Are Mages OP? At max ilvl.

[Sylvaeres]

how is cheesing mechanics not utility LMAO, are you insane?

that's like the definition of utility, Mage ice block/evanesce greatly simplified zakuun, xhul, mannoroth (soaking wrath).

I wouldn't consider it utility, since the fights weren't designed around those abilities. Without a mage, on Zakuun all you'd have to do is dodge a mile an hour moving wave. I'll give you zakuun, but at the same time, an extra healer would do the same job. Mannoroth, there's like 8 classes that can do the same job.

[Aphrel]

Mages are probobly the strongest class. but not by the margins you see at rankings. Bossfights like ironreaver is over in 30sec for the speedkill guilds.

[Irian]

What utility do we bring? Cheesing mechanics isn't utility. And as far as burst, cleave and aoe, each spec has that, but no single spec has all three. And also, we're not the only class to have such

The advantage of playing a pure DPS with all three in different specs is that you can switch between them effortlessly so it doesn't particularly matter that one spec doesn't have them all. If you have a spec that's extremely good at cleave, extremely good at AoE and extremely good at burst then that's more than any other class can say. Mages have the best of all of those worlds so yes, that would obviously mean they are overpowered.

And yes, cheesing mechanics is a very strong utility. If you think it isn't, tell that to DKs on Mannoroth. Just because it isn't necessarily intended (arguable in greater invis' case) to be as strong as it is in a situation doesn't mean it isn't still very strong. That's what utility means. If you bring something that isn't simple damage than that would be considered utility, and in that form mages have it in spades.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with a class being overpowered. There's almost always one that is in every tier. But it feels silly when people try to pretend their blatantly currently overpowered class is "balanced". In SoO I played a warlock and I was the first to tell people that the class was pretty silly at the time.

[pyrostorm9001]

At max ilvl strange things happen to many classes. Sometimes its the way a class interacts with a trinket or the stupid legendary ring.
Im not sure if "over powered' is the correct way to describe Mages at max ilvl, perhaps "poorly fucking planned" is more accurate.

[Sylvaeres]

The advantage of playing a pure DPS with all three in different specs is that you can switch between them effortlessly so it doesn't particularly matter that one spec doesn't have them all. If you have a spec that's extremely good at cleave, extremely good at AoE and extremely good at burst then that's more than any other class can say. Mages have the best of all of those worlds so yes, that would obviously mean they are overpowered.

And yes, cheesing mechanics is a very strong utility. If you think it isn't, tell that to DKs on Mannoroth. Just because it isn't necessarily intended (arguable in greater invis' case) to be as strong as it is in a situation doesn't mean it isn't still very strong. That's what utility means. If you bring something that isn't simple damage than that would be considered utility, and in that form mages have it in spades.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with a class being overpowered. There's almost always one that is in every tier. But it feels silly when people try to pretend their blatantly currently overpowered class is "balanced". In SoO I played a warlock and I was the first to tell people that the class was pretty silly at the time.

Honestly, that was a very well done post, so I can absolutely see your point there

[Deleted]

Mages are probobly the strongest class. but not by the margins you see at rankings. Bossfights like ironreaver is over in 30sec for the speedkill guilds.

Any pure dps class on range is probably the most - generally - applicable class for that gametype. Now that hunters go melee I expect them to lose something. The rogues as a pure dps class will always be overpowered in pve compared to other melees but being not range might give them a small disadvantage but in the big picture they compensate since by nature they are the most suitable class in pvp.

[Incredimage]

Mages have been one of the best classes in the game since BRF excelling in cleave and ST but generally lacking in burst AoE. HFC Arcane could theoretically burst higher than anyone in AoE with Prophecy but that was extremely unreliable. Fire has burst on to the scene but was generally considered not a thing during early progression and the extra ilvls have really helped it out. If you're still progressing through Mythic right now then Mages are absolutely one of the best classes and if you're doing speed kills they are the best class.

