[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Kelemar]

Oh definitly! That wasnt my point at all.

DP is definitly very good. But EDS was cool aswell. That was my point. That am how much i loathe the dumb little twisters from divine tempest.

Oh, then I apologize sincerely. I was mistaken about the intention behind your post. And yes, I completely agree with your point on both ends, needing a proc and Divine Tempest being somewhat dumb.

AoW on BoJ, DP baseline, Divine Tempest just increasing the range - that's what I'd like to see. Currently Ret is stale and boring without end.

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Would it be too overpowered if Divine Purpose was baseline and did what some people here are suggesting?

OP or not, doesn't matter. Numbers can still be tuned, and the mechanic alone wouldn't make us OP. Since PvP and PvE are kind of seperate now, there is a very slim chance that it wouldn't affect either part of the game too much if it got out of hand in one of it.

[garonne]

i remember divine purpose back in dragon soul on ultraxion, when you got lucky with procs you were on top of the world, high as a kite, but with no procs you were depressed as shit, suffering withdrawals from not having a proc... divine purpose make you feel like a drug addict, i dont like it.

Emp DS, it was an ok proc, but for a class that already sucks on cleaving, having rng cleave isn't my cup of tea either.

Art of war was negligible bc exo was weak sauce but with the new design of holy power holding more weight, art of war seems to be the best option (if applied to Blade of justice) might even say the proc adding a damage component to Blade of Justice as well (auto attacks reset the Cd of BoJ and inceases it damage by 30%) this way, not only does it give us holy power for DS/TV, it can also give us single target damage through Virtue's blade crit , blade of wrath gives even more holy power for finishers, and divine power gives us the extra cleave/aoe damage.


my vote is Art of War applied to Blade of Justice.

[Animefreak3K]

Would it be too overpowered if Divine Purpose was baseline and did what some people here are suggesting?

If Ret isn't spending so much Holy Power, also we're lost the Divine Storm Proc, so it cannot be overpowered.
I could be pretty strong if you have enough Haste, to generate much more HP to spend.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If Ret isn't spending so much Holy Power, also we're lost the Divine Storm Proc, so it cannot be overpowered.
I could be pretty strong if you have enough Haste, to generate much more HP to spend.

That would be the problem, having to wait a few seconds for your cds to refresh and having no attacks to use sucks hardcore.

[Solsacra]

The problem with an Art of War effect on Blade of Justice, or any of the variants, is that the extra Holy Power generated would more than likely put us near HP cap. Then we would be relegated to doing nothing until Judgment is available. Art of War on Blade of Justice wouldn't really do anything, at best it would be DPS neutral or quite likely in BoW's case a significant DPS loss. So ultimately, its the same thing as live Art of War, weak and meaningless like Exorcism.

If we need a proc, it needs to be something new and unique, that doesn't prescribe to familiar paradigms. It also shouldn't be something similar to a Judgment CD reset, because that simply makes us more like Arms Warriors, which is something we already need to further distinguish ourselves from.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The problem with an Art of War effect on Blade of Justice, or any of the variants, is that the extra Holy Power generated would more than likely put us near HP cap. Then we would be relegated to doing nothing until Judgment is available. Art of War on Blade of Justice wouldn't really do anything, at best, it would be DPS neutral, or quite likely, in BoW's case, a significant DPS loss. So ultimately, its the same thing as live Art of War, weak and meaningless like Exorcism.

If we need a proc, it needs to be something new and unique, that doesn't prescribe to familiar paradigms. It also shouldn't be something similar to a Judgment CD reset, because that simply makes us more like Arms Warriors, which is something we already need to further distinguish ourselves from.

We're already similar to Arms Warriors because of the dumb Judgement/Colossus Smash gameplay. Which is stupid.

[Solsacra]

I mean, i could just as easily argue that Holy Power = Combo Points, therefore we're already similar to rogues. I don't think that is something that will go away, nor does it need too. I think people here are placing over-emphasis on how 'weak' our damage is outside of Judgment. It's really not that bad.

The whole 'wahhhh' we don't do as much DPS as everyone else, is a waste of air, tuning hasn't happened yet. Trying to facilitate an argument off of what we have now for numbers is pretty silly.

[Ulthane]

The problem with an Art of War effect on Blade of Justice, or any of the variants, is that the extra Holy Power generated would more than likely put us near HP cap. Then we would be relegated to doing nothing until Judgment is available. Art of War on Blade of Justice wouldn't really do anything, at best it would be DPS neutral or quite likely in BoW's case a significant DPS loss. So ultimately, its the same thing as live Art of War, weak and meaningless like Exorcism.

