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  1. #41
    Legendary! TZucchini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    In terms of charitable giving, Republicans on average donate far more to private charities than Democrats do.
    Not really true. Source.

    Republicans are much more likely to spend their donations on the churches they attend, which they directly benefit from. While I'd still count that as charitable giving, I'd argue that it's less charitable than donating to a cause from which you do not directly benefit.
    Eat yo vegetables

  2. #42
    I'm in between. I have Canadian family who have to wait extensively for procedures and things like MRIs that could be done much, much quicker in America or even in Mexico or Central America at near the same level of quality. But I'm sure it's nice that simple things don't cost an arm and a leg.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Europeans privately donate far less than Americans to international charities though, that is the point I was trying to make.

    And no Japan's health care is fucking awful. Old people go to the doctor every week for a check up and get free prescriptions for things they don't need at the expense of the young, working taxpayer.
    You get some abuses of the system but that doesnt make it awful. Can you back up your stance with sources please? As everything I have seen has praised it as one of the best in the world.

    If people privately donate thats up to them. For the most part I am sick of people asking for money. I give to a couple of charities when I can. But again saying you donate more does not mean one set of people have better morals than others.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    Not really true. Source.

    Republicans are much more likely to spend their donations on the churches they attend, which they directly benefit from. While I'd still count that as charitable giving, I'd argue that it's less charitable than donating to a cause from which you do not directly benefit.
    I can't load that PDF.

    If that is true though, you have to take into account that churches use that money to help people in their communities more than the individuals themselves who are simply going to be attending that church.

    I've never been to a Protestant church so I can't speak for them, but the money I donate at my Catholic church goes into the larger system of Catholic charities that helps people worldwide in impoverished areas.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Creamy Flames View Post
    It's hypocritical because it argues against one kind of charity but condones another.
    Charity on the receiving end of a gun barrel (Don't pay your "taxes"? Do not pass Go, Directly to jail) is not "Charity"... in the same vein that being against illegal immigration is not the same as being against immigration or being against refugees is not the same as being against Islam.

    The subtleties are there which makes all the difference..
    [color=blue]This thread has lived beyond its life expectancy. ... It's also met the forum quota for posters insulting the intelligence of their peers to grasp the age-old upper hand in argumentation, I believe officially coined by Plato: "Ur, like, dumb and that's why I'm right." Zarhym


  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    You get some abuses of the system but that doesnt make it awful. Can you back up your stance with sources please? As everything I have seen has praised it as one of the best in the world.

    If people privately donate thats up to them. For the most part I am sick of people asking for money. I give to a couple of charities when I can. But again saying you donate more does not mean one set of people have better morals than others.
    It is a good system with high quality equipment and medicine but that is mostly because of the private aspects of it.

    Japanese doctors are just awful, they essentially go to medical school to monkey around for a few years and then learn everything they need to while on residency. I would never let a Japanese doctor in a public hospital preform surgery on me unless I was literally dying. This is part of the reason why the top profession for expats in Japan outside of business is private practices in medicine.

    http://www.economist.com/node/21528660
    https://michaelperelman.wordpress.co...h-care-is-bad/

    It is just an undeniable fact that American doctors are the best in the world, there is a reason why half of the top 50 medical schools in the world are in the United States.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    @Slant

    You are just characterizing my position now with an emotional appeal. The fact is that the world would be a much worse place if the United States was not as altruistic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Giving_Index

    There is no reasonable explanation for why Kenyans are more altruistic than Norwegians except for the fact that Norwegians are used to going to the government for all their needs and lack the moral foundation to be individually altruistic.

    - - - Updated - - -



    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ropy/?page=all

    That isn't the case. Some of the richest states in the country donate the least to charity while some of the poorest people in the poorest states donate the most.
    Well, of course. If your state is doing well theres less need to give away as there will no doubt be less poor people and in the states where people tend to vote for democrats it's reasonable to assume that the state actually helps the poor, is it not?

  8. #48
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WernerCD View Post
    What will befall America? Look at the VA... Long lines, fudging numbers to get bonuses while individuals die on waiting lists... Thats what we need... expanded VA care for everyone!!!
    The main issues with the VA has been some of the administrators who run it. Not being able to fire them quickly created a lot of problems. I go to my local VA clinic and I am very pleased with the service and care I get from them. Also now you can go to a local doctor or hospital if your VA clinic is more than 50 miles from you or you have to wait too long for a treatment and get your care. So the main problem with the VA has always been in the way it was organized and supervised.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Well, of course. If your state is doing well theres less need to give away as there will no doubt be less poor people and in the states where people tend to vote for democrats it's reasonable to assume that the state actually helps the poor, is it not?
    There is some truth to that but the vast majority of charities do not operate on the state level.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Chingylol View Post
    I have a guy on my Facebook from high school who's pretty far right Republican. Loves Trump, thinks Obama is the worst president in US history, screams about his 2nd amendment rights being trampled on, and links articles all day from Fox News and other right wing sites. About a month ago he posted a rant about liberals and socialism, and how things like Obamacare and socialized medicine are just plain dumb.

