[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Lysozyme]

Well yeah I am switching away from Prot Paladin because I don't like it in Legion. What you've done, though, is say "Blizzard listened to [people like] me, they made the spec into what I wanted." Well, thanks a lot for ruining it for me :<

Explain how your survivability not being tied to your rotation makes any sense

[Gephyrophobia]

Well yeah I am switching away from Prot Paladin because I don't like it in Legion. What you've done, though, is say "Blizzard listened to [people like] me, they made the spec into what I wanted." Well, thanks a lot for ruining it for me :<

Explain how your survivability not being tied to your rotation makes any sense

I vastly preferred when survivability was passive before this active mitigation shit happened.

Explain how hitting something with a shield making you take less damage for a few seconds makes "sense".

[Deleted]

Your mind can't handle the fact that 3 expansions ago, holy power didn't exist, and that that time period is also considered by many to have been WoW's peak? Sucks that your first experience with the game was a year of Dragon Soul

I certainly do see your point of view. I may not personally agree with it totally but I do see your point. The combat system of WoW is incredibly dated. Games like Guild Wars and to some extent Wildstar handle combat in a far better way. Yes they're different games and movement is heavily relied upon instead of button mashing but their core combat mechanics are more interesting.

I hope that by stripping many classes down to simple rotations, they can fill the void with far more engaging boss mechanics. Fortunately, it does seem like they're trying to pursue this. I do however think that removing mechanics such as Holy Power may be "fun" in the short term, but I feel that in the long term, the lack of engagement will become boring. A lot of people - including myself - get wrapped up in the excitement of new, shiny rotations/abilities/playstyles and we think it's the best iteration of the class. I was the exact same with Legion's MM Hunter, I considered maining it at one point because I enjoyed it so much. However, after spending an extended amount of time with the class, it began to get extremely boring and mundane.

I think the thing people such as yourself need to consider is the viewpoint of a lot of us who are disgruntled is not necessarily us moaning because of change. In fact, those of us here who have mained Prot for 2+ expansions have been big advocates for change. Many of us feel that Prot Pala on Live is currently in a good place and could just do with a few tweaks to smooth out scaling issues, incorporate the successes of T17/T18 set bonuses and move into Legion with an enjoyable and succinct playstyle. In the same vein - we're annoyed by the Legion iteration of Prot not because of the HoPo removal but because of how boring and shite the actual class plays at a fundamental level currently.

I vastly preferred when survivability was passive before this active mitigation shit happened.

Explain how hitting something with a shield making you take less damage for a few seconds makes "sense".

The passive vs active mitigation argument has gone on forever. Tanking used to be incredibly boring. I don't know if you ever tanked at a decent level pre-MoP/Cata, but it was really, really dull for the most part. The implementation of active mitigation, whilst admittedly clunky at times, went a ways to improve engagement for tanks. Like many things, it's been slowly tweaked over time to make it less clunky and more of a skill-based thing (for the most part).

[Gephyrophobia]

I certainly do see your point of view. I may not personally agree with it totally but I do see your point. The combat system of WoW is incredibly dated. Games like Guild Wars and to some extent Wildstar handle combat in a far better way. Yes they're different games and movement is heavily relied upon instead of button mashing but their core combat mechanics are more interesting.

I certainly do hope that by stripping many classes down to simple rotations, they can fill the void with far more engaging boss mechanics. Fortunately, it does seem like they're trying to pursue this. I do however think that removing mechanics such as Holy Power may be "fun" in the short term, but I feel that in the long term, the lack of engagement will become boring. A lot of people - including myself - get wrapped up in the excitement of new, shiny rotations/abilities/playstyles and we think it's the best iteration of the class. I was the exact same with MM Hunter, I considered maining it at one point because I enjoyed it so much. However, after spending an extended amount of time with the class, it began to get extremely boring and mundane.

I think the thing people such as yourself need to consider is the viewpoint of a lot of us who are disgruntled is not necessarily us moaning because of change. In fact, those of us here who have mained Prot for 2+ expansions have been big advocates for change. Many of us feel that Prot Pala on Live is currently in a good place and could just do with a few tweaks to smooth out scaling issues, incorporate the successes of T17/T18 set bonuses and move into Legion with an enjoyable and succinct playstyle. In the same vein - we're annoyed by the Legion iteration of Prot not because of the HoPo removal but because of how boring and shite the actual class plays at a fundamental level currently.



The passive vs active mitigation argument has gone on forever. Tanking used to be incredibly boring. I don't know if you ever tanked at a decent level pre-MoP/Cata, but it was really, really dull for the most part. The implementation of active mitigation, whilst admittedly clunky at times, went a ways to improve engagement for tanks. Like many things, it's been slowly tweaked over time to make it less clunky and more of a skill-based thing (for the most part).

Thank you for the mature response. Those are exactly the games I think of when I think of how MMO gameplay should work in 2016. More action, more interactive, less UI bullshit. What WoW has that these games don't (generally) is really great boss fights, which is what keeps me around. And I get that there are people that think prot is in a good place now, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. But sometimes they change things for the sake of doing something different. Whether we like that or not is up to us. I FUCKING HATED what they did to tanking from cata to MoP (In general), but I got used to it because changes do keep it from getting stale for a lot of people so I respect that things have to change.

