1. #1601
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Dreadfort, or Korriban. You never know.
    Posts
    20,441
    This quest with the Val'kyr raising recently-slain humans is a Horde quest, and culminates in the infamous Koltira moment. The seeds for that moment are planted all the way back in the very first quest in Silverpine, when freakin' Garrosh of all people is horrified with what the Val'kyr are doing for Sylvanas. If Garrosh -- who at that point was not being built as an end-boss yet -- compares what Sylvanas is doing to what the Lich King did, I'm sure that a parcel of Horde players who aren't that loyal to Sylvanas asked the exact same question, or flat-out agreed with him.
    Garrosh was more upset because the Val'kyr threw a wrench in his entire Plan. He only wanted the Forsaken to take Gilnaes and then die out, now he couldn't have his way. And He wouldn't have given two shits if he was the one in control of the Val'kyr and not Sylvanas.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  2. #1602
    Riggggght, and sylvanas just wanted to give her sister rainbows and ponies

  3. #1603
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Dreadfort, or Korriban. You never know.
    Posts
    20,441
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner45 View Post
    Riggggght, and sylvanas just wanted to give her sister rainbows and ponies
    She didn't. Doesn't make Sylvanas a villain though, damaged and on the edge? For sure.


    But Screaming that she is a lich king and crying about how mean she is to the Alliance isn't going to make her evil. Nor is attempted cleverness going to make your point any less irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  4. #1604
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Garrosh was more upset because the Val'kyr threw a wrench in his entire Plan. He only wanted the Forsaken to take Gilnaes and then die out, now he couldn't have his way. And He wouldn't have given two shits if he was the one in control of the Val'kyr and not Sylvanas.
    That is certainly a large part of his reaction for sure, but not all of it. Orcs have a deep culture of respecting the spirits of the fallen, of revering their ancestors, and even communing with them (as can be seen multiple times in Nagrand -- both instances of it -- where Garrosh was raised). It's pretty easy to infer that he saw what the Val'kyr were doing as the desecration of the dead; as something absolutely horrifying even to someone like Garrosh, who would later appeal to powers like the Dark Shaman and the heart of an Old God.
    Last edited by wonderlust; 2016-04-08 at 12:56 AM.
    Yak. Yak never changes.

  5. #1605
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Dreadfort, or Korriban. You never know.
    Posts
    20,441
    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlust View Post
    That is certainly a large part of his reaction for sure, but not all of it. Orcs have a deep culture of respecting the spirits of the fallen, of revering their ancestors, and even communing with them. It's pretty easy to infer that he saw what the Val'kyr were doing as the desecration of the dead; as something absolutely horrifying, even to someone like Garrosh, who would later appeal to powers like the Dark Shaman and the heart of an Old God.
    Garrosh knew little of his own customs, why I do not know, The Fact that Garrosh was willing to risk causing another cataclysm to kill humans and suddenly to care about if they are raised makes no sense. The only understandable way he would be upset, is that it destroyed his plans to wipe out the Forsaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  6. #1606
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Burned Teldrassil, cooking up tasty delicacies with all the elven fat I can gather
    Posts
    13,708
    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlust View Post
    The seeds for that moment are planted all the way back in the very first quest in Silverpine, when freakin' Garrosh of all people is horrified with what the Val'kyr are doing for Sylvanas. If Garrosh -- who at that point was not being built as an end-boss yet -- compares what Sylvanas is doing to what the Lich King did, I'm sure that a parcel of Horde players who aren't that loyal to Sylvanas asked the exact same question, or flat-out agreed with him.
    Yeah but the irony is, if of all characters Garrosh fucking Hellscream pulls the moral hammer out of the pocket, then it means that maybe something "not-so-moral" actually concerns him. It was the same about the Blight, many people interpreted that as Garrosh being "honorable" or "humane" when in facts is all explained in the first two quests of Silverpine, the Wrath Gate event and the distrust born from that incident induced Garrosh to take such measures. And despite that, you learn into very first quests that the Blight ain't banned at all, is just watered down. Irony of all ironies, you really can't help but agree with the Forsaken's point that something must be done to increase its potency, because in that state was nothing but useless garbage.