If we need a proc, it needs to be something new and unique, that doesn't prescribe to familiar paradigms. It also shouldn't be something similar to a Judgment CD reset, because that simply makes us more like Arms Warriors, which is something we already need to further distinguish ourselves from.

Thoughts
-Conviction: Have it there on top of the Fires of Justice buff?
-Divine Purpose: Maybe have it back in some form as Finisher procs? Some like it, some hate it, some are indifferent.
-New ability: Maybe something that activates on proc only? A filler ability that does a lot. @Nuin Your Scarlet Onslaught type of ability perhaps?

I think the core root of the problem is the Resource. We can talk about for days about how to make great ideas around Holy Power and the current builds they have now. I threw around many as others have had. But let's face it, Holy Power needs to either be the SOLE resource or tuned differently. You could see the sole resource where we have no mana and still 5 Holy Power or we have a Holy Power meter. Honestly just 5 Holy Power and no Mana could make for very very interesting game play choices in the long term. Or just a Holy Power bar itself.

But we see the following currently.

Judgment applying debuff window
We dump in this window
We generate and use filler
Odd downtimes? Need a proc.

Well with Conviction it just means we still have to wait on downtime.
With Divine Purpose it might be active outside of Judgment and create problems for us.
New Ability? And how would it work.
Art of War: Well if it creates Holy Power capping issues then well that is an issue.

So if we have a proc around abilities then the only logical choices are: Art of War refreshing Judgment and/or new ability all together that is Proc activated. Or a proc that systematically reduces CDs.

Art of War: Your abilities reduce the Cooldowns of other abilities by X.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I mean, i could just as easily argue that Holy Power = Combo Points, therefore we're already similar to rogues. I don't think that is something that will go away, nor does it need too. I think people here are placing over-emphasis on how 'weak' our damage is outside of Judgment. It's really not that bad.

The whole 'wahhhh' we don't do as much DPS as everyone else, is a waste of air, tuning hasn't happened yet. Trying to facilitate an argument off of what we have now for numbers is pretty silly.

I think the Judgement gameplay is dumb. I mean we already have to deal with Holy Power generating and on top of the Judgement/colossus gameplay. I just think with the way they function, it clashes and makes it more annoying then *interesting*.

[Ulthane]

Actually yea, having your abilities or attacks lower your CD's is unique and it of itself would fix a lot of issues. One might throw the OP card out but with things are now is it?

[Solsacra]

I've thrown a similar idea out before, in fact, quite recently. Last build, i think. The argument was that Grater Judgment reduces the level of overall choice for the level 30 talent tier. We only have the choice of picking and living with baseline crusader strike, or judgment. I said that Greater Judgment should be retooled and relocated so that Crusader Flurry could return, with a new functionality. Specifically, Crusader flurry casts reduce the cooldown of Judgment by X seconds.... In fact, the spell already exists.

[Krekko]

Post by Solscra in the Ret discussion thread on Alpha forum or Beta forum whatever. I'm also slightly curious what improved of sorts.

After about 72 solid hours of playing on the Alpha I can say I share a lot of (at least my understanding) the sentiments in Solscra's post. I think there's a few major improvements that were made to the Spec, though some things still need to be fixed (Alpha is Alpha. However as a Paladin fanatic (I have a problem man) who loves Paladins because of the way they play, this is the first expansion that the Spec feels foreign to me, and it's truly breaking my heart.

It doesn't feel like a Paladin anymore as at least I've grown to know them over the past 11+ years. It feels disjointed from what it was, and while it's not necessarily in a bad spot, a lot of the spec has been left to the wayside and that really sucks.

Just a few quick notes about things. I'm SUPER happy to have consecration back. It should be baseline, but even as a talent I'm happy to have it back. Consecration was IMO, a class defining spell, and in the loss of so many aspects of the class/spec, it's nice to have that back. I'm also surprised at how little I miss seals. I thought I'd miss them a lot more than I do but I feel that they had been neglected so long and their potential lost time and time again that I'd already given up on them and not realize it. On the flip side I didn't think I'd miss Hammer of Wrath as much as I do, but I REALLY do miss it. I guess that's the downside of removing an active ability that's been apart of your rotation for so long. The end of fights seem just weird now.

