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  1. #81
    There's no problem here so long as the gear you can earn over the course of doing the CMs is good enough to allow you to run the top end CMs.

    Currently playing Borderlands 1 remaster. Amped for Borderlands 3.
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Have you run current CM's? If you have I know you also know that trash is the hardest part of them. The boss themselves on live (few exceptions, I admit) pose very little threat to the group, it's the managing of trash and pulling enough to make the timer as well as keeping people up. It's usually the 1-2 bad trash pulls that cause a group to reset.
    Now bare in mind for the new design it will work similar. Higher health/damage and the random affixes (pulsing AOE damage thru the instance and corpses of trash exploding, etc) that trash will still be something you have to adjust for and manage every bit as much as live.
    Can't wait to see what the stacked group comps will be come Legion.
    after i wrote my reply i thought the same, so yeah, +1

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by IxilaFA View Post
    Sloot bag's run last night proves your point incorrect. Took them two hours to finish the lv6 CM because they were using the wrong strat for one of the bosses. Do you think they still should have gotten the reward after all that time wasted?

    Nothing prevents you from trying over and over again to beat the timer. If you fail, get better and stop wiping and you will easily beat the timer. These aren't CM timers where you have to mass pull and chain pull and pull insane numbers to beat it. The timer is a snooze fest and is equivalent to getting bronze in a lot of WOD dungeons, which was a cakewalk even the first time through in 620 ilvl gear. If you find that the timer is actively keeping you from progressing, get better or find a better group. Just because it's 5 man content doesn't mean you get an easier time of it than raid teams do.

    If you're going AFK in the middle of a dungeon run then you are the problem here, not the design. If you can't sit still for 45 minutes maybe you should play a different game. Raiders oftentimes have to sit at their computers for 3-4 hours at a time. You can take your smoke and piss break after each run.
    your post makes alot of inaccurate assumptions and reeks of arrogance. No where did i suggest that i have a problem accomplishing the 45 min timer or that i even have a problem with the current incarnation's timers. again you assume incorrectly that not wanting a timer equals skill or lack thereof. I simply want to do it as i see fit. just because it takes 2 hrs doesn't mean the boss will finally go down. i'm merely opposed to timers and don't see the need. you however see the need because you equate it to skill. which again is inaccurate.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    your post makes alot of inaccurate assumptions and reeks of arrogance. No where did i suggest that i have a problem accomplishing the 45 min timer or that i even have a problem with the current incarnation's timers. again you assume incorrectly that not wanting a timer equals skill or lack thereof. I simply want to do it as i see fit. just because it takes 2 hrs doesn't mean the boss will finally go down. i'm merely opposed to timers and don't see the need. you however see the need because you equate it to skill. which again is inaccurate.
    The only thing I "assumed" is what you said yourself in your post, that you don't want to be beholden to a timer. And that's just nonsense. If you want meaningful end-game content you can either make bosses ridiculously hard and require dozens of wipes (mythic raiding) or you can make the bosses relatively easy but make the run timed so that you have to do better each time in order to get rewarded (new Mythic+ dungeons). I don't see how it's arrogance to expect you to be able to sit still for 45 minutes in order to complete a dungeon and get rewarded for it. If you have a problem with this mentality you should go play a game where other people aren't sitting there waiting for you.
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  5. #85
    I think it's fine if Mythic raiders progress in CMs faster than non-Mythic raiders as long as those who choose to only play CMs are able to keep on progressing.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    There's absolutely nothing wrong with having end-of-the-line challenges be "gated behind mythic gear"...
    The thing is that this content is meant to be an alternate way to get some of the best end game gear by doing said content by itself, not an alternate activity for already mythic geared players to do at max challenge that others can't (though of course those players are still free to participate in the challenge). Imo I think this is partially Blizzard's attempt to have mythic raiding share the #1 spot for being PvE end game. We have enough PvE content that is dominated solely by mythic raid gear steamrolling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    Non sense. Cheese strats will only work (if possible) for so long before the added difficulty nullifies them. This isn't a raid it's a dungeon where you'll need dps and at best an off healer. The more and more you progress the more you'll need the added dps. tanks will not do as much dps any more nor will healers have infinite mana to "cheese" them by double healing or whatever non sense you speak of.

    Timers for bosses might be necessary but not the entire dungeon.