    In the end, if I quest in the Western Plaguelands, reach Hearthglen and speak with freaking Tirion Fordring, who tells me that Sylvanas' behavior is worth of attention but not of panicking around about the rise of the Lich Queen, what the guy who threatened two times my PC of death in the same expansion, both for questionable reasons ain't really going to stir any big feeling in me, regardless of how much I could care about Sylvanas.

    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlust View Post
    Orcs have a deep culture of respecting the spirits of the fallen, of revering their ancestors, and even communing with them (as can be seen multiple times in Nagrand -- both instances of it -- where Garrosh was raised). It's pretty easy to infer that he saw what the Val'kyr were doing as the desecration of the dead; as something absolutely horrifying even to someone like Garrosh, who would later appeal to powers like the Dark Shaman and the heart of an Old God.
    And yet, Garrosh's huge big question eventually was:

    "What makes you different from the Lich King?"

    Which is another way to say "How can I trust you? Which meaning my power as Warchief has if I can't control you?"

    Ironically, Sylvanas kinda gave the answer that should have pleased him ("Isn't it obvious? I serve the Horde!") but the snark could have been perceived by a mile (that bowing gesture...) reason why she got (more or less rightfully) bitchslapped.

    Seriously though, this guy proved that he doesn't respect his culture in the slightest, since resorting to Dark Shamanism means pissing on everything orcish culture respects. Nor like he had any true knowledge or understanding of it, in fact Garrosh seemed to constantly lack a precise idea of what his people was supposed to be, mixing the supposed shamanistic culture of the orcs with the warmongering mentality of the demon-corrupted Old Horde, which is likely what convinced him to come up with such a mad idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  7. #1607
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    I knew you would pick her and what a straw to grasp at. She's a horrible example. She was raised by her father (high ranking member of the scarlet crusade) to hate, scorn and despise undead. When she died and was raised as a forsaken undead she rejected it and ran to her father, who ordered her to be executed, so then she went from there to kill her father and many others from the scarlet crusade. She now hates necromancers with a passion and likely only puts up with the players whom are undead out of 'I don't want to anger a giant military force' Cus you know, she ain't stupid.
    The forsaken would take huge losses taking her down anyways.



    Yeah this



    You mean undead death knights or like ghouls and such?
    The player faction is called 'undead' but referee to as forsaken. Go look at a player in game, they are Undead (Class)
    Im talking about the ones in the Troll zone. And of course they wouldn't be tagged forsaken being they belong to a different faction and wasn't raised by the Ebon hold.

  8. #1608
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanjin View Post
    lets attack a place to steal a body cause X amount of losses in the process.
    just to get 1 person.

    still stupid
    That depends. You the player are also one body, but you kill demigods for fun. One very important person can be wort a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlust View Post
    "kill these farmers, convert them to Forsaken, and mobilize them"
    Convert them to Forsaken as in, raise them into undeath. You can argue that that's not what Sylvanas meant, but it would be pointless, cause I have a degree in linguistics, so arguing semantics is not going to do you much good.

    Also, we never got the impression that valkyr can control minds. You would think they would have done that all the time. Or at the very least with Godfrey. IN that quest you are probably just taking advantage of how disoriented the freshly raised farmers are. They probabléy would have followed Cho'Gall at that point before finally figuring out that something isn't right. Still not a nice think to do, but far from mind control. And war sometimes calls for extreme measures.

    While I don't always agree with Friendlyimmolation on what is totally acceptable and what is a bit excessive when it comes to Sylvanas' actions, but generally it is a good idea to take his side in an argument. He actually knows lore and as a good academic tends to show his sources. Sources that are still canon (not the RPG).