There's just something missing from the SPIRIT of Retribution which is now reflected in the gameplay and it's really getting to me. It's kind of like walking into your childhood home that you have fond memories of and realizing that it only looks the same on the outside, and all of the inside has been gutted and is now this new sleek modern interior. Does the modern interior look good? Sure! Does it fit the house and what you loved about it? Not quite, no.

Judgement is also in a weird spot. It needs interaction with SOMETHING. That's where seals came into play. Seals being gone is a bummer in the sense that they had SO much opportunity to be incredibly interactive (add an effect for Exorcism and seals and we'd have been pretty cool). It's a shame to see this also fall to the wayside. Once again it's a shift away from what made Paladins, well, Paladins.

Oh, and I'm also not a fan of the Greater Blessings. They're just in a weird spot right now, seems like a step backwards, or a weird place to put that emphasis.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I've thrown a similar idea out before, in fact, quite recently. Last build, i think. The argument was that Grater Judgment reduces the level of overall choice for the level 30 talent tier. We only have the choice of picking and living with baseline crusader strike, or judgment. I said that Greater Judgment should be retooled and relocated so that Crusader Flurry could return, with a new functionality. Specifically, Crusader flurry casts reduce the cooldown of Judgment by X seconds.... In fact, the spell already exists.

Really I don't mind the idea of Crusader Flurry but there's not much difference if baseline Crusader Strike already has charges. IMO CS should have no charges baseline and a talent changing it would be a good idea to.


And yes Krekko I think Consecration should be baseline instead of worrying about Holy Power charges via Divine Storm :/

[Alindra]

The problem with an Art of War effect on Blade of Justice, or any of the variants, is that the extra Holy Power generated would more than likely put us near HP cap. Then we would be relegated to doing nothing until Judgment is available. Art of War on Blade of Justice wouldn't really do anything, at best it would be DPS neutral or quite likely in BoW's case a significant DPS loss. So ultimately, its the same thing as live Art of War, weak and meaningless like Exorcism.

If we need a proc, it needs to be something new and unique, that doesn't prescribe to familiar paradigms. It also shouldn't be something similar to a Judgment CD reset, because that simply makes us more like Arms Warriors, which is something we already need to further distinguish ourselves from.

I think Blizzard has kind of designed themselves into a corner in terms of our gameplay. Our HP pool is really tiny (relative to our spenders) and pushing back our builders directly impacts our HP generation over time. Further, without Greater Judgment, our burst phase would be Judgment -> TV -> Builder -> TV, which accounts for half the time of our rotation.

If the proc gives us additional HP, then we'll risk capping out early and doing nothing (and/or wasting HP generation by having BoJ/BoW sitting on CD while capped).
If the proc is +dmg% on our finishers, then they may have to tune their damage lower because of burst potential (especially if it can chain).
If it's activating a normally inactive ability, then it will be competing with a builder/spender, or ignored until we have a gap.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but there doesn't seem like there is a lot of design space for Blizzard to work with.


I've personally grown very fond of the T18 playstyle of being very flexible with our burst periods. What if our builders were CD limited like they are now, but we had a higher HP cap and it was Judgment that had charges? Perhaps with fairly spammable (non-HP building) attack. We could pool for a burst phase, AoE, hold Judgment for a target swap, movement phase, then unleash when we get back in range. If we had a higher HP cap, then they could play with attacks with varying costs more (to a degree) or have an AoW proc for builders. Heck, they could potentially even play with abilities that cost Judgment charges.

I won't presume to be know much about modern PvP, but it means while being kited, we would be storing Judgment charges for when we did get into range.

...I won't lie. The more I started writing and the more I started thinking about it, the more I started liking it.

[Ulthane]

I've thrown a similar idea out before, in fact, quite recently. Last build, i think. The argument was that Grater Judgment reduces the level of overall choice for the level 30 talent tier. We only have the choice of picking and living with baseline crusader strike, or judgment. I said that Greater Judgment should be retooled and relocated so that Crusader Flurry could return, with a new functionality. Specifically, Crusader flurry casts reduce the cooldown of Judgment by X seconds.... In fact, the spell already exists.

This should be a baseline ability not a talent, if the holy power generation has to be taken away then so be it. But this would be a proper filler mechanic. This being said I think the ret should look something like this based off everything.

Abilities
-Consecration: Now baseline, all specs.
-Divine Steed: Now baseline, all specs.
-Judgment Strike: New ability as you posted up.
-Shield of Vengeance: Now refreshes every 15 seconds. Acts like Sacred Shield in a way. @Nuin Your idea
-Eye for an Eye: Baseline ret.
-Judgment: Now acts as a buff not a debuff.


