Universal Income = "only solution when robots finally take our jobs"

[Mistame]

And it was a big assumption on your part that it couldn't be covered by existing discretionary spending since, point in fact, Universal Income would also replace a lot of other public assistance programs like SNAP.

This hypothetical system would cost over three trillion. The budget's only four.

[rogueMatthias]

Pretty sure that's the point that all the rich people will just build their Elysiums and leave everyone else to die, though to be honest our civilisation will likely fall apart way before that happens.

[Deleted]

Right, so basically Large corporations make Billions of dollars in places like America and Europe. You think taxing them a small part of their Billions will suddenly make all these large corporations STOP making their billions by leaving the markets they have profits in?

Sounds like you're just grabbing excuses to suck corporate dick.

But why should we tax them more? Im generally opposed to people made to pay for stuff they themselves dont want or need.

Besides you're wrong, doing this would make things worse for everyone. Companies wouldnt just go "oh boy! More taxes, what joy!", they'd protest this by laying off workers to make up for losses, move even more production to China or other countries, some companies have even completely left countries with very high taxes or ridiculous laws. And higher taxes will affect the middle and upper middle class too who unlike corporations will mostly have to suck it up and pay.

[Fencers]

Well I think the Star Trek system is flawed and idealistic and assumes everyone is a nice, dutiful person. I mean watch the movies, there are obviously cops there.. and people working in labs.. and doing a large number of other boring ass jobs, like sitting in the engine room with Scotty all day. Assuming they dont do it for money if the alternative is to just have fun all day.

In Star Trek they do those things because they are interesting. If you don't want to explore space, climb a mountain on Venus or work at medicine- federation citizens can just sit around their house. That's not a super interesting TV show though but the lore does exist that the need for subsistence, labor and shelter is largely eliminated.

There is a philosophical theory sometimes called the 'washing machine story'. Where a washing machine frees the household from the physical routine of doing laundry- which was very labor intensive and took A LOT of a family's time. When this hypothetical family finally can automate the washing machine, the children ask what they will do now. The mother says, "Now, we go to the library."

Not everyone has to be nice or cooperate. But if you eliminate labor, squalor and disease much of humanity will be freed from our physical needs vs. environment.

[Deleted]

But why should we tax them more? Im generally opposed to people made to pay for stuff they themselves dont want or need.

Besides you're wrong, doing this would make things worse for everyone. Companies wouldnt just go "oh boy! More taxes, what joy!", they'd protest this by laying off workers to make up for losses, move even more production to China or other countries, some companies have even completely left countries with very high taxes or ridiculous laws. And higher taxes will affect the middle and upper middle class too who unlike corporations will mostly have to suck it up and pay.

Oh look, they're already laying off workers and moving production to China and other countries, And guess what? They did it back in the 80ies. And Automation, the POINT of this fucking thread, would lay off even more jobs.

The Point here is Universal Income, a basic wage for living, would be the blanket for this wave of unemployment. Let me break it down for you.

Everyone has a basic living wage = more spare time for everyone.
More spare time = more time for people to educate and improve themselves or get creative.
More education and creativity = more Works of culture and Technology
And the companies get people with disposable income.

So all the companies maximize production, still have markets, and now they are making MORE PROFIT. But let's me honest, you're just a republican eating the same Anti-freemarket properganda ever.

- - - Updated - - -

In Star Trek they do those things because they are interesting. If you don't want to explore space, climb a mountain on Venus or work at medicine- federation citizens can just sit around their house.

It's like the dumbass forgot the Enterprise is a Science exploration vessal "Sitting around in the engine room with scotty" is you sitting in live experiments with prototype technology.

[Deleted]

In Star Trek they do those things because they are interesting. If you don't want to explore space, climb a mountain on Venus or work at medicine- federation citizens can just sit around their house.

Well yea but I mean watch those movies. There are still actual people doing the worst jobs imaginable. Even on the Enterprise, not everyone is a space explorer. There are people crammed up in the machine rooms just fixing shit and risking their lives. Now imagine all those people on other ships that dont even explore and just guard planets. In the real world, you just wouldnt get enough people whod sign up to do these things without some kinda motivation.

