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  1. #101
    I'd say no. Player investments and expectations aren't even in the same ballpark any longer.

  2. #102
    Herald of the Titans Zenotetsuken's Avatar
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    No, they aren't the same.

    2004 Casuals are the "Average" raider today; some boss kills, but not good/committed enough to push for much beyond that.

    2016 Casuals are what I would consider "Tourist" players. They show up, and expect to be shown around so that they can experience some of the things a new place has to offer, but in the end they mainly just want to go to the popular attraction and get some cheap gift shop junk to show off to their friends when they get back home.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I'd say no. Player investments and expectations aren't even in the same ballpark any longer.
    Which has nothing to do with the stereotype.

    The hatefull stereotype is still the same.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Oh look it's that bullshit excuse again lol, do you know how many people were adults during Vanilla/TBC? LOTS! Do you know how many raiders (heroic/mythic) are adults with families and jobs? LOTS!...........it's called time management, it is something adults know how to do.
    Re-read the last 3 sentences.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by styil View Post
    The common argument for keeping the current status-quo in World of Warcraft (and even making the game easier) is that WoW has always been a "casual game". However, I believe that there has been a generational shift in the last 12 years, and that the playstyle habits of "casual" players in 2004 do not resemble the playstyle habits of "casual" players in 2016. I think that 2004 "casuals" would be classified more as "hardcore" players by today's standards. If someone told me back in 2004 that it's very possible to get to max level in several hours I would have assumed that they were delusional. Or that spamming 1 profession item could max your profession level. Or that all the resources that you'd ever need were all found in a one stop location.

    Therefore I believe that using the "casual" argument to justify the continuous easing of non-Mythic raid content over the last 12 years is disingenuous at best. It is very clear that the difficulty of and time investment into the game has significantly changed over the years, and the playstyle habits of players in 2004 is very different to the playstyle habits of players now.

    Do you feel that the "casual" term as used in 2016 is referring to players of the same playstyle habits as it was in 2004? Why/Why not? What are the implications of this (if any)?
    no they are not. cause of 2 reasons:

    1) 2004ones even tried it at least

    2) since the game was way more challenging you HAD to learn, even if you learned slow. today the game supports ppl to not learn.

  6. #106
    WoW has NEVER been a difficult enough game for ANYONE to give themselves the "hardcore" moniker. PvP is retarded, there's no risk vs reward. It's pve with human opponents, most of the time. PvE at all difficulties is scripted, so to walk around with your chest puffed out because you did some mythic content is a waste of time, and makes you look like an elitist asshat. If anyone played UO pre-trammel you know what I'm talking about. win a 5v1 with a tank mage before you talk about being hardcore.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Redtower View Post
    Trying to get people to improve and pull their own weight isn't a bad thing casual...
    It is if said person is a rude jerk about it. I rather deal with 1,000 "bad" casuals to 1 asshat who thinks hes a gift to wow players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Have you seen my posts over the past few days? You should be asking yourself why I'm alive, not why I don't have friends.
    Change is inevitable, Growth is optional.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    Which has nothing to do with the stereotype.

    The hatefull stereotype is still the same.
    I never said it did. The stereotype is kind of irrelevant to the discussion.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I never said it did. The stereotype is kind of irrelevant to the discussion.
    This discussion is entirely about the stereotype.

    It's the same as if Trump fans would talk about mexican people.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    WoW has NEVER been a difficult enough game for ANYONE to give themselves the "hardcore" moniker. PvP is retarded, there's no risk vs reward. It's pve with human opponents, most of the time. PvE at all difficulties is scripted, so to walk around with your chest puffed out because you did some mythic content is a waste of time, and makes you look like an elitist asshat. If anyone played UO pre-trammel you know what I'm talking about. win a 5v1 with a tank mage before you talk about being hardcore.
    We have had this talk before about varying levels of difficulty I don't know why you fall back to it once again... I don't think anyone is asking for everything to be darksoul levels of difficulty...

  11. #111
    The Lightbringer Ahovv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Time in game is time in game, it has nothing to do with raiding time because there is more to WoW than raiding (contrary to peoples opinion), I see someone who is on 3 hrs a day every day as not very casual as opposed to say a raider who is on 2-3 hrs 2-3 times a week, non-raiders spend more time on LFR than a regular raider would in normal raids each week.

    I see non-raiders with 20 level 100's in full LFR/Tanaan gear, that is NOT casual.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I know right? Who wants to work up to something in a game and actually enjoy playing it? I mean c'mon this instant gratification just to bitch at Blizzard for being bored in 3 weeks is so fucking EPIC! YEAH! /sarcasm
    You're either painfully blind or just unintelligent. I said nothing about instant gratification as that isn't what I care about. You also didn't address how simple the boss mechanics were in early WoW.

