The Ebon Blade's new Four Horsemen (massive spoilers)

[tommyhil622]

He literally was like 2 seconds away from doing that after you kill Arthas! Do people not read or in this case even watch anything in game?

Yes, he was 2 seconds away from doing it but he didn't. He didn't have to listen to Bolvar, but he did, why? cause deep down he didn't want to do it.

Also there's a difference between putting on a helm (while being alive) and dying, becoming undead, and serve as a death knight.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Here's a video of the quest. Please point me to the exact moment where the choice happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-2etIgF49g

"Take my val'kyr again, <name>. With her by your side, kill these farmers, convert them to Forsaken, and mobilize them. Then take a group of them into Alliance-held western Andorhal and hunt down this death knight, Thassarian.

We will win this war yet."

Q: Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom: Sylvanas or the Val’kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?
A: Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6489940501
this has been around forever and you still need to apparently bludgeon some people with lore. Either because Bias prevents them from accepting they are wrong, or they actually don't care about lore.

[Zulkhan]

Yes, he was 2 seconds away from doing it but he didn't. He didn't have to listen to Bolvar, but he did, why? cause deep down he didn't want to do it.

Well, not necessarily. A thing is be ready to sacrifice, another is stubbornly going for it out of some hero complex. And Tirion hesitated when he had to place the helm upon Bolvar's head, he didn't really want to do that initially. But Bolvar's words and reasoning made legitimately sense, so he got the helm.

[PrivateSmiley]

Within the confines of WoW, uther doesnt appear and hes dead, tirion is the current paladin benchmark is what i meant

Since when does being dead stop anyone?

also, i like (liked) tirion, so i have no qualms with him being the current paladin benchmark.

but when i think Warcraft Paladins, (and many others might be the same) it goes:

Uther
Arthas
Tirion.

and then my paladin.

[Deleted]

Well, not necessarily. A thing is be ready to sacrifice, another is stubbornly going for it out of some hero complex. And Tirion hesitated when he had to place the helm upon Bolvar's head, he didn't really want to do that initially. But Bolvar's words and reasoning made legitimately sense, so he got the helm.

So bolvar got loot while tirion left empty handed.

[wonderlust]

this has been around forever and you still need to apparently bludgeon some people with lore. Either because Bias prevents them from accepting they are wrong, or they actually don't care about lore.

"Let me raise you, force you to kill all of your former allies, and then ask you if you want to join us or not."

Great choice!

You speak of bias, and it might as well be true. I am biased towards the Alliance, just like you are biased towards the Forsaken. That's the beauty of interpreting what's between the lines.

As much as you'd think otherwise, there is no absolute truth.

[Friendlyimmolation]

"Let me raise you, force you to kill all of your former allies, and then ask you if you want to join us or not."

Great choice!

You speak of bias, and it might as well be true. I am biased towards the Alliance, just like you are biased towards the Forsaken. That's the beauty of interpreting what's between the lines.

As much as you'd think otherwise, there is no absolute truth.

The Word of Blizzard is law, they say there is no mind control, there is no mind control. A choice is a choice, the Alliance are lucky they even got that, nothing is forcing the Forsaken to stick to their free will policy.

[Gnarilex]

So bolvar got loot while tirion left empty handed.

Bolvar ninja'd his helm.

[wonderlust]

The Word of Blizzard is law, they say there is no mind control, there is no mind control. A choice is a choice, the Alliance are lucky they even got that, nothing is forcing the Forsaken to stick to their free will policy.

I agree that nothing is forcing the Forsaken to stick to their free will policy. Which is exactly what Sylvanas did, if you ask me.

"kill these farmers, convert them to Forsaken, and mobilize them"

Even considering CDev's answer that they are given a choice afterwards, that choice is moot under this circumstance. They've already been converted to Forsaken and used to kill their former allies. What they do afterwards doesn't really matter.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I agree that nothing is forcing the Forsaken to stick to their free will policy. Which is exactly what Sylvanas did, if you ask me.

Except Sylvanas didn't fuck with their free will at all, so no, Mind Control isnt a vague concept and the Forsaken never took away anyone's will.

kill these farmers, convert them to Forsaken, and mobilize them"

Even considering CDev's answer that they are given a choice afterwards, that choice is moot under this circumstance. They've already been converted to Forsaken and used to kill their former allies. What they do afterwards doesn't really matter.

They can do whatever they want, as long as they aren't turning around and attacking the Forsaken. Maybe it would have been better if they never invaded Lordaeron in the First place, but that is another story. The fact that this shit still comes up years after Cata is Tiring more than anything else. Blizzard gave its official word of God Answer, there is nothing to debate about it.

[wonderlust]

We'll agree to disagree, then. I think there's plenty to debate about it, I most certainly don't believe in "official word of god answers" (Blizzard has a multitude of writers who contradict themselves all the time -- Sylvanas herself is both one of my favorites and one of my most despised characters, depending on what time period we're looking at, since she's written so differently from time to time), but if you're not willing to debate it, I understand it.