[Deleted]

Well yea but I mean watch those movies. There are still actual people doing the worst jobs imaginable. Even on the Enterprise, not everyone is a space explorer. There are people crammed up in the machine rooms just fixing shit and risking their lives. Now imagine all those people on other ships that dont even explore and just guard planets. In the real world, you just wouldnt get enough people whod sign up to do these things without some kinda motivation.

The Motivation is progression in your career. Start as an ensign, move up. The Reward is your Job.

[Deleted]

INot everyone has to be nice or cooperate. But if you eliminate labor, squalor and disease much of humanity will be freed from our physical needs vs. environment.

And Id be all for it, but it depends on how we do it. Lets take Start Treks society. Im guessing it doesnt have any form of currency at all? And Im also assuming land is limited and everyone cant just have everything they want. If Im correct, its still a society where things have value, but you have removed to option to actually earn value. How is this different from communism exactly?

If done right however, we wouldnt have to change anything to make it happen. Just government controlled automated factories, mining operations etc. paying for this as opposed to private citizens and corporations. Think like in Norway.. but with automation you can expand that to other things than just having large reserves of natural resources.

- - - Updated - - -

The Motivation is progression in your career. Start as an ensign, move up. The Reward is your Job.

Thats commie talk, mister. Id much rather have an actual reward.. like a bigger house for starters.

[Deleted]

Thats commie talk, mister. Id much rather have an actual reward.. like a bigger house for starters.

Not really, I dream of a world more of a Neo-Classical world where Scholastic endevours and imaginative thinking are the main focuses of humanity instead of drudging away as Thralls.

[Deleted]

Not really, I dream of a world more of a Neo-Classical world where Scholastic endevours and imaginative thinking are the main focuses of humanity instead of drudging away as Thralls.

Yea and thats all very swell and awesome but you fail to see the problem and this is that youre not content with having that option, you also want to force everyone else to live that way too and prioritize things your way. So if someone is more.. materialistically oriented, whats wrong with that? Star Trek would only work in a universe with unlimited resources.

[Deleted]

Yea and thats all very swell and awesome but you fail to see the problem and this is that youre not content with having that option, you also want to force everyone else to live that way too and prioritize things your way. So if someone is more.. materialistically oriented, whats wrong with that? Star Trek would only work in a universe with unlimited resources.

There ARE limitations in the star trek Universe sure, not everyone is given a huge Mansion in southern france. There ARE material rewards to your station, but they are tied to it, they are tied to your deeds, not your money.

[Deleted]

There ARE limitations in the star trek Universe sure, not everyone is given a huge Mansion in southern france. There ARE material rewards to your station, but they are tied to it, they are tied to your deeds, not your money.

Well such a system just wouldnt work, its been tried. Deeds would then soon be replaced by position.. positions would be given to relatives and friends. And youd still get an upper class whod just get all the good jobs and the rewards that come with it.

[Fencers]

And Id be all for it, but it depends on how we do it. Lets take Start Treks society. Im guessing it doesnt have any form of currency at all?

Some systems do. But in the Federation money doesn't exist any longer. They eliminated need of necessities. There only exist luxury which is personal and based on personal desire.

And Im also assuming land is limited and everyone cant just have everything they want.

They can live almost anywhere. Thousands of worlds and artificial environments.

If Im correct, its still a society where things have value, but you have removed to option to actually earn value. How is this different from communism exactly?

Personal value, yes. Monetary value, no. It is communism. It's a perfect society- that's communism.

Thats commie talk, mister. Id much rather have an actual reward.. like a bigger house for starters.

Well, joking aside. Communism is a human eventuality. Given sufficient relief from need, we would only be left with cooperation and self reflection. That's what the people of the Star Trek have- their own betterment for it's own sake. As Picard once said, "We work to enrich our minds and being."

[Deleted]

Well such a system just wouldnt work, its been tried. Deeds would then soon be replaced by position.. positions would be given to relatives and friends. And youd still get an upper class whod just get all the good jobs and the rewards that come with it.

True enough, the issue there is in the Star trek Universe the differences between say, Star Fleet Admiral and say... Number 2 on a no-name exploration vessal is almost nothing.

In fact, the Admiral job is ten times harder. That's sort of the point. when the "Poor" are almost exactly the same as the "Rich" save for less titles and maybe a little less luxary, what else is there?

