Legion - Subtlety discussion

[KiwifruitOCE]

No answer != ignoring
I seriously doubt they ignore reasonable concerns. They just don't reply for some reason.

Well we've had reasonable concerns about sub aoe for awhile now, they haven't really touched on that at all.

Using shadow dance to regen energy so you can aoe more feels terrible because it has no synergy with aoeing at all.

[Todesbote]

Well we've had reasonable concerns about sub aoe for awhile now, they haven't really touched on that at all.

It's funny you pick that issue to say that because Subtlety AoE is actually the only thing we ever got a blue response for.

By Celestalon:


Can be translated in: take it or leave it.

If you're looking for a better response I'm afraid you're out of luck. A statement like that one from Celestalon is as clear as it gets for devs.

[kalaratic]

No answer != ignoring
I seriously doubt they ignore reasonable concerns. They just don't reply for some reason.

live footage from the sub class design team:

[Deleted]

What do you mean no word in pruning debate? We just got back an ability that was pruned.

Great. Possibly the most inconsequential prune of all was retracted. Threat used to be a big deal. It's not so much anymore and without the damage modification component, Tricks of the Trade is bland and fairly pointless.

we're used to it, we've already seen more reaction from the devs in this one expac than in the previous 6 combined :P

also they did change some stuff

35 sec Symbols is way more managable,
phantom assasin gets rid of the whole "i have to press SoD during burst and it's clunky" thing.

so we are getting some changes. honestly at this point if they made the artifact power something not utterly horrible and made shadow nova not break CC i'd be happy already.

35 second Symbols of Death is ridiculous.

The whole point of Find Weakness being interesting, fun and spec-defining is that it's a 10 second window in which you try to load burst damage [and manipulate your opposition in PvP].

I was under the impression that Symbols of Death was intended as some kind of Find Weakness replacement, but in reality it feels far more akin to a Slice and Dice replacement. Perhaps Master of Subtlety is the new Find Weakness, but that leaves a fairly poor taste as we already have that on live, it just doesn't work with Shadow Dance.


EDIT:
It's not even just in gameplay where Subtlety is getting screwed. Have you seen the weapon models? Not a single one is good or, you know, something you'd describe as 'Subtlety-ish'. They're big, lumbering, clunky, awkward things. Not many specs can claim to have drawn very short straws for gameplay and artifacts. And considering how good things are on live at the moment, it's all quite depressing.

[Khebul]

Things are not as good on Live as people might have described it. Sub is the king of single target for two simple reasons: cooldown stacking and short fights. On progression sub was not that great. Some fights favored Assassination by quite a lot, especially with low level ring or no ring at all. If ring and/or 10 ilvl buff did not exist, sub would not be as powerful as it is now.

If current design of rogue specs stays, sub will only be useful on ST bosses, or after progression - when AoE/cleave damage is not the issue. It will be mostly useless for Mythic dungeons and will suffer in solo content. We need new info from blizzard on what direction do they think the spec will go. If everything stays as it is now, I do expect majority of rogues to maximize Outlaw spec first, and only then start progressing through Sub artifact.

No other class experiences that much pigeonholing, not even mages or warlocks. This is not healthy direction for a spec and we should start tweeting again.

[shaunika123]

Great. Possibly the most inconsequential prune of all was retracted. Threat used to be a big deal. It's not so much anymore and without the damage modification component, Tricks of the Trade is bland and fairly pointless.

35 second Symbols of Death is ridiculous.

The whole point of Find Weakness being interesting, fun and spec-defining is that it's a 10 second window in which you try to load burst damage [and manipulate your opposition in PvP].

I was under the impression that Symbols of Death was intended as some kind of Find Weakness replacement, but in reality it feels far more akin to a Slice and Dice replacement. Perhaps Master of Subtlety is the new Find Weakness, but that leaves a fairly poor taste as we already have that on live, it just doesn't work with Shadow Dance.


EDIT:
It's not even just in gameplay where Subtlety is getting screwed. Have you seen the weapon models? Not a single one is good or, you know, something you'd describe as 'Subtlety-ish'. They're big, lumbering, clunky, awkward things. Not many specs can claim to have drawn very short straws for gameplay and artifacts. And considering how good things are on live at the moment, it's all quite depressing.

Symbols was always gonna be a slice replacement, it's just a more interesting design because it's an opener not a finisher so it'll need more management.

then again the buff itself is as bland as it can get.

[Deleted]

Things are not as good on Live as people might have described it. Sub is the king of single target for two simple reasons: cooldown stacking and short fights. On progression sub was not that great. Some fights favored Assassination by quite a lot, especially with low level ring or no ring at all. If ring and/or 10 ilvl buff did not exist, sub would not be as powerful as it is now.

If current design of rogue specs stays, sub will only be useful on ST bosses, or after progression - when AoE/cleave damage is not the issue. It will be mostly useless for Mythic dungeons and will suffer in solo content. We need new info from blizzard on what direction do they think the spec will go. If everything stays as it is now, I do expect majority of rogues to maximize Outlaw spec first, and only then start progressing through Sub artifact.