  9. #1609
    Deleted
    I think the whole "Forsaken have a free will" and "Free Undeads go blind Rage after they are resurrected" would have been better pictured if the Quest had demanded that you pick up a certain number of Forsaken who will follow you while most of them go hostile. Just like the Death Knight Starting Area Quest von Gothic, with the scarlet miners.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    Garrosh knew little of his own customs, why I do not know, The Fact that Garrosh was willing to risk causing another cataclysm to kill humans and suddenly to care about if they are raised makes no sense. The only understandable way he would be upset, is that it destroyed his plans to wipe out the Forsaken.
    I interpreted the whole scene that Garrosh was supposed to be the more hot-blooded, trigger-happy new Warchief who should improve and actually learn his lessons. He should be a character who takes what he wants, but has his moral standarts.

    It's just what I think, how it looked like back in Cata. I also think that, if they wanted to make a faction leader a raidboss in the following expansion, it should be Sylvanas at first. The whole first confirmation, that Garrosh is doing some evil stuff under Orgrimmar just sounds like it was written for Sylvanas at first. That there is something under Undercity was already hinted in Cata.

    But then, the Players didn't liked him while the Sylvanas fanboys are too blind to acknowledge that Sylvanas turned kinda evil in Cata, so Garrosh had to die.

  10. #1610
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Land of human potential (and non-toxic masculinity)
    Posts
    23,003
    Quote Originally Posted by wonderlust View Post
    That is certainly a large part of his reaction for sure, but not all of it. Orcs have a deep culture of respecting the spirits of the fallen, of revering their ancestors, and even communing with them (as can be seen multiple times in Nagrand -- both instances of it -- where Garrosh was raised). It's pretty easy to infer that he saw what the Val'kyr were doing as the desecration of the dead; as something absolutely horrifying even to someone like Garrosh, who would later appeal to powers like the Dark Shaman and the heart of an Old God.
    *cough* shadowmoon *cough*

  11. #1611
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Orgrimmar
    Posts
    3,515
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    That's just a trick depending from which side you play. If you play Alliance, all the interactions with Sylvanas makes her look like an obvious villain, for more or less obvious reasons. That's not the feeling you get when you play Horde, which is probably the main difference between Sylvanas and Garrosh. Even as Horde you were able to perceive Garrosh as someone who was doing shit marking him as a villain (prominently in MoP) but when it comes to Sylvanas, such feeling simply wasn't there when you played Silverpine as Horde.

    The closer to that feeling and probably the only occasion in which something felt "wrong" is the whole deal with Koltira. But even in that case as Horde you don't really feel much sympathy for him, regardless of whatever questionable methods Sylvanas could have used to "punish" him.
    Epically when Slyv helps the blood elf's in sunwell story
    helps Garrosh in Cata
    and she is the only Horde member who have achieved any Military advance before WOD

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ra View Post
    I think the whole "Forsaken have a free will" and "Free Undeads go blind Rage after they are resurrected" would have been better pictured if the Quest had demanded that you pick up a certain number of Forsaken who will follow you while most of them go hostile. Just like the Death Knight Starting Area Quest von Gothic, with the scarlet miners.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I interpreted the whole scene that Garrosh was supposed to be the more hot-blooded, trigger-happy new Warchief who should improve and actually learn his lessons. He should be a character who takes what he wants, but has his moral standarts.

    It's just what I think, how it looked like back in Cata. I also think that, if they wanted to make a faction leader a raidboss in the following expansion, it should be Sylvanas at first. The whole first confirmation, that Garrosh is doing some evil stuff under Orgrimmar just sounds like it was written for Sylvanas at first. That there is something under Undercity was already hinted in Cata.