    I check my Facebook earlier tonight, and his best friend got into a bad motorcycle accident earlier in the day. Crashed into a guard rail and flew into the trees. Doesn't look like he's doing good either. Immediately he sets up a Gofundme account for him and is spamming the link every hour. Basically it says that his friend doesn't have insurance, and is raising money to pay for hospital bills and any other costs that will occur for medical attention.

    So I think to myself "This is the same mofo that IS SOOOO against socialized medicine which would cover his friends healthcare, but he has the nerve to go around begging for money for him".

    Isn't it abit hypocritical?
    Well at least we all know he will get audited now if he claims on his tax return that he had insurance all year.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    It is a good system with high quality equipment and medicine but that is mostly because of the private aspects of it.

    Japanese doctors are just awful, they essentially go to medical school to monkey around for a few years and then learn everything they need to while on residency. I would never let a Japanese doctor in a public hospital preform surgery on me unless I was literally dying. This is part of the reason why the top profession for expats in Japan outside of business is private practices in medicine.

    http://www.economist.com/node/21528660
    https://michaelperelman.wordpress.co...h-care-is-bad/

    It is just an undeniable fact that American doctors are the best in the world, there is a reason why half of the top 50 medical schools in the world are in the United States.
    No ones saying American doctors are bad. They are good, just like other doctors from 1st world countries. But the American health care system is not ranked at the top. Your first link praises it but does show that there are some problems just like any health service. 2nd link is just a blog with no real statistics and does not back up your argument. American doctors might be as you claim best in the world but your health care is not ranked that highly if you think about it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...ystems_in_2000

    I will take your very anecdotal evidence as bias and disregard it. As All Japanese doctors will not be there to Monkey around or do you know all of them? Every health system has its downside. Americans one is the huge cost to any person should they get ill. You pay for fire services and police why not health care? It seems daft.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    No ones saying American doctors are bad. They are good, just like other doctors from 1st world countries. But the American health care system is not ranked at the top. Your first link praises it but does show that there are some problems just like any health service. 2nd link is just a blog with no real statistics and does not back up your argument. American doctors might be as you claim best in the world but your health care is not ranked that highly if you think about it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...ystems_in_2000

    I will take your very anecdotal evidence as bias and disregard it. As All Japanese doctors will not be there to Monkey around or do you know all of them? Every health system has its downside. Americans one is the huge cost to any person should they get ill. You pay for fire services and police why not health care? It seems daft.
    I agree that America's health care system has huge problems but that relates to its current state of being mixed more than anything.

    It either needs to go single payer or completely private because either taxes need to go up to pay for it or it should stop being managed by the government so premiums can go down.

    That source is 16 years old btw.

    But no, I am completely right about Japanese doctors. The evidence is more than just anecdotal. Japanese who are good at anything in Japan are very likely educated at 1 of 5 good universities (where they still mostly do nothing) or they are educated overseas.

    Japan has a real problem with training professionals, especially doctors. If you end up in an ER here, the chief surgeon is almost 100% guaranteed to be someone in their 60s because young doctors were never taught properly and take decades to learn on the job.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post

    There is no reasonable explanation for why Kenyans are more altruistic than Norwegians except for the fact that Norwegians are used to going to the government for all their needs and lack the moral foundation to be individually altruistic.
    Your conclusion is a little shallow. If you live in a society where charity is not needed locally, your will of course be less involved in it than someone who sees misery and poverty outside their door every day. The flaw in morals here is that "terrible things far away aren't as bad as terrible things right here", but that's a flaw most human beings have.
    Last edited by tankbug; 2016-04-08 at 12:46 PM.
    Mother pus bucket!

  14. #54
    I think it all boils down to who controls the money. Right now We pay 200 a month on pretty damn good insurance that is subsidized by Uncle Sam. I might could see paying about 250 a month in taxes if the health care from a single payer turned into a show up get whatever it was done and then don't have to pay anything plan.

    Things that are wonky with the US system are:
    Show up for an Xray if you haven't met the deductible and we run it through insurance then you pay us 300 bucks... if you self pay then it will be 50 that doesn't count toward the deductible... Why can't I just pay 50 bucks then and it count to the deductible.

    The other one I like is the... You've met your out of pocket for the year... but we need you to pay 1500 and we'll refund it back to you? Huh? Why not just not charge me and we're skipping the middle man?

    I like the we've covered 290 of the 300 dollar Xray. You must pay 10 dollars still. I also like the "How much will this cost?" "'We won't know until its done."' Errr what?

    Health care is good here just all the hoops and weird ass you have to jump through.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I can't load that PDF.

    If that is true though, you have to take into account that churches use that money to help people in their communities more than the individuals themselves who are simply going to be attending that church.

    I've never been to a Protestant church so I can't speak for them, but the money I donate at my Catholic church goes into the larger system of Catholic charities that helps people worldwide in impoverished areas.
    LOL, oh you poor poor naive friend.