[Deleted]

Well, joking aside. Communism is a human eventuality. Given sufficient relief from need, we would only be left with cooperation and self reflection. That's what the people of the Star Trek have- their own betterment for it's own sake. As Picard once said, "We work to enrich our minds and being."

I think thats pretty naive and idealistic though. Greed and wanting to be better than others, have more than others and control others is part of human nature. And a capitalist society has better control mechanisms and is more transparent to corruption because its less autocratic and values personal freedoms more.

Any communist society can only be achieved by force otherwise what will you do with those who say screw it, Ill start my own capitalism, with alternative currency and starts hoarding land or art or whatever people may desire. You can only stop that by also making having personal property illegal and that would not end well at all.

[Deleted]

I think thats pretty naive and idealistic though. Greed and wanting to be better than others, have more than others and control others is part of human nature. And a capitalist society has better control mechanisms and is more transparent to corruption because its less autocratic and values personal freedoms more.

Any communist society can only be achieved by force otherwise what will you do with those who say screw it, Ill start my own capitalism, with alternative currency and starts hoarding land or art or whatever people may desire. You can only stop that by also making having personal property illegal and that would not end well at all.

Let me make this easy for you. In Star Wars, everyone has a replicator.

Replicators produce almost anything. You want a video game? BAM. You have a 3 course perfect meal? BAM. And they're free, Replicators are literally free.

And then there are Holodeck, now Holodeck are pretty huge and need lots of resources, so few people actually have access to a personal Holodeck. But they're basically the best form of entertainment and easily accessible.

The point is in Star Trek, technology has advanced so far that any perceived advantage having tons and tons of money would have is basically naming conventions.

Companies are 99% Research groups because theything discovered can be replicated, usually.

[Deleted]

True enough, the issue there is in the Star trek Universe the differences between say, Star Fleet Admiral and say... Number 2 on a no-name exploration vessal is almost nothing.

In fact, the Admiral job is ten times harder. That's sort of the point. when the "Poor" are almost exactly the same as the "Rich" save for less titles and maybe a little less luxary, what else is there?

But that brings us right back to motivation. Titles and pride from ones work doesn't motivate materialistically minded people who are the majority. Ok I guess you can kinda say, well screw them but then their potential would be lost. That society would advance much faster if youd also give them the right motivation.. so if everyone already has enough to live comfortable, why not also have currency and let them work for a really big house and their own personal baseball team as the carrot?

[Soeroah]

Ironically, I get a sense of fulfilment from helping out at a local charity. UBI would vastly reduce the stressors to get a job, and I'd keep volunteering there because I enjoy it.

But with a UBI, the charity would probably be redundant :/

[Deleted]

But that brings us right back to motivation. Titles and pride from ones work doesn't motivate materialistically minded people who are the majority. Ok I guess you can kinda say, well screw them but then their potential would be lost. That society would advance much faster if youd also give them the right motivation.. so if everyone already has enough to live comfortable, why not also have currency and let them work for a really big house and their own personal baseball team as the carrot?

Because Society doesn't need them? Why do we need people to be factory workers when soon we'll have automated self sustaining factories? Why would we need farmers when automated hydroponic farms are so efficient?

You'll be surprised how good a motivator free time is. People do get bored of doing nothing.

[oxymoronic]

Oh look, they're already laying off workers and moving production to China and other countries, And guess what? They did it back in the 80ies. And Automation, the POINT of this fucking thread, would lay off even more jobs.

The Point here is Universal Income, a basic wage for living, would be the blanket for this wave of unemployment. Let me break it down for you.

Everyone has a basic living wage = more spare time for everyone.
More spare time = more time for people to educate and improve themselves or get creative.
More education and creativity = more Works of culture and Technology
And the companies get people with disposable income.

So all the companies maximize production, still have markets, and now they are making MORE PROFIT. But let's me honest, you're just a republican eating the same Anti-freemarket properganda ever.

- - - Updated - - -



It's like the dumbass forgot the Enterprise is a Science exploration vessal "Sitting around in the engine room with scotty" is you sitting in live experiments with prototype technology.

why does he have to be a republican? just cause he can't think this out in a rational manner? he might be a democrat too you know.