No other class experiences that much pigeonholing, not even mages or warlocks. This is not healthy direction for a spec and we should start tweeting again.

I speak of gameplay fun. Numbers, meh, you can do mythic with Subtlety or Assassination (non-cleave). If you were struggling on a fight it wasn't because you were playing one or the other. The current Subtlety has a great, fun design with huge utility in PvP and solid numbers for PvE. Legion Subtelty as it stands has been stripped of nearly everything that made it fun. Bugger the numbers for just a minute.

The only cause for concern from a numbers perspective I can see is in the new dungeon system, which seems to form quite a notable part of the endgame. Subtelty having so few AoE options hurts its ability to function here quite a lot. Also worth noting that some of the AoE it does have (non-optional) is actually detrimental to PvP: Shadow Nova breaking CC, etc.

It's just a mess.

[Smaxy]

Because tricks solves pvp and everything else. Yes its something. But that does not mean they are reverting more pruning. They have yet to give their response on whether they Will undo more of the pruning altogether. It seems like most people want the same things back for rogues so far. Gouge, shiv, blind (for sin), disarm, smokebomb, possibly poisons (dosens even need to be passive dmg or slow poisons). IMO pruning reverts need to come back baseline, or something we unlock in a pvp spellbook but get to keep. Prestige should instead alter existing abilities and be about passives so no one feels behind because they unlock a good ability in their last tier.

So far they have not really responded to the pruning feedback after watchers post. So keep coming with good feedback on why these abilities are good and fun for pvp i guess.

I don't think poisons are coming back for sub or gouge for Assn. if you look at the classes across the board, a lot of PvP stuff was nerfed/removed (stuns, snares, mortal strike, cast time increase, mobility, survivability) as they want each spec to feel different rather than all have the same things. I think this is actually good to be honest.

And how is getting tricks back "pointless?" Just because it has no use for PvP doesn't mean it's useless.

[Khebul]

I'm only interested in PvE side of rogue, so that's what I'm gonna to discuss.

It is simply not true if you say that PvE sub was "stripped of nearly everything that makes it fun". Live subtlety differs from alpha subtlety mostly on one aspect: how long SD lasts. it is literally 10 seconds of DPS every minute on live vs 3 seconds of DPS every 20-ish seconds on alpha, and that is fixable. Only thing that is changed - you now dump energy and CPs before SD instead of pooling.

Yes, talents are crap. Yes, shadow nova is pain in the butt. Yes, Goremaw's Bite is boring. But talents are bland on live as well, shadow nova will not live through first week of Legion going live, and neither does Goremaw's Bite. Live sub is as problematic as sub on alpha. Biggest reason why it is popular now are the numbers. As soon as numbers aren't there - PvE sub becomes a crippled spec with no variety in gameplay through talents, very narrow niche and no means to escape it.

[Jaronicity]

I don't think poisons are coming back for sub or gouge for Assn. if you look at the classes across the board, a lot of PvP stuff was nerfed/removed (stuns, snares, mortal strike, cast time increase, mobility, survivability) as they want each spec to feel different rather than all have the same things. I think this is actually good to be honest.

And how is getting tricks back "pointless?" Just because it has no use for PvP doesn't mean it's useless.

I saw this:

Skittish - Tanks generate much less threat.

And was glad to have Tricks back lol.

[Smaxy]

I saw this:


And was glad to have Tricks back lol.

Yeah, that.

Also, I played on my Feral Druid (sacrilege!!!, although their talent choices and artifact blow ours out of the water lol, it's laughable) and remembered that I missed Tricks. It's so nice to always get a perfect opener. From the timing, to minimizing movement on pull.. I mean would you really want to leave that up to huntards?

- - - Updated - - -

I'm only interested in PvE side of rogue, so that's what I'm gonna to discuss.

It is simply not true if you say that PvE sub was "stripped of nearly everything that makes it fun". Live subtlety differs from alpha subtlety mostly on one aspect: how long SD lasts. it is literally 10 seconds of DPS every minute on live vs 3 seconds of DPS every 20-ish seconds on alpha, and that is fixable. Only thing that is changed - you now dump energy and CPs before SD instead of pooling.

Yes, talents are crap. Yes, shadow nova is pain in the butt. Yes, Goremaw's Bite is boring. But talents are bland on live as well, shadow nova will not live through first week of Legion going live, and neither does Goremaw's Bite. Live sub is as problematic as sub on alpha. Biggest reason why it is popular now are the numbers. As soon as numbers aren't there - PvE sub becomes a crippled spec with no variety in gameplay through talents, very narrow niche and no means to escape it.

Live sub has t18, an upkeep finisher in SnD, soul cap, blade twisting, and greatly increased Ambush damage (Vanish, SD become more important). I think you are severely discounting their impacts on the spec.