    In vanilla we used to spend all day in dungeons and sometimes not even clear it simply because of gear and such. the same concept to a lesser degree applies here.

    Timers are for you wankers and epeeners. I have no interest in rushing through things. At best simplified and efficient dungeon design will lend to shorter play throughs. There isn't a need for a timer.

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    I've never spent such egregious amounts of time in a dungeon even back in vanilla. If you can't beat a boss you can't beat a boss. No amount of time in the dungeon itself will alleviate that. there's no need for timers.
    Timers actually do serve a need. Look at raiding, and how for some fights in the past few years could essentially have some troublesome mechanics/phases entirely skipped by simply using Heroism at the right time. The same thing applies to dungeon bosses, but even more so seeing as the bosses have so little health in comparison. Without a strict enough timer the new Mythic+ dungeons could allow a group to hero on every single boss, wipe to clear the debuff or wait it out, and then use it again on the next boss to completely bypass a troublesome mechanic with the group using insane burst. While it is true that the MoP & WoD timed runs would sometimes allow this you still couldn't wipe your debuff every boss or even every dungeon. Eventually you would need to start downing bosses without it and, despite the timed rush still had to do some bosses without constantly having hero up like you do for raiding. No timers make runs very safe feeling in comparison.

  7. #87
    Deleted
    It will be easier for mythic raiders but they will get better gear from mythic raids anyways so they wont need mythic dungeons later in the expac. Nor should they - since mythic+ dungeons will not have lockouts so otherwise Blizzard would force an endless amount of farm for the people who already devote the most time to this game - and that is against the stance Blizzard has taken for several years now.

    For the not-so-mythic raiders, the dungeons will be useful up to a point, like currently, you can get gear that is better than the first mythic HFC bosses from mythic dungeons if you get wf 720+ gear. So people can gear from lower mythic+ dungeons and clear the harder mythic+ dungeons but since they dont devote the hours needed for mythic raiding, it will be harder for them. Is there a problem with this picture? Blizzard already said that raiding will still be the best and fastest way to gear and I approve of this - the time and organization required for true raiding should provide the best rewards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    MMOC do you think Legion will turn the new CMs into an activity that mostly just rewards mythic raiders with the best rewards, or do you think it will work how it is now where you can have very decent players who do CMs but are not mythic raiders? Also, on a side note, do we know yet if there will be any unique rewards in the new CMs (such as titles, mounts, or transmog), and if so do we know yet if the level of keystone you have to acquire is only capable with mythic raid gear?
    Also, I must ask - why do people like you start threads like this and ask questions that Google will answer faster than these forums - like you asked about transmogs and there currently is an arfifact skin linked to mythic+ dungeons on alpha? Or do you just want to discuss topics that by their very nature divide the community such as gear availability?

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Koenigstiger View Post
    Yes gear allows you to skip ahead/reach higher CM levels more easily BUT that is actually good for more casual players which otherwise would be stuck far too long on the same (lowish) level.

    And ofc you will get gear through CMs (most likely at least on par with heroic raiding gear, maybe weekly chance at mythic gear).

    Honestly I have a hard time understanding why one could be against this new system, esp since the old CM system was abandoned by literally 98% of the population after 2-3 weeks. 0.1% was pushing for times, 1.9% was selling carries. It's literally impossible to create a worse system than mop/wod CM design.
    I'm mostly for the general framework for how Mythic+ works, with the exception of axing timers (My ideal version of what mythics should have been in WoD are what Mythic+ is now. I would have preferred timed runs to also be included as a seperate thing.) One of my issues is the reward system. As I mentioned earlier in the thread random non set gear with big stats isn't a big motivator for me. Rewards that stay with my character and are not outleveled by it are what push me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayami View Post
    I think it's fine if Mythic raiders progress in CMs faster than non-Mythic raiders as long as those who choose to only play CMs are able to keep on progressing.
    Yeah this is how I'm starting to feel. In WoD I haven't been even a consistent heroic raider, but I do decent at timed CMs. It was good to have a niche that didn't allow mythic raiders to overshadow you on neccesary simply because of larger group size/higher ilvl.

  9. #89
    Legendaries: Mythics: High skilled players: Mass RNG.

