Gear gating players behind later levels of Mythic+ (The new CMs)?

[nazrakin]

Fair that quick gearing is also an issue. All I meant was that the thing I'm focusing on is less about the speed to gear initially and more on the steady-state outcome: whether someone who does only M+ for the long term can expect to equal or surpass people who are mythic raiders who only occasionally M+, or if they will always be behind mythic raiders. Right now CM is largely its own steady-state path (like PVE or say pet battles); in Legion they could either try to maintain this or they could subsume CM/M+ under the same PVE pyramid that has mythic as the pinnacle. No one's saying that mythic raiders get their gear handed to them; the question is merely whether the M+ model will be more like the current uPVP and CM/PG model or whether it's merged into PVE at large.

I think its definitely not intended to be a separate thing, they want this to be a big part of the pve endgame. Which is probably why they decided on the name change, these really aren't challenge modes at all.

[MasterHamster]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having end-of-the-line challenges be "gated behind mythic gear"...

[Leare315]

If progression works the way it should for CMS then Mythic gear will just get you to a higher level CM sooner but at some point it -should- level off. If a level 1 CM is Just over a the heroic dungeon and level 15 is Mythic raiding then you're going to close the gear gap somewhere between levels 1 and 14.

[Deleted]

If progression works the way it should for CMS then Mythic gear will just get you to a higher level CM sooner but at some point it -should- level off. If a level 1 CM is Just over a the heroic dungeon and level 15 is Mythic raiding then you're going to close the gear gap somewhere between levels 1 and 14.

This seems most likely. While most mythic raiders will gear faster I can't see the gear from cm not being enough to get you to higher levels just slowler assuming your skill is high enough.

[FenixAU]

This seems most likely. While most mythic raiders will gear faster I can't see the gear from cm not being enough to get you to higher levels just slowler assuming your skill is high enough.

This. Any other way would be a failure in progression design for the Mythic+ system.

[Caliph]

I don't agree with the timer. The non boss mobs buff others when they die so no matter what it isn't going to be easy as each kill will make each successive mob more dangerous. It would be easier to stack and kill at the same time strat given enough dps of course. I don't understand why they have to have timers. They never seem to get their damn heads out of their asses long enough to understand that we just want to keep progressing as we wish and not how they "want" us to.

[Deleted]

I don't agree with the timer. The non boss mobs buff others when they die so no matter what it isn't going to be easy as each kill will make each successive mob more dangerous. It would be easier to stack and kill at the same time strat given enough dps of course. I don't understand why they have to have timers. They never seem to get their damn heads out of their asses long enough to understand that we just want to keep progressing as we wish and not how they "want" us to.

The timer is necessary and it is long enough to be able to slowly pull each group with CC and go through it in your own pace. But it's not long enough to wipe through the content or cheese through it with multiple tanks and healers. If there wasn't a timer, they would have to make enrage timer for bosses and I like this concept more, because, this way, a dead dps is not immediately a wipe in high levels.

It's you who doesn't get his head out of his ass because you don't understand why a timer is needed. Blizzard isn't forcing a playstyle on you. They just prevent an exploitation because this is THE endgame progression system of this expansion. You'll be raiding once or twice a week, but you'll be constantly trying to push the next level to get a better weekly reward. Abuse of the system would result in player frustration because then you'd have to cheat the system to get the most out of it.

[Lillpapps]

The timer is the wipe mechanic in raids. If you can't complete the timer you are not allowed to move on to the next level (next boss). Anyone can brute force a dungeon if they can be inside of it for 24 hours.

[Caliph]

The timer is necessary and it is long enough to be able to slowly pull each group with CC and go through it in your own pace. But it's not long enough to wipe through the content or cheese through it with multiple tanks and healers. If there wasn't a timer, they would have to make enrage timer for bosses and I like this concept more, because, this way, a dead dps is not immediately a wipe in high levels.

It's you who doesn't get his head out of his ass because you don't understand why a timer is needed. Blizzard isn't forcing a playstyle on you. They just prevent an exploitation because this is THE endgame progression system of this expansion. You'll be raiding once or twice a week, but you'll be constantly trying to push the next level to get a better weekly reward. Abuse of the system would result in player frustration because then you'd have to cheat the system to get the most out of it.

Non sense. Cheese strats will only work (if possible) for so long before the added difficulty nullifies them. This isn't a raid it's a dungeon where you'll need dps and at best an off healer. The more and more you progress the more you'll need the added dps. tanks will not do as much dps any more nor will healers have infinite mana to "cheese" them by double healing or whatever non sense you speak of.

Timers for bosses might be necessary but not the entire dungeon.