[Khebul]

Alpha sub will have t19 and two trinkets as well. You cant just dismiss them from the picture if you want to bring up t18/sulcap. In fact, it will also have legendary items at some point, and some of them influence your rotation (like distract one, for example). Moreover, t18 is used as 30% damage buff during SD on live, which is in my opinion simplifies rotation compared to t17 gameplay. Both versions of the spec have DoT (nightblade/rapture) and buff to keep (SoD/SnD). Rapture is only slightly more complex to keep due to blade twisting. Alpha rogue has optional upkeep buff in the form of enveloping shadows.

All and all, complexity of alpha and Live sub are roughly the same. Shorter burst window and more RnG (regenerating SD charges) is the gist of the difference between alpha and live.

[elfporn]

Alpha sub will have t19 and two trinkets as well. You cant just dismiss them from the picture if you want to bring up t18/sulcap. In fact, it will also have legendary items at some point, and some of them influence your rotation (like distract one, for example). Moreover, t18 is used as 30% damage buff during SD on live, which is in my opinion simplifies rotation compared to t17 gameplay. Both versions of the spec have DoT (nightblade/rapture) and buff to keep (SoD/SnD). Rapture is only slightly more complex to keep due to blade twisting. Alpha rogue has optional upkeep buff in the form of enveloping shadows.

All and all, complexity of alpha and Live sub are roughly the same. Shorter burst window and more RnG (regenerating SD charges) is the gist of the difference between alpha and live.

Legion sub cooldown management will be on a whole different level (if left as is). Live, sub basically uses vanish and SD together, on cd, and with ring.

InLegion, sub will have to juggle sprint, vanish, 3 charges of shadow dance, and the impact of any deepening shadow procs. While it may not sound complicated on paper, take a moment to plan out the first minute of a fight. Granted: Deepening shadows procs on the 16th finisher....

I've mapped the opener myself and it was...long. Complexity for Legion, on paper, it seems simple, but for min/max it's anything but.

[mindghosts]

I don't think poisons are coming back for sub or gouge for Assn. if you look at the classes across the board, a lot of PvP stuff was nerfed/removed (stuns, snares, mortal strike, cast time increase, mobility, survivability) as they want each spec to feel different rather than all have the same things. I think this is actually good to be honest.

And how is getting tricks back "pointless?" Just because it has no use for PvP doesn't mean it's useless.

I never said it was either.

[Deleted]

Our talent system needs more rotation/priority changing chooses. Ele sham and demo Warlock have fantastic choice in what they want to do, and can tailor their trees accordingly, to a large degree. Regardless of pruned abilities, if they can do for Rogues what they've done to those two classes, I'd be happy.

I'm not that creative, so I can't think of any on the top of my head, but the difference in design between Rogue and sham/warlock talent trees is staggering, and asks the question "were these really made by the same team".

Does each class have its own dev team?

[kalaratic]

I've mapped the opener myself and it was...long. Complexity for Legion, on paper, it seems simple, but for min/max it's anything but.

this is actually pretty cool, never clicked in my mind. but what about just the regular rotation? it seems kinda dull atm

[Deleted]

but what about just the regular rotation? it seems kinda dull atm

Subtlety is bordering with broken, unplayable, also known as dead spec on alpha and we are still using terms like dull or clunky.

Because SoD off global is really what we need, right? Right? Ok. Meanwhile Im gonna check out another 2 bosses and see if subtlety is any good at them (JK).

[elfporn]

Subtlety is bordering with broken, unplayable, also known as dead spec on alpha and we are still using terms like dull or clunky.

Because SoD off global is really what we need, right? Right? Ok. Meanwhile Im gonna check out another 2 bosses and see if subtlety is any good at them (JK).

If by unplayable you mean alien, never before seen energy regeneration structure, then sure, yea.

Has anyone here spent 5-10 minutes just running through a pve rotation with all cooldowns? And then reflected on it, or tried to perfect it? Changed talents to try and get more out of it?

I don't think i've seen any honest theorycraft type posts on current iteration sub, just "feelings" and opinions.

We all know there are improvements that we're howling for, but the base is laid. The energy generation is the weirdest thing about the whole spec right now, and with no communication from devs we're in the dark on it.

My only hope is that once the team is done rebuilding all the specs that the refinement pass will happen in the same order spec rebuilding happened. (Remember sub was one of the earlier specs to be rebuilt/released).

[RobertoCarlos]

I'm white in a highly developed country. I don't know much about the struggles and hardships of being a minority in a big country.

But playing rogue in WoW and looking at the amount of attention and money being poured into druids and paladins because they are the most popular class along with hunters it is giving me a similar feeling to what minorities experience I'm sure.

Sorry to the people of color who experience racism and or the feeling of being left out, I can only imagine how tiring it gets.

[kalaratic]

i wonder if demon hunter has anything to do with this. wonder if they're doing it purposely to shove some rogues off so theres is a decent portion of ppl maining it