    It's ok to like the longer grinds, particularly leveling up. I like those as well. But I despise simple mechanics, and that is what classic WoW consisted of in its entirety.

  12. #112
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    You're either painfully blind or just unintelligent. I said nothing about instant gratification as that isn't what I care about. You also didn't address how simple the boss mechanics were in early WoW.

    It's ok to like the longer grinds, particularly leveling up. I like those as well. But I despise simple mechanics, and that is what classic WoW consisted of in its entirety.
    Sorry but mechanics aren't much harder now, though as I have stated I am a firm believer in the encounters should be difficult not the classes, also if you look at the molten core that came out for the birthday thing, yeah many wipes were to be had and back then they WERE hard for 2 reasons..........1) People didn't know wtf they were doing really and 2) People didn't have all the self heals etc they do now.
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by spurx View Post
    Cleared Nax. We never bothered with any of that nonsense. Raiding was not hard in Vanilla and those consumables were only necessary on certain progression fights and usually only for the first kill.

    It follows the same mentality you see in today's WoW, where groups want 720+ item level to complete normal Hellfire Citadel. Consumables in Vanilla weren't that necessary.
    When you had enough gear yes, you did not need as many consumables. There were very few guilds that had quasi-full Naxx gear. If you were in Nihilum, you had a maximum of 17 weeks to gear up before TBC launched.

    I'm guessing you cleared Naxx all bosses one shots and in a week right? I was there as well. You're acting tough on the internet.

  14. #114
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    12 years in gaming circles is a lifetime. Things change, gaming has changed. Simple as that.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    12 years in gaming circles is a lifetime. Things change, gaming has changed. Simple as that.
    Maybe for you.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    Maybe for you.
    Gaming has changed, it's a simple fact. Go back 12 years ago and look at DLC, it was a rareish thing to see. now we have day 1 DLC. Mobile (phone) gaming is a big big thing now, it wasn't in 2004.

    The 2016 "casuals" are generally better than the 2004 "casuals". WoW has always been the "casual" MMO anyways.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    The 2016 "casuals" are generally better than the 2004 "casuals". WoW has always been the "casual" MMO anyways.
    Casuals can raid now. Sure you might not be raiding mythics as a casual player, but you *can* do a similar version of the content without worrying too much about dragging your friends down.

    10 years ago ? Yeah, you could raid... but you'd be one of the 30 clueless people being carried while the other 10 worked their butts off cuz the kill meant something to them.

    And good god. The memories I had of "casuals" that wanted to raid. Retaholytankadins and cloth hunters galore.

  18. #118
    The Lightbringer Ahovv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    Sorry but mechanics aren't much harder now, though as I have stated I am a firm believer in the encounters should be difficult not the classes, also if you look at the molten core that came out for the birthday thing, yeah many wipes were to be had and back then they WERE hard for 2 reasons..........1) People didn't know wtf they were doing really and 2) People didn't have all the self heals etc they do now.
    Yeah either you're trolling or really dumb. I'm done with this conversation.

    Infracted

  19. #119
    I am Murloc! Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    Yeah either you're trolling or really dumb. I'm done with this conversation.
    Stay out of bad move when this happens...........same thing, only now people have a clue and we also have a lot of "oh shit" buttons to mitigate damage or heal up after, if you doubt this then yeah sorry.
    History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people - Martin Luther King, Jr.

  20. #120
    Bloodsail Admiral Allenseiei's Avatar
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    Casuals are usually defined the same way in 2004 and 2016.

    A casual is usually defined as player who is not into competition, who doesn't have any quotas, or any imposed goals to reach in a certain time. Basically a person who plays at his own pace without any regards to what others do.

    The difference from 2004 and 2016 is the context.

    1. In 2004, most MMO's, especially outside of WoW, were extremely time consuming and punishing. The definition of a casual then wouldn't vary, but a casual would still spend many hours playing the game. He had to commit time and effort to achieve whatever he/she wanted to achieve. Players had a different attitude than today and would adapt to the game, instead of insisting that the game should adapt to them.

    2. In 2016, everything has changed. Most MMO's are no longer extremely time consuming and punishing. People are self entitled to things they aren't entitled and make everything complicated. The definition of casual is still the same, just that they don't have to commit time and effort to achieve things since everything is handed down to them. Thus, to them, it seems there is no content.

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