[Zulkhan]

So bolvar got loot while tirion left empty handed.

Bolvar gonna ninja all your loot in Legion.

[Arrashi]

We'll agree to disagree, then. I think there's plenty to debate about it, I most certainly don't believe in "official word of god answers" (Blizzard has a multitude of writers who contradict themselves all the time -- Sylvanas herself is both one of my favorites and one of my most despised characters, depending on what time period we're looking at, since she's written so differently from time to time), but if you're not willing to debate it, I understand it.

Isn't this basically "i don't like it so i don't consider it canon" way of thinking ?

[wonderlust]

Isn't this basically "i don't like it so i don't consider it canon" way of thinking ?

Why would it be that? I'm not disregarding anything. If the devs state that recently raised humans go on a killing rampage first and are offered a choice to join the Forsaken later, I have nothing to discuss about that, it's canon. What I'm willing to debate is how much does that actually reflect a "culture of free will", when the choice that they're giving is almost completely irrelevant given what the subject is doing anyway, before a "choice" is presented to them.

Canon painted Sylvanas as a complex character with dubious morality up until Wrath, and as a full-on villain during Cataclysm questing, who seems to have reverted back to something more similar to her former self later. I'm not debating her in-game actions; those are canon. But I am willing to debate why her character changed so much from one expansion to the other; possibly as a byproduct of being written by different people, with varying interpretations of her. (Afrasiabi even stated exactly that, about Garrosh, when explaining why his personality shifted so abruptly from one expansion to another.)

[Immitis]

lets attack a place to steal a body cause X amount of losses in the process.
just to get 1 person.

still stupid

a gun will kill alot more people than a knife can.

[Gnarilex]

Isn't this basically "i don't like it so i don't consider it canon" way of thinking ?

headcanon is a crazy thing

[Immitis]

Why would it be that? I'm not disregarding anything. If the devs state that recently raised humans go on a killing rampage first and are offered a choice to join the Forsaken later, I have nothing to discuss about that, it's canon. What I'm willing to debate is how much does that actually reflect a "culture of free will", when the choice that they're giving is almost completely irrelevant given what they're forcing the subject to do anyway, before a "choice" is presented to them.

Canon painted Sylvanas as a complex character with dubious morality up until Wrath, and as a full-on villain during Cataclysm questing, who seems to have reverted back to something more similar to her former self later. I'm not debating her in-game actions; those are canon. But I am willing to debate why her character changed so much from one expansion to the other; possibly as a byproduct of being written by different people, with varying interpretations of her. (Afrasiabi even stated exactly that, about Garrosh, when explaining why his personality shifted so abruptly from one expansion to another.)

she died and didnt want to go to zombie hell again.

[Traveler Voltin]

a gun will kill alot more people than a knife can.

Depends on things.
Gun is loud. Knife is silent.

[Zulkhan]

Canon painted Sylvanas as a complex character with dubious morality up until Wrath, and as a full-on villain during Cataclysm questing, who seems to have reverted back to something more similar to her former self later.

That's just a trick depending from which side you play. If you play Alliance, all the interactions with Sylvanas makes her look like an obvious villain, for more or less obvious reasons. That's not the feeling you get when you play Horde, which is probably the main difference between Sylvanas and Garrosh. Even as Horde you were able to perceive Garrosh as someone who was doing shit marking him as a villain (prominently in MoP) but when it comes to Sylvanas, such feeling simply wasn't there when you played Silverpine as Horde.

The closer to that feeling and probably the only occasion in which something felt "wrong" is the whole deal with Koltira. But even in that case as Horde you don't really feel much sympathy for him, regardless of whatever questionable methods Sylvanas could have used to "punish" him.

[wonderlust]

That's just a trick depending from which side you play. If you play Alliance, all the interactions with Sylvanas makes her look like an obvious villain, for more or less obvious reasons. That's not the feeling you get when you play Horde, which is probably the main difference between Sylvanas and Garrosh. Even as Horde you were able to perceive Garrosh as someone who was doing shit marking him as a villain (prominently in MoP) but when it comes to Sylvanas, such feeling simply wasn't there when you played Silverpine as Horde.

The closer to that feeling and probably the only occasion in which something felt "wrong" is the whole deal with Koltira. But even in that case as Horde you don't really feel much sympathy for him, regardless of whatever questionable methods Sylvanas could have used to "punish" him.

I agree to an extent; I have done the quests on both factions, more than once. It's true that Horde characters are painted as villains for Alliance quests and vice-versa, but some of Sylvanas's actions are questionable even Horde-side.

This quest with the Val'kyr raising recently-slain humans is a Horde quest, and culminates in the infamous Koltira moment. The seeds for that moment are planted all the way back in the very first quest in Silverpine, when freakin' Garrosh of all people is horrified with what the Val'kyr are doing for Sylvanas. If Garrosh -- who at that point was not being built as an end-boss yet -- compares what Sylvanas is doing to what the Lich King did, I'm sure that a parcel of Horde players who aren't that loyal to Sylvanas asked the exact same question, or flat-out agreed with him.