    If you think the church is spending the majority of money they get on "charity" then you are sadly mistaken. The whole reason the catholic church is going bankrupt is because of the gross misappropriation of funds.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I agree that America's health care system has huge problems but that relates to its current state of being mixed more than anything.

    It either needs to go single payer or completely private because either taxes need to go up to pay for it or it should stop being managed by the government so premiums can go down.

    That source is 16 years old btw.

    But no, I am completely right about Japanese doctors. The evidence is more than just anecdotal. Japanese who are good at anything in Japan are very likely educated at 1 of 5 good universities (where they still mostly do nothing) or they are educated overseas.

    Japan has a real problem with training professionals, especially doctors. If you end up in an ER here, the chief surgeon is almost 100% guaranteed to be someone in their 60s because young doctors were never taught properly and take decades to learn on the job.
    Apologies I linked the wrong one, theres this one and a few others http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...ealth-systems/ if you search world health rankings 2015 or 2014 that gives a good picture.

    If you are right about doctors post a proper source. Your viewpoint is nothing but anecdotal and obviously at this time biased. They do have a shortage issue like some other countries if I have checked the sources I looked at properly.

    As for America, being mixed is fine. UK has both private and national cover. I have private health in addition to paying my national health insurance. I can go to my local GP (NHS) same day in most cases and I can get referred to my private health guys OR I can go for surgery on NHS etc.

    Worked since I was 16 and at this point aside to the odd visit to the GP every few years (few pulled muscles etc got checked told to rest etc), I only really needed NHS one time and went for surgery. I got seen two and had my minor surgery within a month at my local hospital.

    Now this won't be everyones experience mind you. But you can have both private and national services. America just needs to make the final step go national for the majority and those that want that extra care/speedy service pay for it via private insurance.

  17. #57
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So basically, your survival turns into a popularity contest? How nice.
    Pretty much. And rich people are notorious for helping others less than poor people ( http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...t-give/309254/ - so, yes, in reality, the rich are greedy selfish pricks), but, of course, poor people don't have the funds to be particularly effective. So the concept Natiry is espousing only works in a fairy tale world...it grinds to a halt in the real world when you bring up facts.

    If you have rich friends, you'll be well supported. If you are poor (and therefore have poor friends), you are screwed. And to conservatives that seems fair because despite many of the poor actually working at least as hard as the rich, conservatives like to delude themselves into thinking that the poor are poor because they are lazy...so it is okay not to act morally towards them.

    My favorite nonsense argument is that government is too fiscally irresponsible to do this when, in fact, the government has been doing exactly that for many decades far more efficiently than private insurance (called Medicare). When politicians, typically Republican, purposefully mess with government organizations then there are problems (the most recent is USPS' financial issues entirely brought upon because of a law forcing them to fund 75 years of retirement for all current and future employees...something that no corporation has ever done, will ever do, and forcing that requirement on industry would cause the vast majority of corporations to fold...yet it looks like USPS might get through this). When politicians aren't messing around, government organizations tend to be just as effective as most corporations, and typically are more efficient since there isn't a profit-motive driving costs higher to feed the insatiable wealth desires of the top executives.

  18. #58
    Pandaren Monk Bushtuckrman's Avatar
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    Socialized medicine = You are obligated to pay if you meet the broad requirements ie. have a decent job
    GoFundMe for mate = You make the choice to support this cause with money or not

    Far out what a dumb comparison to make.

    My country has socialized healthcare, I pay 2.5% of my income on a medicare levy in addition to the medicare I pay in my income tax which works out to be thousands of dollars. It irks me to no end because I don't use doctor services. While I am for our pharmaceutical benefits scheme and don't mind paying for that, I think we should pay for healthcare insurance in the same way we used to pay for ambulance cover here.
    I may not agree with what you say but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Natiry427 View Post
    That's because you don't understand the argument. Conservatives aren't greedy, selfish pricks who are against helping people, contrary to what liberal media will tell you. They believe exactly in how they are acting in your story: The PEOPLE should be able to donate and help others at their own discretion, and given the opportunities, have shown that they will. The government shouldn't be involved, as it has shown time and time again that it is too fiscally irresponsible to viably do this.
    What about those that don't have a friend that makes a gofundme page?

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Natiry427 View Post
    That's because you don't understand the argument. Conservatives aren't greedy, selfish pricks who are against helping people, contrary to what liberal media will tell you. They believe exactly in how they are acting in your story: The PEOPLE should be able to donate and help others at their own discretion, and given the opportunities, have shown that they will. The government shouldn't be involved, as it has shown time and time again that it is too fiscally irresponsible to viably do this.
    Except the real argument is more "I don't want to pay for people I don't care about, but I would very much like to get money from them".

    Also, the very fun fact is : socialized medecine is actually MUCH more efficient than the private garbage you got in the USA. The USA actually spends PROPORTIONNALLY MORE (operative word : "proportionnally", so I mean in percentage terms, not just absolute) than social European countries, to have an actually much WORSE system.

    So the typical "the government is inefficient" mantra actually falls well short of reality.

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