[Reforge]

Mages frontload essentially 1 minute worth of damage in their opener. So when you look at logs of fast kills, they dominate due to the ability to burst so high at the start of fights and because this portion of the fight is nowadays the majority of fight duration for most guilds, it plays into the hands of mages and allows them to soar through the ranks.

[fiestatastic]

What utility do we bring?

Evanesce wave blocking on Fel Lord, Evanesce chain stopping on Xhul, Ice block stack soaking on Mann, Evanesce blinking knock up on Arch, Invis the fireball thing on Tyrant ... prob a lot more I'm not remembering offhand

[corebit]

Balance is always out of whack at the end of every expansion with inflated ilvls. Mages get especially OP when everything is being bursted down.

[Incredimage]

Evanesce wave blocking on Fel Lord, Evanesce chain stopping on Xhul, Ice block stack soaking on Mann, Evanesce blinking knock up on Arch, Invis the fireball thing on Tyrant ... prob a lot more I'm not remembering offhand

Yea saying Mages don't bring utility is a ridiculous argument. Utility isn't just raid CDs and "cheesing mechanics" is absolutely a utility. Hunters have offered that utility for a very long time but Mages are arguably the best at it this expansion.

[Socialhealer]

how is cheesing mechanics not utility LMAO, are you insane?

that's like the definition of utility, Mage ice block/evanesce greatly simplified zakuun, xhul, mannoroth (soaking wrath).

anyone who thinks overwise is some kind of retard, that doing mechanics is just as simple as cheesing them with mages/hunters immunties etc.

if you're so damn good and mages aren't OP why didn't you go take world first from method? why aren't you a top 10 guild? i mean it's just simple mechanics you don't need to cheese right?

- - - Updated - - -

Mages frontload essentially 1 minute worth of damage in their opener. So when you look at logs of fast kills, they dominate due to the ability to burst so high at the start of fights and because this portion of the fight is nowadays the majority of fight duration for most guilds, it plays into the hands of mages and allows them to soar through the ranks.

sorry that's just bullshit.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/8#boss=1799

5-7 minute fights are not short, but it's mage dominated, this is proof, fact that mages are indeed overpowered, we're not talking 18 second iron reaver, or sub 2 minute gorefiend, we're talking the end boss of the xpac 5-7 minutes long AND STILL it's 90% mages.

[Incredimage]

sorry that's just bullshit.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/8#boss=1799

5-7 minute fights are not short, but it's mage dominated, this is proof, fact that mages are indeed overpowered, we're not talking 18 second iron reaver, or sub 2 minute gorefiend, we're talking the end boss of the xpac 5-7 minutes long AND STILL it's 90% mages.

The problem with looking at the top parses is that Mages, Arcane especially, is wildly RNG dependent especially in situations where AoE is present. Of course Mage is going to dominate the top of the logs because those at the top got their RNG to agree with them. They also make the fight shorter by stacking a bursty class like Mage.

I don't disagree with you completely, Mages are the strongest DPS class in the game right now going based on hard numbers and especially ST damage. They are not the best at all things such as target swapping or reliable AoE. In fact I would say Arcane AoE is mediocre at best unless you get lucky with Doom Nova in which case it soars to the top. Fire is better but unless it lines up with Combustion you're looking at Flamestrike (really limited uses), Dragon's Breath, and Blast Wave. Not bad at all but not overpowered either especially if adds live for a decent amount of time.

If you want to talk progression where it matters, Mages are still among the best for sure but you can't just walk in with 15 mediocre Mages and destroy everything. You still need targeted burst from something like a Destro Lock or Marks Hunter, you may still want reliable AoE from something like a Combat Rogue or Destro Lock again.

[Deleted]

Mages frontload essentially 1 minute worth of damage in their opener. So when you look at logs of fast kills, they dominate due to the ability to burst so high at the start of fights and because this portion of the fight is nowadays the majority of fight duration for most guilds, it plays into the hands of mages and allows them to soar through the ranks.