However.. I'm the type of guy that could play the exact same spec without a single change indefinitely and not be bothered by it at all. But I'm not the only person they're developing the game for, so I accept that sometimes classes I like are going to change. For instance, I have an incredibly bad taste in my mouth with what they've done to enhancement in legion. Still can't get over that shit. But oh well.

As far as active mitigation goes.. I never thought tanking was boring before MoP/cata. I rolled a tank because I wanted the fantasy of having the bosses attention and being able to sit back and relax without having to chase after the boss when it needs to be moved. Dictating -where- melee range is was always a big draw for me. I get that not everybody tanks for the same reasons, especially not my reasons, but the fact of the matter is that tanking wasn't always the way it is now, and I miss how it used to be. Prot paladins in legion seem to be a really great middle ground for me.

[Arteezy]

Master chief needs to go back to farmville

[Gephyrophobia]

Master chief needs to go back to farmville

But I just used up my last mission complete order

[Lysozyme]

It's not going back to passive mitigation, it's just making your active mitigation not tied to your rotation. You can do active mitigation without pressing the rest of your buttons. What's that about?

When I said "make sense", I mean, how is it a coherent spec that can actually be remotely challenging or interesting to play?

[Gephyrophobia]

It's not going back to passive mitigation, it's just making your active mitigation not tied to your rotation. You can do active mitigation without pressing the rest of your buttons. What's that about?

When I said "make sense", I mean, how is it a coherent spec that can actually be remotely challenging or interesting to play?

Which is awesome. I can use it when I need it without pooling anything. I wasn't implying that we were going back to passive mitigation, it was an unrelated statement; I was just giving you a scenario in which to explain how something that -I- think is stupid makes "sense" to you.

Since when does coherence have anything to do with challenge? Playing my class shouldn't be a fucking challenge, that's what boss mechanics are for.

[Deleted]

It's a shame that giving all of their tanks different playstyles means that a lot gets changed, but in general they're doing a good job with making which class you're playing meaningful. All of the tank rotations have been condensed into fewer abilities, or a set number of abilities, but that's obviously an intended change. I personally don't see it as that bad a change, but I will have to see how it goes.

I've played everything a small amount, some more than others of course, but the tanks all feel different to play, it may suck if you prefer a different playstyle to the class you have typically played - but if you actually want to tank then one of the 6 classes will feel good to you (I hope).

Unfortunately due to how the game is I'm no longer a Paladin, I'm a tank - but I enjoy playing several of the classes and will be playing what I feel will be best regardless of what I enjoy most. The only class I expect drastic changes on is Monk, the others might be lacking here and there, but their general playstyle is fine. If I could choose, I would still play Paladin and I may end up playing it yet, will just have to see how things are tuned.

[Fusoya]

There are players who would agree with you, but this forum isn't populated by them.

I populate this forum and I agree with him - at least on the point that Holy Power is a UI layer that does not in any way increase the complexity of gameplay decisions.

In fact, judging by all of the ragequit posts I may be the only real Prot Paladin left.

[celinamuna]

I populate this forum and I agree with him - at least on the point that Holy Power is a UI layer that does not in any way increase the complexity of gameplay decisions.

In fact, judging by all of the ragequit posts I may be the only real Prot Paladin left.

That would require you being prot paladin in the first place tho

[Fusoya]

That would require you being prot paladin in the first place tho

I sincerely apologize for not including you in the list of ragequits.

Assuming i don't quit wow b4 then i'll prob do guides.
But as a casual pleb who doesn't raid i might quit too :/

[celinamuna]

I sincerely apologize for not including you in the list of ragequits.

Senpai noticed me, aguugugugu.
Sadly still here, sadly you're still not a paladin

[Deleted]

And I play a Bear.

Let me just put your opinion on Prot Paladin where it belongs then.

[Melsiren]

I have a protadin and I can play it with my eyes closed.

So is holy power convoluted or simple?

Your mind can't handle the fact that 3 expansions ago, holy power didn't exist, and that that time period is also considered by many to have been WoW's peak? Sucks that your first experience with the game was a year of Dragon Soul

Yeah, the peak for the common pleb. Been a prot paladin since the middle of BC, and the first time I started to really enjoy my role was MoP haste stacking and vengeance cheesing.

You're right about one thing though. Blizzard decided to listen to people like you and undo all class progress they made in the last six years. I'd honestly have no issue with the state of prot pallies if there was a single tankspec in legion that had some semblance of complexity to it.

which is fine, like many others in this thread I've come to terms that Prot Pally, and maybe even WoW are just not for me any more.

[Deleted]

I populate this forum and I agree with him - at least on the point that Holy Power is a UI layer that does not in any way increase the complexity of gameplay decisions.

In fact, judging by all of the ragequit posts I may be the only real Prot Paladin left.