Level 15
-Final Verdict: Caked into actual abilities.
--Justicar's Vengeance: Replaces Templar's Verdict, deals massive damage and heals you for the amount. 5 Holy Power. (Maybe double damgae of a normal TV)
-Execution Sentence: As is
-Holy Wrath: Lowered CD to 20 - 30 seconds.

Level 30
-The Fires of Justice: Now also causes Crusader Strike to deal radiant damage.
-Crusader Flurry: CD reduction now down to 1 - 1.5 seconds. (So 3 or 3.5 second CD)
-Zeal: Haste gain returns.

Level 45
Fine as is

Level 60
-Virtue's Blade: Built in Art of War effect maybe? Or fine as is.
-Blade of Wrath: Deals 240% weapon damage as holy damage over 8 seconds.
-Divine Hammer: Now generates 2 Holy Power.

Level 75
-Blaze of Light: Replaces Flash of Light, instant cast, massive heal on a 10 second cooldown.
-Hand of Light: As it was before but now a talent.
-Word of Glory: Remove CD factor. No point in having a CD on this.

Level 90
-Divine Intervention: As is
-Judgment Charger: Reduces the cooldown of your Divine Steed by 50% and causes you to be immune to all movement impairing effects and crowd control for the duration.
-Pursuit of Justice: Increases base movement speed by 20% and for every holy power you have reduce the effects of crowd control by 10% per holy power up to 30%.

Level 100
-Blessings of Justice: Baseline, baked into the actual Greater Blessings, replaced by Mass Judgement.
--Mass Judgement: Judgment now affects all enemies within 8 yards of your primary target and increases duration of the buff (or debuff if it remains) by 100%.
-Greater Judgment: Judgment now generates 1 holy power and it's damage is increased by 50%.
-Hammer of Wrath: Replaces Judgment. Using this ability increases your mastery by X and in addition this damage deals additional damage based off the % of health the target is missing.

Artifact
-Wake of Ashes: Fine as is
-Ashes to Ashes: Fine as is
-Echo of the Highlord: Using Templar's Verdict grants you Echo of the Highlord. Increase strength by X and heal yourself for a % of your health. For the next 10 seconds you deal %AP damage as holy damage to your primary target and up to 5 near by enemies.
-Divine Tempest: When you use Divine Storm you can cast a second one immediately after for Free and it deals 100% increased damage with 100% additional radius.

NOTE: This is taking from what everyone is saying. Equality sucks, the concept is good but I don't know how they can reasonably fix it. Either its going to be super broken or super nerfed there is no middle ground imo. Looking at this Judgment Strike concept that would be the big key into fixing the rotation and fantasy i'd imagine. And as @Krekko said, I agree 100%. I love this spec, i have been playing Retribution since vanilla and its like seeing this, seeing the builds it hurts man. I don't have an alpha but playing as long as I have you get the grasp of when something is wrong.

In regard to Judgment being a buff, if that is TOO op and has to remain a debuff then so be it. But like Aeluron in here and others we all can say it needs to be a buff.
@Solscra I had no idea about that Judgment Strike until you brought it up. Even with the build as is that would fix a ton of problems but because of how good it inherently is to smoothing things out it has to be baseline imo unless I am totally wrong.

[Reghame]

I've thrown a similar idea out before, in fact, quite recently. Last build, i think. The argument was that Grater Judgment reduces the level of overall choice for the level 30 talent tier. We only have the choice of picking and living with baseline crusader strike, or judgment. I said that Greater Judgment should be retooled and relocated so that Crusader Flurry could return, with a new functionality. Specifically, Crusader flurry casts reduce the cooldown of Judgment by X seconds.... In fact, the spell already exists.

The only problem i have with this spell is wether or not it is an addition or a replacement to crusader strike. Because of these two things, how will this work with haste because judgement's cooldown and can theoretically be low enough to where such a talent becomes dead in the water past X amount of haste, and because of how stats work, this talent could very well be unused for a majority of the expansion.