    Mythics are now Greater Rifts. What happens in greater rifts in diablo you say? The requirement for near perfect RNG.
    How many people clear the competitive rifts and under 100? Only the 100 best.

    Mythics will be as GR's and will gate like a motherfucker. They are pseudo fun.
    I was a Death's Demise.
    Those were the good old days.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    I'm mostly for the general framework for how Mythic+ works, with the exception of axing timers (My ideal version of what mythics should have been in WoD are what Mythic+ is now. I would have preferred timed runs to also be included as a seperate thing.) One of my issues is the reward system. As I mentioned earlier in the thread random non set gear with big stats isn't a big motivator for me. Rewards that stay with my character and are not outleveled by it are what push me.
    We have no idea what itemization for this looks like though. All they've said is that you get a reward at the end of the run and then you get a "big reward" at the end of the week based on how far you progress. Whether thats strictly non set gear or otherwise, we'll have to wait and see.

  11. #91
    Mythic raiding will drop better stuff and will be easier. So at the end it would be useless
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  12. #92
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    I do worry a bit, like OP does, when it comes to these new "Mythic/CM dungeons", but at the same time, i am also exited This is something new and it can pretty much go both ways. I will wait undtil release to give my judgement.

  13. #93
    Deleted
    i just don't understand why it's a problem when someone plays on a higher level than you. Just stop being envious. don't look to the sides. the best thing about such a scaling system is that everybody has his own personal endgame and progression. Items should matter because it's more fun when they do (in pve). Does it spoil your fun when someone else is a few (item)levels higher than you doing the same content on a higher difficulty?

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by shapookya View Post
    i just don't understand why it's a problem when someone plays on a higher level than you. Just stop being envious. don't look to the sides. the best thing about such a scaling system is that everybody has his own personal endgame and progression. Items should matter because it's more fun when they do (in pve). Does it spoil your fun when someone else is a few (item)levels higher than you doing the same content on a higher difficulty?
    No it doesn't bother me if someone plays at a higher level or has higher gear, I'm totally fine with that. One of the concerns I had was if the highest reward cap for Mythic+ was only achievable by having mythic raid gear (thus implying that in the end Mythic+ would just turn into another end game for geared mythic raiders & not an actual more or less equal alternative to end game pve outside of mythic raiding). However, as posters have already said Blizzard plans to allow the difficulty cap to go far beyond the final reward cap. I just wouldn't want the existence of mythic raid gear to pigeonhole players into doing that content in order to achieve the highest rewards in a completely separate form of pve content (Mythic+). However, we'll have to wait & see if the lower levels of Mythic+ do in fact transition smoothly enough to gradually funnel players into the higher levels with the better rewards solely by that gear and not from mythic raid gear.

  15. #95
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    No it doesn't bother me if someone plays at a higher level or has higher gear, I'm totally fine with that. One of the concerns I had was if the highest reward cap for Mythic+ was only achievable by having mythic raid gear (thus implying that in the end Mythic+ would just turn into another end game for geared mythic raiders & not an actual more or less equal alternative to end game pve outside of mythic raiding). However, as posters have already said Blizzard plans to allow the difficulty cap to go far beyond the final reward cap. I just wouldn't want the existence of mythic raid gear to pigeonhole players into doing that content in order to achieve the highest rewards in a completely separate form of pve content (Mythic+). However, we'll have to wait & see if the lower levels of Mythic+ do in fact transition smoothly enough to gradually funnel players into the higher levels with the better rewards solely by that gear and not from mythic raid gear.
    In the end you'll have to do both types of content, if you want to maximize your drops, anyways. Mythic+ dungeons will be an alternative for raids for when you don't like raiding, but it won't be an alternative when you do want to raid or when you want all the rewards per week. In this case, Mythic+ dungeons will be an addition to fill out your week. Many raiders only come online for raids and nothing else. With this, they'd have a reason to keep playing.

    The best thing about mythic+ dungeons are the appropriate rewards, which give you a progression no matter how good or bad your equip is. Mythic raiders will get mythic equip to help them progress in mythic raids and in pushing higher dungeon levels. But HC raiders will also get hc equivalent gear that helps them progress through HC and push into mythic and higher dungeon levels (mythic equivalent levels). Normal raiders will get normal equivalent gear that'll help to push into HC raids and higher mythic+ levels. LFR players will get their respective equip that increases their ilvl so that they might want to try out Normal raids or push mythic+ dungeons a bit higher to get even better equip. And someone who doesn't raid at all, can also start from a low dungeon level and progress higher and higher with continuous rewards.