On Holy Power I can agree, as there's no trade-off between mitigation and damage, another incredibly over-discussed issue. Also you're an illegal squatter we tolerate for our amusement, not a citizen.

And I don't need to have any sympathetic ears here, Blizzard already listened. Rekt.

Sadly.

I'm of the opinion that there should be a way to have tanking engaging for both you and me; someone that wants a less complex and engaging way of playing to allow them to focus more on other aspects of gameplay (as you've said, interesting boss mechanics and what-not), and someone that can autopilot the spec and the boss mechanics and thus wants more complex gameplay involving trade-offs and meaningful decision-making (think Seraphim with Harsh Words during HM Mythic progression).

I can see where you're coming from, and perhaps I was too quick to jump on the "oh boy, another terribad player come to ruin tanking for me," so apologies for that. However, based off some of your statements, I cannot put much stock into your arguments (see: "Playing my class shouldn't be a fucking challenge," "Which is awesome. I can use it when I need it without pooling anything," "I'm the type of guy that could play the exact same spec without a single change indefinitely and not be bothered by it at all,") as these all lead to a state of the game I do not wish to see come about. That is not speaking from a selfish point of view, rather, I fully believe that this attitude will lead to stagnation and reward-without-effort gameplay, thereby pushing grind-gameplay and participation-awards.

Something I can agree with you on is that the game's combat system is severely out-dated. I did find GW2 way too simple to fully enjoy though, as I struggled to find a class/spec that had enough complexity and depth to keep me engaged for more than a few hours. In a perfect world, a merge between the two could be quite good.

[kirielle]

I've mained a prot paladin since early BC. I'll be maining a prot paladin in Legion. I'm pretty sad about the direction they are taking the class in Legion, but I will never give up on the spec unless they absolutely destroy it.

In my opinion (as of many others here) MoP and WoD were the heyday of prot paladin tanking; I think this has less to do with holy power and more to do with active mitigation, as well as the additional complexity you could talent into (or opt out of) as suited your playstyle. I actually think that the level of complexity changes available in the current set of talents is pretty good; HA/Seraphim gameplay allows for engaging gameplay for players who enjoy additional complexity, while players who want a simple braindead rotation can talent into SW/HS and not hinder their performance to an extent that will cripple the raid.

If the selection of talents in Legion followed this template, I'd be fine with the removal of holy power. I don't however understand needing the game to be dumbed down to the point of mitigation being mostly passive as it was in BC - which thankfully it isn't. If you don't want to have to worry about playing your class well AND having challenging boss mechanics, well - that's what heroic mode should be for (along with passive talent selections); so you can have relatively challenging boss mechanics that need to be followed, but you don't need to worry about optimizing your mitigation or damage output. For those of us who actually enjoy both, though, we should get to have that option too; give us back our rotational complexity and ability interaction through appropriate talent selection, and let us enjoy working to optimize both our gameplay and our raid mechanics in mythic mode. I honestly don't understand why we can't have our cake and eat it too, since it seems like we were reasonably close to that already in WoD.

Incidentally, describing Wrath as WoW's peak has very little to do with raid and class design and much more with player community and engagement - didn't hurt that Wrath's storyline was more compelling and popular than the other expansions as well.

[Dastuross]

I think the way blizzard might be able to atleast sort of make both groups happy (players who just want to zone out and faceroll, and players that want engaging gameplay like myself) for instance my mom plays a prot paladin and just wants to fuck around and not have a bunch of buttons to remember to press, whereas i mythic raid and want engaging gameplay and more than a 2 button rotation so i don't fall asleep while i raid.

Something i thought of was actually something blizz had mentioned at blizzcon, making the base class (no talents selected, or passive talents selected) easy and not have many buttons, while given slightly better and active options in the same rows of talents, this way if player A wants to just faceroll they can, while player B can pick the better options and have engaging gameplay. easier said than done, and i'm not a dev so i have no idea how hard that is to implement, but it's a thought atleast.

[Melsiren]

I think the way blizzard might be able to atleast sort of make both groups happy (players who just want to zone out and faceroll, and players that want engaging gameplay like myself) for instance my mom plays a prot paladin and just wants to fuck around and not have a bunch of buttons to remember to press, whereas i mythic raid and want engaging gameplay and more than a 2 button rotation so i don't fall asleep while i raid.

Something i thought of was actually something blizz had mentioned at blizzcon, making the base class (no talents selected, or passive talents selected) easy and not have many buttons, while given slightly better and active options in the same rows of talents, this way if player A wants to just faceroll they can, while player B can pick the better options and have engaging gameplay. easier said than done, and i'm not a dev so i have no idea how hard that is to implement, but it's a thought atleast.

Prot Pally already kinda has that in the level 100 tier talents with Holyshield vs Serph.


I'm all for that, I just want the choice to be able to play at a higher skill cap/complexity.

[Dastuross]

Prot Pally already kinda has that in the level 100 tier talents with Holyshield vs Serph.

Yup, so i hope blizzard can expand that, it doesn't have to be every tier of talents, but atleast a few more would be nice.