In vanilla we used to spend all day in dungeons and sometimes not even clear it simply because of gear and such. the same concept to a lesser degree applies here.

Timers are for you wankers and epeeners. I have no interest in rushing through things. At best simplified and efficient dungeon design will lend to shorter play throughs. There isn't a need for a timer.

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The timer is the wipe mechanic in raids. If you can't complete the timer you are not allowed to move on to the next level (next boss). Anyone can brute force a dungeon if they can be inside of it for 24 hours.

I've never spent such egregious amounts of time in a dungeon even back in vanilla. If you can't beat a boss you can't beat a boss. No amount of time in the dungeon itself will alleviate that. there's no need for timers.

[Deleted]

Non sense. Cheese strats will only work (if possible) for so long before the added difficulty nullifies them. This isn't a raid it's a dungeon where you'll need dps and at best an off healer. The more and more you progress the more you'll need the added dps. tanks will not do as much dps any more nor will healers have infinite mana to "cheese" them by double healing or whatever non sense you speak of.

Timers for bosses might be necessary but not the entire dungeon.

In vanilla we used to spend all day in dungeons and sometimes not even clear it simply because of gear and such. the same concept to a lesser degree applies here.

Timers are for you wankers and epeeners. I have no interest in rushing through things. At best simplified and efficient dungeon design will lend to shorter play throughs. There isn't a need for a timer.

- - - Updated - - -



I've never spent such egregious amounts of time in a dungeon even back in vanilla. If you can't beat a boss you can't beat a boss. No amount of time in the dungeon itself will alleviate that. there's no need for timers.

BUT YOU DON'T RUSH! The timer is long enough for you to go through it in a decent pace... It's just an "anti-cheese" mechanic. It's not CM with tight gold timers, where you have to be fast and multi pull groups and cheese through other groups with creative pathing or item use.
It's 45 minutes! This is not vanilla anymore, where 45 minutes for a dungeon is a rush.
Time is not the limiting factor here anyway. Difficulty will be. When a boss wipes the floor with you multiple times because he is too hard for you. That will be the limiting factor. The timer just prevents cheesing like "reaching a higher level because you pulled everything with bloodlust and then waited for it to be ready again"
If the timer is still too strict with 45 minutes, they might increase it to an hour, but they'll definitely not remove it. The timer is important.

Again, the existence of a timer does not make it automatically a rushing through. The timer is simply a safety net to incentivize "normal playing" and not cheesing with multiple tanks/heals or abusing bloodlust for everything.

[Caliph]

BUT YOU DON'T RUSH! The timer is long enough for you to go through it in a decent pace... It's just an "anti-cheese" mechanic. It's not CM with tight gold timers, where you have to be fast and multi pull groups and cheese through other groups with creative pathing or item use.
It's 45 minutes! This is not vanilla anymore, where 45 minutes for a dungeon is a rush.
Time is not the limiting factor here anyway. Difficulty will be. When a boss wipes the floor with you multiple times because he is too hard for you. That will be the limiting factor. The timer just prevents cheesing like "reaching a higher level because you pulled everything with bloodlust and then waited for it to be ready again"
If the timer is still too strict with 45 minutes, they might increase it to an hour, but they'll definitely not remove it. The timer is important.

Again, the existence of a timer does not make it automatically a rushing through. The timer is simply a safety net to incentivize "normal playing" and not cheesing with multiple tanks/heals or abusing bloodlust for everything.

isn't 45mins too short a time then? maybe i want to take a piss or smoke break? maybe i'm whornie and run up to my wife. I don't see the need even if its 45 mins. unless the dungeons are so short that it doesn't matter which sounds like its the case.

[Natiry427]

isn't 45mins too short a time then? maybe i want to take a piss or smoke break? maybe i'm whornie and run up to my wife. I don't see the need even if its 45 mins. unless the dungeons are so short that it doesn't matter which sounds like its the case.

If you go afk during a dungeon run, people will probably kick you, regardless of difficulty or timers. Youre just wasting everyones time.

[kamuimac]

So I know this has been touched somewhat in other threads, but with the new information released about Mythic+ dungeons I wanted to see if the community could provide some feedback/discussion on this now. In particular, the latest information ends with talking about the most difficult combination of affixes that are currently planned; "BTW, unrelated, as some brave souls are noticing, keystone level 6 is very, very hard at this gear level. Looks like the first affix combo up is Tyrannical+Decay, which is a particularly difficult combo to try to brute-force while undergeared." I know that players have been worried that the new legion CMs will turn into a Mythic Raiding only party when it comes down to the most hard core, and that the rewards offered by this content will cap off at a level that you can only reach with an arbitrary mythic raiding ilvl, compared to the live game where only trinkets & class comp really allow or prevent current players from being the best.