    But that's just theoretical until they implement the rewards. We can only hope that they don't mess it up.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Teflonsavior View Post
    Also, I must ask - why do people like you start threads like this and ask questions that Google will answer faster than these forums - like you asked about transmogs and there currently is an arfifact skin linked to mythic+ dungeons on alpha? Or do you just want to discuss topics that by their very nature divide the community such as gear availability?
    With the exception of Blizzcon reveals & small things here & there on the forums I tend to stray away from Googling everything since I want most of the game to stay new & fresh feeling to me by the time it releases on live, not to end up one of those players bored of the game before it is even out. However, I would like to ask you why you feel the need to try and derail my thread because you don't like how I go about posting/enjoying the game?

  17. #97
    People wanted dungeons to become an alternative progression path. Without the timer, it's just 5 man raiding.

  18. #98
    If you're undergeared for Mythic+ L.6, you can gear for it by running Mythic+ L.5.

    As it should be.

    Obviously Mythic Raiders are going to have an advantage, that's the reward for being a Mythic Raider.

  19. #99
    How they distribute rewards will matter.

    There needs to be rewards relative to the level you successfully clear that scales up to a certain point, at which point you are playing for bragging rights.

    The "leaderboard" system needs to be purely transmog/bragging rights, otherwise people will be getting locked out of loot by people who don't need the loot.

    Let's say, hypothetically, that 100 groups do Keystone Dungeons on Server X. The top 10 groups get Mythic Raid Gear (no set pieces). You otherwise get standard Mythic DUNGEON gear from the end chests.

    This would mean that theoretically, if your server has 2 strong Mythic guilds on it, 8 out of the 10 groups getting "leaderboard" rewards are already getting that gear (actually better versions of that gear since it is tier piece eligible) REGARDLESS of the Keystone dungeons.

    If I'm already 880 Ilvl, then getting an 880 reward doesn't do anything for me, but a guy in 840 gear would obviously really benefit from the 880 gear -- but because I already have full 880 gear from mythic raiding, and the 840 guy can't do mythic raids because of whatever, I'm now blocking Johnny 840 from getting his upgrade just so I can brag about how 1337 I am.

    The solution to this is simple: the "leaderboard" aspect is cosmetic, your gear rewards depend on the highest level successfully cleared (within time frame), capping off at near Mythic-raid equivalent, but being ineligible to drop tier pieces or class trinkets.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Letdown View Post
    How they distribute rewards will matter.

    There needs to be rewards relative to the level you successfully clear that scales up to a certain point, at which point you are playing for bragging rights.

    The "leaderboard" system needs to be purely transmog/bragging rights, otherwise people will be getting locked out of loot by people who don't need the loot.

    Let's say, hypothetically, that 100 groups do Keystone Dungeons on Server X. The top 10 groups get Mythic Raid Gear (no set pieces). You otherwise get standard Mythic DUNGEON gear from the end chests.

    This would mean that theoretically, if your server has 2 strong Mythic guilds on it, 8 out of the 10 groups getting "leaderboard" rewards are already getting that gear (actually better versions of that gear since it is tier piece eligible) REGARDLESS of the Keystone dungeons.

    If I'm already 880 Ilvl, then getting an 880 reward doesn't do anything for me, but a guy in 840 gear would obviously really benefit from the 880 gear -- but because I already have full 880 gear from mythic raiding, and the 840 guy can't do mythic raids because of whatever, I'm now blocking Johnny 840 from getting his upgrade just so I can brag about how 1337 I am.

    The solution to this is simple: the "leaderboard" aspect is cosmetic, your gear rewards depend on the highest level successfully cleared (within time frame), capping off at near Mythic-raid equivalent, but being ineligible to drop tier pieces or class trinkets.
    And that is why I see many of the changes Blizzard has made to CMs coming in to Legion. Though I still haven't found any answers anywhere about if there is anything cosmetic attached to these runs. It is a shame if they are simply done away with because they don't want them rewarding stat gear & cosmetic rewards. A true alternative to raiding would follow the raiding model that offers good gear & mounts/titles.

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