Yes if you look at the game in whole, however, ironically, it does the opposite to mages themselves. If you are not in a guild with ilevel 9000 your arcane mage will be compared to those stacked mages logs. It might be unfair if you raid leader doesn't know the ranks aren't class based but spec based (it's easier to rank as a frost with worse dps).

The fun thing is that hellfire assault is forced to be high duration so I went 96% without paying attention.

[Deleted]

The advantage of playing a pure DPS with all three in different specs is that you can switch between them effortlessly so it doesn't particularly matter that one spec doesn't have them all. If you have a spec that's extremely good at cleave, extremely good at AoE and extremely good at burst then that's more than any other class can say. Mages have the best of all of those worlds so yes, that would obviously mean they are overpowered.

And yes, cheesing mechanics is a very strong utility. If you think it isn't, tell that to DKs on Mannoroth. Just because it isn't necessarily intended (arguable in greater invis' case) to be as strong as it is in a situation doesn't mean it isn't still very strong. That's what utility means. If you bring something that isn't simple damage than that would be considered utility, and in that form mages have it in spades.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with a class being overpowered. There's almost always one that is in every tier. But it feels silly when people try to pretend their blatantly currently overpowered class is "balanced". In SoO I played a warlock and I was the first to tell people that the class was pretty silly at the time.

Pretty much this. Having 3 dps specs generally means that a spec's shortcoming is the niche of another in the same class, so swapping spec makes you fit for any encounter.

I however would not count on that in the future as artifacts levels AND different relics will have to be acquired to perform on par with each spec in addition to the current gemming / enchanting / stat prioritizing changing when swapping spec.

[Frolk]

arcane, boomie, sub are all OP if fight is under 1min

[MatthewOU2015]

Max ilvl yes.

Anything under not really. I find myself beating mages of similar item levels in HFC.

[iinverse]

As for now mages have great burst damage, good switches and one of the best raid utilities in the game (block every cavitation on Zakuun M, evade chains on Xhul M, suck debuff on Manno M, suck fire on Archie M etc etc). Therefore mage is one of the best classes for both speed kills and progression.

[Deleted]

Some further caveats are they can not tank, heal or melee (pure classes tend to be good at that role) and looking at the big picture - this may seem irrelevant here but it probably is very relevant to developers - they are probably the worst class right now in rated battlegrounds since almost nobody wants them and they are considered almost like an alternative to 1 hunter.

[fiestatastic]

anyone who thinks overwise is some kind of retard, that doing mechanics is just as simple as cheesing them with mages/hunters immunties etc.

if you're so damn good and mages aren't OP why didn't you go take world first from method? why aren't you a top 10 guild? i mean it's just simple mechanics you don't need to cheese right?

- - - Updated - - -



sorry that's just bullshit.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/8#boss=1799

5-7 minute fights are not short, but it's mage dominated, this is proof, fact that mages are indeed overpowered, we're not talking 18 second iron reaver, or sub 2 minute gorefiend, we're talking the end boss of the xpac 5-7 minutes long AND STILL it's 90% mages.

that's still rng. Don't look at top parses, looking at the median for long kills have rogues, ferals, hunters pretty clearly above mages on average, and dk's, arms warr, enh shaman and aff warlock around the same or maybe even a little higher overall average for all bosses also. For all of those mage top parses there are just as many bottom parses for mythic kills (from when PoF went on doomfire spirit, etc).

That being said, mages are still in a really good spot, esp with the mechanics utility. I just want to be very clear about this so that any straggler guilds out there working on progression don't start blaming their mages because they didn't get the rng that you are referring to in these top parses. Of the classes I mentioned above, I play all of them except arms warr and feral druid and can definitively say that none of them even have half the reliance on rng that mage does. Aff warlock and hunter have almost no reliance at all on rng and are very consistent.