MMOC do you think Legion will turn the new CMs into an activity that mostly just rewards mythic raiders with the best rewards, or do you think it will work how it is now where you can have very decent players who do CMs but are not mythic raiders? Also, on a side note, do we know yet if there will be any unique rewards in the new CMs (such as titles, mounts, or transmog), and if so do we know yet if the level of keystone you have to acquire is only capable with mythic raid gear?

i dont think so - what i do think is that its very very good idea because it will give people something else to progress outside of mythic raiding - i dont mind very high lvs being very brutal and unforgiving as long as they offer adequalte reward aka gear equal to mythic raiding lv

[Deleted]

isn't 45mins too short a time then? maybe i want to take a piss or smoke break? maybe i'm whornie and run up to my wife. I don't see the need even if its 45 mins. unless the dungeons are so short that it doesn't matter which sounds like its the case.

Then play a singleplayer game. Don't waste the time of 4 other players when you're such a special snowflake that constantly has to go afk.
This is a raid equivalent mode and with it comes the "raid culture". Deal with your shit before the raid starts, so that you don't waste everybody elses time.
Progress raiding takes hours with set pauses in between. This here is a 45 minute timer for a dungeon, that you run through in 20-30 minutes if you don't wipe. You can make pauses in between runs to take a piss, smoke a cig or shag your wife.

[Adramelch]

I don't see the need even if its 45 mins. unless the dungeons are so short that it doesn't matter which sounds like its the case.

- Will there be a way to prevent 4x tanks 1 healer group setups?
- You think that group composition can put out enough damage to beat the timer? (Watcher)

As an example.

[Tokas]

They need the timer though or it negates part of the challenge. No timer=slow ass pulling and not pushing yourself to make it. You could literally CC everything but 1 mob at a time and play it safe. Sure, you can have immune targets, but then again, pull>kill>relax and get all resources/CDs again for next pack.

kind of... but who cares about trash

[IxilaFA]

I've never spent such egregious amounts of time in a dungeon even back in vanilla. If you can't beat a boss you can't beat a boss. No amount of time in the dungeon itself will alleviate that. there's no need for timers.

Sloot bag's run last night proves your point incorrect. Took them two hours to finish the lv6 CM because they were using the wrong strat for one of the bosses. Do you think they still should have gotten the reward after all that time wasted?

Nothing prevents you from trying over and over again to beat the timer. If you fail, get better and stop wiping and you will easily beat the timer. These aren't CM timers where you have to mass pull and chain pull and pull insane numbers to beat it. The timer is a snooze fest and is equivalent to getting bronze in a lot of WOD dungeons, which was a cakewalk even the first time through in 620 ilvl gear. If you find that the timer is actively keeping you from progressing, get better or find a better group. Just because it's 5 man content doesn't mean you get an easier time of it than raid teams do.

isn't 45mins too short a time then? maybe i want to take a piss or smoke break? maybe i'm whornie and run up to my wife. I don't see the need even if its 45 mins. unless the dungeons are so short that it doesn't matter which sounds like its the case.

If you're going AFK in the middle of a dungeon run then you are the problem here, not the design. If you can't sit still for 45 minutes maybe you should play a different game. Raiders oftentimes have to sit at their computers for 3-4 hours at a time. You can take your smoke and piss break after each run.

[Rtrain]

The timer also is only for upgrading your keystone. You still get loot if you don't make the timer.

[Deleted]

Yes gear allows you to skip ahead/reach higher CM levels more easily BUT that is actually good for more casual players which otherwise would be stuck far too long on the same (lowish) level.

And ofc you will get gear through CMs (most likely at least on par with heroic raiding gear, maybe weekly chance at mythic gear).

Honestly I have a hard time understanding why one could be against this new system, esp since the old CM system was abandoned by literally 98% of the population after 2-3 weeks. 0.1% was pushing for times, 1.9% was selling carries. It's literally impossible to create a worse system than mop/wod CM design.

[Eapoe]

kind of... but who cares about trash

Have you run current CM's? If you have I know you also know that trash is the hardest part of them. The boss themselves on live (few exceptions, I admit) pose very little threat to the group, it's the managing of trash and pulling enough to make the timer as well as keeping people up. It's usually the 1-2 bad trash pulls that cause a group to reset.
Now bare in mind for the new design it will work similar. Higher health/damage and the random affixes (pulsing AOE damage thru the instance and corpses of trash exploding, etc) that trash will still be something you have to adjust for and manage every bit as much as live.
Can't wait to see what the stacked group comps will be come Legion.