The Supremes voted 8-0 to to shift representation to those with most "undocumented"

[Xisa]

Excluding that little 'three fifths of other persons' clause, sure.

Are you trying to justify Non-citizens impacting elections because slavery existed 160 years ago?

[jimboa24]

I thought civil revolt against unjust government programs was a proud American tradition.

We had a little thing called the Civil War, when "civil revolt" was practiced on a mass scale. We don't take too kindly to "civil revolt" since then.

[Kellhound]

I doubt this thought enters the heads of even an appreciable minority of undocumented migrants.



No, my definition of working is making the southern border significantly more permeable for migrant workers and putting people who have demonstrated good behaviour during the terms of their work visa being fast tracked for permanent residence with their families.

The principle reason why people jump the border then -stay- is because repeat crossings are so hazardous.



It is. The main 'crime' you lot are ratting on about is improper entry, as was said. Being here without documentation is in of itself not a crime.

Thats kind of like saying its illegal to murder, but not illegal to be a murderer.

[Xisa]

There aren't. Americans do not want the sort of work that is done by migrants.

That's not true either. They just don't want to do it for $4 an hour.

[jimboa24]

I thought civil revolt against unjust government programs was a proud American tradition.

- - - Updated - - -



Yep, because the extant evidence really doesn't demonstrate that the framers were not in fact racists.

The reasoning for the three-fifths compromise was not racism, and all the word-twisting in the world won't make it so, as much as you might want it to.

[Elegiac]

That's not true either. They just don't want to do it for $4 an hour.

It's not just the wage level - the jobs themselves are physically unpleasant and also do not provide reliable income in the fashion most American workers want.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you trying to justify Non-citizens impacting elections because slavery existed 160 years ago?

No, I'm justifying noncitizens constituting persons for the basis of electoral redistricting because a) it is a longstanding legal precedent that works and b) said individuals pay taxes and contribute to society and thus should be counted.

[Xisa]

It's not just the wage level - the jobs themselves are physically unpleasant and also do not provide reliable income in the fashion most American workers want.

I'll assume you grew up in the areas this work is being done, and have a first-hand knowledge of the reasons why the jobs flow and migrate the way they do, correct?

[Elegiac]

The reasoning for the three-fifths compromise was not racism

Of course it wasn't. But none of those involved were not racist in any sense.

[Kellhound]

Considering it's a net benefit to society and pretty much everyone involved, no.



Or we could just give said jobs to the people willing to work them because it gives them a significantly improved quality of life.

- - - Updated - - -



Not with the shoddy state of the current visa program, no. The US is cherrypicking its legal migrants and imposes ridiculous levels of user cost even for short term stays.

They have some benefits and some costs. Eliminate the need for them and the benefits generally stay and the costs go away.

I really dont care about their quality of life, just mine. Replacing low wage farm labor with technology would likely increase my quality of life.

Nothing wrong with just wanting a specific type of emigrant.

[Xisa]

It's not just the wage level - the jobs themselves are physically unpleasant and also do not provide reliable income in the fashion most American workers want.

No, I'm justifying noncitizens constituting persons for the basis of electoral redistricting because a) it is a longstanding legal precedent that works and b) said individuals pay taxes and contribute to society and thus should be counted.

Visa workers? Sure, count em. Green cards? Count 'em.

Illegals? No, that's inane.

[Elegiac]

I'll assume you grew up in the areas this work is being done, and have a first-hand knowledge of the reasons why the jobs flow and migrate the way they do, correct?

Oh, because 'first hand knowledge' is totally necessary to understand why a workforce used to regular full time labor in fairly good conditions might be reticent for seasonal work picking strawberries in ninety degree heat for low wages?

- - - Updated - - -

They have some benefits and some costs. Eliminate the need for them and the benefits generally stay and the costs go away.

Elaborate on how 'the benefits' stay when their principle benefit in the form of market consumption is no longer present.

I really dont care about their quality of life, just mine.

Precisely why your opinions on public policy are about as valuable as the wages said immigrants earn.

