combo, that thing wrecked, and was super flashy and long. Easily like 30 hits. Usually killed me if I blew my escapes too soon.

BNS is a lot like that for certain classes. My assassin combo is a solid 30+ inputs and super rewarding to pull it off.

Back on topic though real quick -> it almost sounds like I opened some solid dialogue here about the worth of homogenization vs. customization vs. gameplay identity. Which one do people actually value most?

Unique gameplay? Customization? Balance?

Different people obviously value them differently. However, FFXIV obviously values Unique gameplay for each class, since each class is so different. Other games obviously value different things. That's the whole point, FFXIV is this way, the people that play it like it that way, other games are different. If you want different, play a different game, don't yell at the game you play to change in to another game.

[Deleted]

I'm using it to level up my tank classes, since it's almost guaranteed to be Adventurer in Need, thus bonus xp (one clear via roulettes is between 1/4-1/3 of a level). Not to mention there is a fair chance of getting newbie bonus in there for additional poetics.

I suppose the one possible downside is said newbie who wants to watch all cutscenes in Praetorium, but I've yet to encounter that.

Oh that was a lot of fun, the run was basically like a movie, cutscene after cutscene would play because the group already killed two bosses ahead! :3

I had no idea they went so overboard with the cutscenes in there, sorry! At least the other seven members got their noob bonus from me Gods, one of the best systems in this game I have seen so far is the newbie bonus.

[Granyala]

Maps are 100k-110k on my server and I make extremely good money. Unhidden maps are 600k so those ALONE buy me 6 more maps.

What are "unhidden maps" I've never heard of them before.

[Kazgrel]

Oh that was a lot of fun, the run was basically like a movie, cutscene after cutscene would play because the group already killed two bosses ahead! :3

I had no idea they went so overboard with the cutscenes in there, sorry! At least the other seven members got their noob bonus from me Gods, one of the best systems in this game I have seen so far is the newbie bonus.

Honestly, my quip about newbies watching the cut scenes is a moot point; most folks in there that have made it into Heavensward content are so overgeared for those dungeons that it could easily be 5-6 manned, so if there's one or two new folks watching cut scenes (assuming they aren't all tanks/healers), it's honestly a non-issue for those of us there for poetics.

The only downside, really, is the new person doesn't get to see all the fights. But they pretty much end in under a minute, so generally don't miss much. Only one that might even require a semblance of explaining is the first of the two fights with last boss in Castrum.

Long story short, don't feel bad at all about providing that newbie bonus. We don't mind one bit!

[Kaelwryn]

What are "unhidden maps" I've never heard of them before.

Green maps that you can get from doing any of the other maps.

[Wrecktangle]

Different people obviously value them differently. However, FFXIV obviously values Unique gameplay for each class, since each class is so different. Other games obviously value different things. That's the whole point, FFXIV is this way, the people that play it like it that way, other games are different. If you want different, play a different game, don't yell at the game you play to change in to another game.

Whoa, pump your brakes. No one here is "yelling". We are having a civilized discussion. Yes FF14 may value unique gameplay the most, but that doesn't mean it should or that it can't change, especially if people like it, but may be interested in pursuing a different line of gameplay. Just an FYI, I play FF14, but that doesn't mean that I like it the way it is and think it's perfect. I like a lot of things about the game, its combat model? Not so much, but I am still a player and I still like the OVERALL game.

This has nothing to do with forcing FF14 to be more like X game. It has to do with a flaw in FF14, and various ways to address it, not all ideas could be solutions, but forums are for discussion. I happen to find a significant amount of fun in discussing these things. The would be, could be, and should be's.

[Lathais]

Whoa, pump your brakes. No one here is "yelling". We are having a civilized discussion. Yes FF14 may value unique gameplay the most, but that doesn't mean it should or that it can't change, especially if people like it, but may be interested in pursuing a different line of gameplay.

This has nothing to do with forcing FF14 to be more like X game. It has to do with a flaw in FF14, and various ways to address it, not all ideas could be solutions, but forums are for discussion. I happen to find a significant amount of fun in discussing these things. The would be, could be, and should be's.

What flaw? That's what I don't get. Where's the flaw? It's not a flaw, it's a design decision. That's the way this game is. Other games do things differently.

[Sorrior]

Let me throw this curveball at you (and others if you want to redirect the conversation to something that *might* be more productive:

What is homogenization? Is Phlebotimize (DRG) the same thing as Goring Blade (PLD)?

Here's my belief on the topic. Homogenization isn't a terrible thing as long as there are clear aesthetic differences. I'd argue its 100% more important to have balance (as in all tools available to all classes) rather than immensely differing gameplay styles.

Think of it like this. If PLD and WAR had the exact same defensive cooldowns mechanically (but were aesthetically different), which would you play and why? What if they had the exact same DPS abilities mechanically, but their effects were just different gfx/animations?

To me, I'd play whichever class matched me thematically. I believe that the there is definitely room for more homogenization as well as room for more synergy.

I'll use a common example seen in WoW about Ret Paladins (my main) compared to Warriors. They say that sometimes we're too close and as a result we need to have abilities removed for class identity. I say why? Why can't I have a charge move like them and just give it a different effect/gfx? I'm ok with that, especially considering the parity the 2 classes have with each other.



Vindictus was a big let down to me. C9 was much better than Vindictus IMO. I genuinely enjoyed that game and the classes were an absolute blast to play (Played Warden, Blade Dancer, and Erta). Both games were really repetitive and grindy, but C9 just oozed style and had an amazing combat engine.

BNS has a different, but equally good engine, but on a much better framework. I find the PVE more reasonable in BNS, even if slaughtering endless hordes in C9 was fun.

See I dislike that system I prefer every class Is unique in some way and it requires a group to truly shine.