As for the DP EMPds thing, with the amount of holypower we currently generate, such procs have no place in ret currently. i understand that a ret without procs is odd but at the same time we no longer need them in this form without the problem we have now which is too many "hard" hitter spells being thrown around means they dont really hit hard anymore.

and its quite odd that all this talk of procs are coming about to begin with. In all honesty we had a VERY good and reliable proc at the start of alpha with conviction which GAVE holypower to us quite often. now that it was removed and put into a single talent in reverse people are now asking for it back.
Need i remind you that on live we have the option for things like DP via talents and EMP ds is baseline as well and i would argue that MANY people have bitched and moaned about these even existing because they were procs and procs made ret feel "unreliable and useless"

As for judgement as a whole however, im not too certain what else can be done with the spell. the way it works now is something that you want to spam and you want to delay finishers while its not up but because of the raw amount of holypower we can generate is so high, thats not much of an option sometimes. Because of this we want to get as much haste as possible to lower the window of not being able to use finishers. This does cap and this begs to question what ret is intended to be
Is it a quick haste dps style of play?
or a punishing hard hitter mastery style.

This is something we and blizzard have to figure out, ask, and communicate with one another because this is the problem i think the community and blizzard themselves are at a crossroads at.

[ruiizu]

This should be a baseline ability not a talent, if the holy power generation has to be taken away then so be it. But this would be a proper filler mechanic. This being said I think the ret should look something like this based off everything.

Abilities
-Consecration: Now baseline, all specs.
-Divine Steed: Now baseline, all specs.
-Judgment Strike: New ability as you posted up.
-Shield of Vengeance: Now refreshes every 15 seconds. Acts like Sacred Shield in a way. @Nuin Your idea
-Eye for an Eye: Baseline ret.
-Judgment: Now acts as a buff not a debuff.


Level 15
-Final Verdict: Caked into actual abilities.
--Justicar's Vengeance: Replaces Templar's Verdict, deals massive damage and heals you for the amount. 5 Holy Power. (Maybe double damgae of a normal TV)
-Execution Sentence: As is
-Holy Wrath: Lowered CD to 20 - 30 seconds.

Level 30
-The Fires of Justice: Now also causes Crusader Strike to deal radiant damage.
-Crusader Flurry: CD reduction now down to 1 - 1.5 seconds. (So 3 or 3.5 second CD)
-Zeal: Haste gain returns.

Level 45
Fine as is

Level 60
-Virtue's Blade: Built in Art of War effect maybe? Or fine as is.
-Blade of Wrath: Deals 240% weapon damage as holy damage over 8 seconds.
-Divine Hammer: Now generates 2 Holy Power.

Level 75
-Blaze of Light: Replaces Flash of Light, instant cast, massive heal on a 10 second cooldown.
-Hand of Light: As it was before but now a talent.
-Word of Glory: Remove CD factor. No point in having a CD on this.

Level 90
-Divine Intervention: As is
-Judgment Charger: Reduces the cooldown of your Divine Steed by 50% and causes you to be immune to all movement impairing effects and crowd control for the duration.
-Pursuit of Justice: Increases base movement speed by 20% and for every holy power you have reduce the effects of crowd control by 10% per holy power up to 30%.

Level 100
-Blessings of Justice: Baseline, baked into the actual Greater Blessings, replaced by Mass Judgement.
--Mass Judgement: Judgment now affects all enemies within 8 yards of your primary target and increases duration of the buff (or debuff if it remains) by 100%.
-Greater Judgment: Judgment now generates 1 holy power and it's damage is increased by 50%.
-Hammer of Wrath: Replaces Judgment. Using this ability increases your mastery by X and in addition this damage deals additional damage based off the % of health the target is missing.

Artifact
-Wake of Ashes: Fine as is
-Ashes to Ashes: Fine as is
-Echo of the Highlord: Using Templar's Verdict grants you Echo of the Highlord. Increase strength by X and heal yourself for a % of your health. For the next 10 seconds you deal %AP damage as holy damage to your primary target and up to 5 near by enemies.
-Divine Tempest: When you use Divine Storm you can cast a second one immediately after for Free and it deals 100% increased damage with 100% additional radius.

NOTE: This is taking from what everyone is saying. Equality sucks, the concept is good but I don't know how they can reasonably fix it. Either its going to be super broken or super nerfed there is no middle ground imo. Looking at this Judgment Strike concept that would be the big key into fixing the rotation and fantasy i'd imagine. And as @Krekko said, I agree 100%. I love this spec, i have been playing Retribution since vanilla and its like seeing this, seeing the builds it hurts man. I don't have an alpha but playing as long as I have you get the grasp of when something is wrong.

In regard to Judgment being a buff, if that is TOO op and has to remain a debuff then so be it. But like Aeluron in here and others we all can say it needs to be a buff.
@Solscra I had no idea about that Judgment Strike until you brought it up. Even with the build as is that would fix a ton of problems but because of how good it inherently is to smoothing things out it has to be baseline imo unless I am totally wrong.