    But then, the Players didn't liked him while the Sylvanas fanboys are too blind to acknowledge that Sylvanas turned kinda evil in Cata, so Garrosh had to die.
    Don't Worry all Horde will die
    you just relax

  12. #1612
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by steelballfc View Post
    Don't Worry all Horde will die
    you just relax
    You can't deny, Blizz had tried to make Garrosh more likable in Cata. Sylvanas on the other Hand was potrayed pretty evil in Cata.

  13. #1613
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Orgrimmar
    Posts
    3,515
    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ra View Post
    You can't deny, Blizz had tried to make Garrosh more likable in Cata. Sylvanas on the other Hand was potrayed pretty evil in Cata.
    Blizzard sell the mainstream
    that's why Thrall, Aundin. velen can't be evil
    they only change when they fail, and that what garrosh is, a fail, all his moments in cata was a fail, so "blizzard" change it to what orc's look like, fucking stupid and fucking evil, it worked, hurray, kill him
    the end
    Last edited by steelballfc; 2016-04-08 at 11:44 AM.

  14. #1614
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by steelballfc View Post
    Blizzard sell the mainstream
    that's why Thrall, Aundin. velen can't be evil
    they only change when the fail, and that what garrosh is, a fail, all his moments in cata was a fail, so "blizzard" change it to what orc's look like, fucking stupid and fucking evil, it worked, hurray, kill him
    the end
    I think he was the best character in Cataclysm. I liked him. He was an asshole, he was hard but he was also fair, and he had his standpoints, back in Cata. I think Cata-Garrosh was far more likable than Sylvanas. I once started a Forsaken, because I wanted to try a Forsaken in RP, but I just couldn't force myself to have sympathy with her or even like her.

  15. #1615
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Orgrimmar
    Posts
    3,515
    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ra View Post
    I think he was the best character in Cataclysm. I liked him. He was an asshole, he was hard but he was also fair, and he had his standpoints, back in Cata. I think Cata-Garrosh was far more likable than Sylvanas. I once started a Forsaken, because I wanted to try a Forsaken in RP, but I just couldn't force myself to have sympathy with her or even like her.
    and his Cata-badass can't rule the Horde, simple as that, the Horde is complex as fuck, it may fall any moment, Garrosh is not the one who can rule it " neither Sylv".
    it's all thrall fault

  16. #1616
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by steelballfc View Post
    and his Cata-badass can't rule the Horde, simple as that, the Horde is complex as fuck, it may fall any moment, Garrosh is not the one who can rule it " neither Sylv".
    it's all thrall fault
    Yeah, but MoP-Garrosh wasn't the Garrosh we saw in Cata anymore.

  17. #1617
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Orgrimmar
    Posts
    3,515
    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ra View Post
    Yeah, but MoP-Garrosh wasn't the Garrosh we saw in Cata anymore.
    neither the Horde Before Mop is the same Horde after MOP

  18. #1618
    Garrosh was always like this. There were plenty of moments back from where he challenged Thrall in Orgrimmar back in the Wrath Prepatch where he wanted to commit horrible crimes. The clues where there all the time.

    Blizzard also written themselves into a corner with Sylvannas.

  19. #1619
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Dreadfort, or Korriban. You never know.
    Posts
    20,441
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Garrosh was always like this. There were plenty of moments back from where he challenged Thrall in Orgrimmar back in the Wrath Prepatch where he wanted to commit horrible crimes. The clues where there all the time.

    Blizzard also written themselves into a corner with Sylvannas.
    There isn't a corner for sylvanas she is not nearly as hated by the horde, and unlike garrosh won't kill people who disagree with her. The only people that need to worry is the alliance, if genn dies the alliance just lost its gonads.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  20. #1620
    The Lightbringer steelballfc's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Orgrimmar
    Posts
    3,515
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    There isn't a corner for sylvanas she is not nearly as hated by the horde, and unlike garrosh won't kill people who disagree with her. The only people that need to worry is the alliance, if genn dies the alliance just lost its gonads.
    in the comic it was shown the Horde hated the Forsaken after Wrath-gate Betrayal

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •