[LEGION] Mistweaving Discussion

[GasaiYuno951]

in tonight's stream Lore says Mistweaver monks are the best healer by far in legion

[Supliftz]

in tonight's stream Lore says Mistweaver monks are the best healer by far in legion

do you have a vod of this I want to feel alive with memes again please

[xdmemes]

in tonight's stream Lore says Mistweaver monks are the best healer by far in legion

..lol dkm pls

[Rife]

This post is implying monk has always been given bandaids, and is implying monk was the only class given a bandaid in t18. I think the biggest thing that tilts me here is this post comes from a guy who said monk lacked utility in WoD

I meant that 4pce T18 is probably the biggest bandaid any healing class has ever gotten. I figure part of the reason MW is getting a redesign for Legion is because the current iteration of the spec is being propped up so heavily by a set bonus and huge spirit levels on gear late in the expac. Two things that are going to be gone for Legion, thus the issues that these bandaids fixed have to be properly addressed.

I didn't mean MW lacks utility in WoD. I specifically listed the utility we bring to a raid. It's just all going soon. Then what? Are MW'ers going to get a raid spot based on their throughput alone? Is it that high comparative to other healers at the moment in alpha?

[GasaiYuno951]

do you have a vod of this I want to feel alive with memes again please

https://www.twitch.tv/devolore/v/59882921

56 mins 46 sec in

"Have you played Legion? Because Mistweaver Monks are the best healer right now, by a lot."

[Supliftz]

I meant that 4pce T18 is probably the biggest bandaid any healing class has ever gotten. I figure part of the reason MW is getting a redesign for Legion is because the current iteration of the spec is being propped up so heavily by a set bonus and huge spirit levels on gear late in the expac. Two things that are going to be gone for Legion, thus the issues that these bandaids fixed have to be properly addressed.

Just like t18 4pc was probably the biggest bandaid druid got? Or leech trinket for any throughput healer class?

[Rife]

"Have you played Legion? Because Mistweaver Monks are the best healer right now, by a lot."

What addon are all the streamers using in CM testing to make their 5 man healer show up with an orange health bar instead of teal?

[Supliftz]

https://www.twitch.tv/devolore/v/59882921

56 mins 46 sec in

"Have you played Legion? Because Mistweaver Monks are the best healer right now, by a lot."

m e m e s b o y z

[Floopa]

https://www.twitch.tv/devolore/v/59882921

56 mins 46 sec in

"Have you played Legion? Because Mistweaver Monks are the best healer right now, by a lot."

what a time to be alive lmao

[xdmemes]

https://www.twitch.tv/devolore/v/59882921

56 mins 46 sec in

"Have you played Legion? Because Mistweaver Monks are the best healer right now, by a lot."

It's pretty evident that community managers are out of touch with the reality of the game for the most part.

"I am NOT directly involved in development (ie: I can't buff your class), but I do communicate with the developers regularly."

[Myta]

Just like t18 4pc was probably the biggest bandaid druid got? Or leech trinket for any throughput healer class?

Leech Trinket isn't a bandaid, because to a greater or lesser extent every healer can benefit. I'm not sure what analogy you were using but going from BRF > HFC MW was unviable without 4pc, and even with 4pc which is one of the strongest 4pc bonuses ever given to a healer, MW were still not close to the god comp in terms of heals (And this shows you that even with how insanely strong 4pc is, it was still not enough to edge out Hpal/Disc/Rsham which shows you how badly we suffered compared to those classes in toolkit and throughput by the end of BRF espec. after the Revival nerf.). And I have to clarify because I know I'll be misconstrued, MW were still viable, but no one is talking about viability they are talking about being a broken class that requires bandaids just in order to function on a competitive level and have a raid slot.

Uplift while unique requires so much throughput just because of it's random nature to work anywhere as well.

I guarantee that the reason someone like Lore (probably echoed by most of Blizz) saying MW is the strongest healer is solely due to representation, which in an alpha where MW was the only healer available for a long time is incredibly skewed out. My prediction for Beta when the reset comes we will see who's truly being represented in Mythic+/HM raid testing metas and I guarantee that it won't be MW to the degree it has been because mechanically the other healers are much better designed.

And the reason why Monks are so underplayed on live is not because of numbers, numbers can be tweaked, it's because of the haphazard design of all of our specs that lead to gimmick mechanics that penudulum swing between overpowered and underpowered constantly. Blizz has fixed a lot of our spells to be more controllable but now Blizz refuses to give MW the tools to even the playing field between it and other healers which is the main choice made by raid leaders when choosing their healing roster.

[Supliftz]

Leech Trinket isn't a bandaid, because to a greater or lesser extent every healer can benefit. I'm not sure what analogy you were using but going from BRF > HFC MW was unviable without 4pc, and even with 4pc which is one of the strongest 4pc bonuses ever given to a healer, MW were still not close to the god comp in terms of heals (And this shows you that even with how insanely strong 4pc is, it was still not enough to edge out Hpal/Disc/Rsham which shows you how badly we suffered compared to those classes in toolkit and throughput by the end of BRF espec. after the Revival nerf.). And I have to clarify because I know I'll be misconstrued, MW were still viable, but no one is talking about viability they are talking about being a broken class that requires bandaids just in order to function on a competitive level and have a raid slot.

Leech trinket is a "bandaid" to every throughput healer class besides Rshaman. Leech Trinket was extremely underwhelming for resto shaman (due to most of their output not proccing the trinket, on top of not being able to blanket the raid as well as druid/monk/hpriest). The trinket on top of set bonuses for monk/druid effectively made both classes kings of HPS this tier.

I also really hate these points about "x class is unviable w/o tier". The reality is holy paladins would be unviable without class trinket (this shows because holy paladins didn't actually have utility this tier outside of archimonde), and resto druids would be unviable w/o t18 4pc. Every class in the game is balanced around the gear that exists, which is why monk/druid/paladin/shaman/holy priest all suck dick w/o the current gear.

- - - Updated - - -

And the reason why Monks are so underplayed on live is not because of numbers, numbers can be tweaked, it's because of the haphazard design of all of our specs that lead to gimmick mechanics that penudulum swing between overpowered and underpowered constantly. Blizz has fixed a lot of our spells to be more controllable but now Blizz refuses to give MW the tools to even the playing field between it and other healers which is the main choice made by raid leaders when choosing their healing roster.

Myta, I want to explain something to you personally. You live in a very weird world where you think monk has these "wild swings" between being overpowered and underpowered. The reality is since mistweaver has existed, it's been an extremely good class and brought to world first progression in every tier of content. The only tier where this wasn't the case was 25 man Siege of Org. So when you say these things which are objectively false, I think you're making up a narrative about the class to try and seem smart or w/e.

I can see how you make up a narrative like this. Most mistweavers who post here actually believed monk lacked utility in wod, and were underpowered this expansion.

P.S revival nerfs are you fucking srs mate

[Rife]

Every class in the game is balanced around the gear that exists, which is why monk/druid/paladin/shaman/holy priest all suck dick w/o the current gear.

To be fair RDruid without 4pce T18 might be lacking 10-15% of their throughput. Paladins might be losing 15-20% and a bunch of overhealing. MW without 4pce suddenly loses the ability to spot heal effectively and loses 35% or more of their throughput. It's not a fair comparison to make between other healers when RDruids and Paladins without 4pce or particular trinkets in CM's or PvP are perfectly viable and competitive while MW'ers are simply... not.

You live in a very weird world where you think monk has these "wild swings" between being overpowered and underpowered. The reality is since mistweaver has existed, it's been an extremely good class and brought to world first progression in every tier of content.

The enormous caveat here is the specific gear required for this statement to be true. MW does have wild swings between being OP and UP; gear. Play a MW at 630 in heroics or CMs or 670 in HM or at 740 in PvP and see how mana management feels. Go heal a heroic or PvP without Extend Life and HFC trinkets and see how it feels. Go apply to a guild without 4pce and see how your trail goes.

Compare the PvP mana management of MW to any other healer and it's clear why MW is only viable in 3's with sub 2 minute win/loss comps and practically non-viable in 2's. Compare healing CM's with a MW to RDruid/Rsham/Hpal and it's clear that MW is underpowered to an almost laughable extent.

So yea, while MW at 740 fully geared in Upper Mythic HFC is competitive, and in the right hands could be considered OP, at any other gear level in any other environment they're utter dogshit.

[MrCool]

I like how Legion MW is turning out wrt. class design and mechanics and PVP talents introduced in the latest builds (Ancient MW Arts, and Way of the Crane) make it even better. Oh, and I love that all WoD garbage has been thrown out of the window, most notably: clunky crane stance, Detonate Chi, Chi Explosion, ToD gimmick and pathetically useless ReM/uplift combo [outside of raids].

Is that a big deal that Revival or whatever spell gets nerfed by X%? There's plenty of time to patch numbers and ensure balance between healers (I do make the assumption that utility is included in balance budget).

During WoD beta, if I recall correctly, the situation was somewhat reversed: the class design was pure garbage (and locked down, no changes allowed!) but number tuning was decent enough to make the class "playable" (but not fun). Relax, there's time to finetune healers' balance, and it's much easier to fix than a bad class design.

[Supliftz]

To be fair RDruid without 4pce T18 might be lacking 10-15% of their throughput. Paladins might be losing 15-20% and a bunch of overhealing. MW without 4pce suddenly loses the ability to spot heal effectively and loses 35% or more of their throughput. It's not a fair comparison to make between other healers when RDruids and Paladins without 4pce or particular trinkets in CM's or PvP are perfectly viable and competitive while MW'ers are simply... not.

There is no "to be fair", resto druids and holy paladins simply would not be viable without those set bonuses. Resto druid w/o 4pc is basically on the same level as holy priest, and we've seen how terrible holy priests are in t18.

- - - Updated - - -

The enormous caveat here is the specific gear required for this statement to be true. MW does have wild swings between being OP and UP; gear. Play a MW at 630 in heroics or CMs or 670 in HM or at 740 in PvP and see how mana management feels. Go heal a heroic or PvP without Extend Life and HFC trinkets and see how it feels. Go apply to a guild without 4pce and see how your trail goes.

You can say the same thing about every healer spec lol. Try playing hpal with and without class trinket and demonic phylactary, and try applying to guilds w/o those things and see how it goes.

- - - Updated - - -

Compare the PvP mana management of MW to any other healer and it's clear why MW is only viable in 3's with sub 2 minute win/loss comps and practically non-viable in 2's. Compare healing CM's with a MW to RDruid/Rsham/Hpal and it's clear that MW is underpowered to an almost laughable extent.

PvP is pretty irrelevant to the argument of PvE balancing.

All healers are underpowered in CMs. Mistweaver can easily complete 8/8 so I don't see the issues. The expansion didn't actively encourage you to do 5 mans, so a class being shit in a 5 man isn't a problem really. People that have major problems with healing small groups are simply not good at the game. That is a legit concern with an expansion focused on 5 man content, but blizzard already fixed that problem. EnM + Mastery are broken enough to carry even the biggest noob through heroic content.

- - - Updated - - -

So yea, while MW at 740 fully geared in Upper Mythic HFC is competitive, and in the right hands could be considered OP, at any other gear level in any other environment they're utter dogshit.

See now we figured out the real issue. Mistweaver isn't dogshit, the problem is people are bad at the class.

That's always been the real issue with mistweaver lol.

[Rife]

So the only problem with Mistweavers currently is that almost all players are shit at playing them?

Why bother balancing PvE or worrying about CM or PvP balance when we can just tell people to "get good, kid".

[Deleted]

What's the point discussing if a class is viable or not without T18 gear when it's actually available to anyone and we're moving on to a new xpac next patch ?

[Supliftz]

So the only problem with Mistweavers currently is that almost all players are shit at playing them?

Why bother balancing PvE or worrying about CM or PvP balance when we can just tell people to "get good, kid".

The class does have issues (such 3-4 target healing). I'm just saying a lot of the issues people are creating comes down to "get gud". If could do heroic dungeons at 600 ilvl before enveloping/life cocoon buffs, anyone can do it at 610 + ilvl post buffs.

Like I said though, the class is far too difficult for the average player. That's why it needed to be reworked.

[Deleted]

I've only tdone 4or5 instances on alpha but have to say I enjoyed it. Thunder focus tea felt as if it was the crux to the spec allowing for some variation in play style dependant on dmg patterns. Revival felt way under tuned but plenty of time to change. Tbh I was ready to hang up my tea kettle and go roll something new but I think I might actually stick with it.

You can argue the toss about the academia behind the spec but the proof is in the pudding and it tastes gooood.

[GasaiYuno951]

I've only tdone 4or5 instances on alpha but have to say I enjoyed it. Thunder focus tea felt as if it was the crux to the spec allowing for some variation in play style dependant on dmg patterns. Revival felt way under tuned but plenty of time to change. Tbh I was ready to hang up my tea kettle and go roll something new but I think I might actually stick with it.

You can argue the toss about the academia behind the spec but the proof is in the pudding and it tastes gooood.

except we wnt from raid healers with blanket heals to subpar paladin status . id rather bring the paladin then us