Honestly looking a lot better the more you refine it.

Personally I really like the Hammer of Wrath as a talent that replaces Judgment. In general, I'm really thinking that Judgment should probably only work on Templar's Verdict/Justicar's Vengeance and just have Mastery increase the damage of Divine Storm at all times. There'd be no need for Greater Judgment to apply the debuff to multiple targets because Divine Storm simply wouldn't care about that mechanic (and it would make switching to AE a LOT easier that way).

Judgment providing us with a self buff is also a fine alternative. In a way, I think that buff, for legacy reasons, should be called...

Seal of Justice. =)

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think the unreliable and useless came from our attacks don't do as good damage compared to our finisher. As I said our generators should be strong, our Finishers should be X% higher then them. I'd say 50% but that's me.

[Deleted]

I mean, i could just as easily argue that Holy Power = Combo Points, therefore we're already similar to rogues. I don't think that is something that will go away, nor does it need too. I think people here are placing over-emphasis on how 'weak' our damage is outside of Judgment. It's really not that bad.

The whole 'wahhhh' we don't do as much DPS as everyone else, is a waste of air, tuning hasn't happened yet. Trying to facilitate an argument off of what we have now for numbers is pretty silly.

I would say in terms of design is is more in line with Burning Embers than CP of rogues , since TV and CB have now the same role.
The other thing is that in order for us to be balanced there have to be two nearly entirely differently balanced number templates in order to make ret in PvE not weak as hell or in PvP as fuck since our base numbers are already rather high and still , despite this we are dealing at times only about half of the dps of many others as it currently stands.
Yet despite being so much lackluster in PvE our dmg in PvP is rather good - but if it would be buffed to accomodate PvE that would us there completly OP.
Besides this there are some things i would also say are a thing that are lowering our dps right now . like our somewhat slow-ish and inflexible playstyle and design that makes it hard for us to do both ae and st in the same fight since we have to skill into it to have spammable skills for the first one - which are coming at the cost of ST skills.
While this can be circumvented by simply increasing the numbers , it still can be a problem tough.

As for your suggestion of Judgement strike. Couldn't this be made into a charge based system? Where we are starting with one strike from the get go and they are refilled by a procc and can be capped up to 3 with the cd only counting towards the first inital hit to avoide it suffering from the lack of proccs.

[Ulthane]

Honestly looking a lot better the more you refine it.

Personally I really like the Hammer of Wrath as a talent that replaces Judgment. In general, I'm really thinking that Judgment should probably only work on Templar's Verdict/Justicar's Vengeance and just have Mastery increase the damage of Divine Storm at all times. There'd be no need for Greater Judgment to apply the debuff to multiple targets because Divine Storm simply wouldn't care about that mechanic (and it would make switching to AE a LOT easier that way).

Judgment providing us with a self buff is also a fine alternative. In a way, I think that buff, for legacy reasons, should be called...

Seal of Justice. =)

That is a way of putting it. Because quite frankly the biggest issue I see in regard to Judgment being a debuff vs buff is in fact Divine Storm. But having a mastery revolve around Divine Storm would in fact be weird, would it mean that Divine Storm would have to be the finisher at all times and that Templar's Verdict would have to vanish? Back in Wrath Divine Storm was indeed our hard hitting move but now it got separated so not sure about that. Not sure how a mastery involving Divine Storm would work unless Divine Storm was buffed along side Judgment in the mastery? Perhaps it could create a rotation with the Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm?

And thank you, the point is that the way Retribution looks and is right now is that something has to be done with it. Either keep it bland and not make sense and then you have to buff damage to ungodly amounts.

Or tune abilities and create proper filler.

- - - Updated - - -

The only problem i have with this spell is wether or not it is an addition or a replacement to crusader strike. Because of these two things, how will this work with haste because judgement's cooldown and can theoretically be low enough to where such a talent becomes dead in the water past X amount of haste, and because of how stats work, this talent could very well be unused for a majority of the expansion.

I would hope and assume it would be it's own ability and not a talent. In fact an idea around this is perhaps now thinking about it the Divine Judgment mastery can also lower the CD of this ability or the CD reduction it provides to Judgment as well?

- - - Updated - - -

I think the unreliable and useless came from our attacks don't do as good damage compared to our finisher. As I said our generators should be strong, our Finishers should be X% higher then them. I'd say 50% but that's me.

More or less the flow of combat and how it feels.