[Xisa]

Oh, because 'first hand knowledge' is totally necessary to understand why a workforce used to regular full time labor in fairly good conditions might be reticent for seasonal work picking strawberries in ninety degree heat for low wages?

Is it cliche to quote Game of Thrones for this?

That fact that you assume it's the work instead of the pay...I've got nothing for you. Literally every single thing in that sentence you wrote is wrong, with the exception of the low pay. Your idea of low pay and the farmer's ideas, however, have a lot of distance between them.

[Kellhound]

Oh, because 'first hand knowledge' is totally necessary to understand why a workforce used to regular full time labor in fairly good conditions might be reticent for seasonal work picking strawberries in ninety degree heat for low wages?

- - - Updated - - -



Elaborate on how 'the benefits' stay when their principle benefit in the form of market consumption is no longer present.



Precisely why your opinions on public policy are about as valuable as the wages said immigrants earn.

They are no longer there sending money out of the country for one. The technology is also a better form of market consumption generation.

That;s why your opinion of my opinion is such. Just because you do not like it does not mean it has no value. After all, I have the same vote you do.

[Elegiac]

Is it cliche to quote Game of Thrones for this?

That fact that you assume it's the work instead of the pay...I've got nothing for you. Literally every single thing in that sentence you wrote is wrong, with the exception of the low pay. Your idea of low pay and the farmer's ideas, however, have a lot of distance between them.

Pay is not the only factor involved when it comes to employment trends, I'm not sure why this is even in question. Unless you are willing to raise the wage to such high levels that it is not even remotely proportionate to the actual value of the profession, in which case it will automate anyway.

[Xisa]

They are no longer there sending money out of the country for one. The technology is also a better form of market consumption generation.

That;s why your opinion of my opinion is such. Just because you do not like it does not mean it has no value. After all, I have the same vote you do.

I don't disagree with some of what you said, but it is a bit...silly to insinuate all opinions are equal.

- - - Updated - - -

Pay is not the only factor involved when it comes to employment trends, I'm not sure why this is even in question. Unless you are willing to raise the wage to such high levels that it is not even remotely proportionate to the actual value of the profession, in which case it will automate anyway.

Let me ask you, have you ever been to the parts of the country where this is going on?

[Elegiac]

They are no longer there sending money out of the country for one.

Please. Trillions of dollars leave the country in the form of offshore holdings and you're complaining about the few dollars a week that ostensibly head south of the border?

The technology is also a better form of market consumption generation.

This isn't how demand works at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Let me ask you, have you ever been to the parts of the country where this is going on?

Let me ask you why the hell anecdotal experience is necessary to understand market trends.

[PosPosPos]

That fact that you assume it's the work instead of the pay...I've got nothing for you.

The fact that you assume he cannot and must not be talking about both at once...I've got nothing for you either.

Literally every single thing in that sentence you wrote is wrong, with the exception of the low pay. Your idea of low pay and the farmer's ideas, however, have a lot of distance between them.

Right, so you need to be murdered or to murder to know the horrors of murdering people. Riiiightttt?

"Oh I know, I need to experience an atomic bomb myself, first-hand, in order to understand the implications of using one"

[Kellhound]

Please. Trillions of dollars leave the country in the form of offshore holdings and you're complaining about the few dollars a week that ostensibly head south of the border?



This isn't how demand works at all.

- - - Updated - - -



Let me ask you why the hell anecdotal experience is necessary to understand market trends.

You seem to think I do not object to the corporate offshoring of money, how typical.

Demand requires ability to obtain. 10 people who cannot buy a new truck equals far less demand than 1 person who can. I would much rather have the one person who can.

[PosPosPos]

You seem to think I do not object to the corporate offshoring of money, how typical.

No, but that we know you are ignoring the forest fire for a tiny, baby tree, how typical.

[Kellhound]

No, but that we know you are ignoring the forest fire for a tiny, baby tree, how typical.

Hard to say I am ignoring it when it is not properly part of the discussion. But hey, I know you love to jump to unsupported conclusions about me.