Blizzard; Can you built some alternative NINJA LOOT protection into the game PLZ?

[LairenyX]

Just animate the personal loot like a slot machine. You see gold, gold, gold, item, gold, gold, item, gold.... Then you see them spin and when it stops at the item you get excited and happy. If it stops at gold you lost.


That would not change the loot system, just show it in a more exciting way.

Edit: I made a mockup of the concept in Photoshop:

The icons would spin like a slot machine wheel.
They could add "extra roll" and "universal raid item token" icons and stuff like that.
There are many ways to make personal loot more exciting.

Well, I think the goal is to maximize the loot experience, or make loot as exciting as possible. There are three ways to experience loot in this context. Personal Loot LIVE, Personal Loot SLOT MACHINE, ML with window full of loot + rolling.

If we were to assign a score to these three options and then pick a loot option to go forward with base on which options has the highest score from 0-100, I'd say Personal Loot LIVE gets 0 points. Personal Loot SLOT MACHINE sounds like it could be a better option or alternative or modified Personal Loot LIVE and has a higher score so if we were to pick between Personal Loot SLOT MACHINE or Personal Loot LIVE, PLSM gets picked automatically because it's more exciting compare to PLL. However, how does PLSM compare to the ML of full loot window + the rolling experience?

I think the ML of full loot window + the rolling experience is a much more exciting loot experience compared to the PLSM, despite PLSM being better than PLL. The ML window full of loot + rolling just connects better with players IMO. For an example, if we killed a boss in an epic castle, and the dead boss leave behind a corpse that's glimmering, sparkly, and has a flashlight animation pointing out of it. You ask yourself, hey, what's making the glimmering and sparkly animation? hey what's making the golden flashlight animation? WHAT EXCITING TREASUSRES could POSSIBLY be giving off these eyes melting glows and shinny? well, you right click, kneel down, loot, and a window pops open up with 4 pieces of loot. 4 pieces of epics or high quality blues. Clearly, 3 of the pieces are causing the regular glimmering and sparking animation on LIVE; Meanwhile, the 4th piece of loot is causing the golden flashlight animation shooting up in the air. See? this is just a much more exciting loot experience filled with treasures, eye melts, valuables, and stuff that makes you drool compared to the slot machine. Seeing the glimmering and flash light at the same time and then see the loot in the window that you feel caused these glimmering and flashlight just connect with the players WAY WAY better. Then you roll afterward. The rolling part is life at the edge man. You're on the edge of your seat, your tables, oh man so much hype and tension. Or have fun seeing other people do it if nothing dropped for you. AMAZING loot experience that'll keep u subbed. Yah.

So if I was to assign scores to these three options:

PLL = 0
PLSM = 5.5
ML = 9.5

So clearly, if we were to go forward. We'd have to pick ML instead of PLSM or PLL. IMO.

I agree with the second half of the suggestion but not the first. Personal Loot isn't really about protection from Ninja Looting for me, it is for a specific chance for loot. Your suggestion with Master Looter instead of Personal Loot doesn't protect me as a Player from not getting loot if there are tons of other people in the same raid that needs the same piece of gear. Basically Personal Loot removes the competition for loot.

For the second part, the suggestion for adding the rules for looting is a very good way to help against Ninja Looters. I actually didn't even think of it, but it will prevent so much or help the players that are victimized for it. Now we have so they have to literally state the rules in chat for the Game Masters to even help you with it. If they add the rules to the premade listing (with someway of preventing the change of the rules unless a 100% majority vote from current party/raid members, with no pending invites). Otherwise it is under the same situation as changing Group Loot to Master Looter before the loot appears, as with how it was before when you could change it in combat. Though this wouldn't prevent people that are LFG'ing in chat to still "cheat" players so you will still need to ask for rules from that way.

I VERY LIKE this idea...the concept of the entire group voting. I think this would work VERY VERY WELL in the age of the public Group Finder 2016. So Blizzard should add in the "Loot Rule Tab" into the party tab or something or elsewhere, maybe in similar to the way I described with all the information available so players can make the MOST INFORMED DECISIONS possible. Then once the group is at full, the "Loot Rule Tab" will pop up for all to vote, automatically. Once all voted, then it will automatically be locked in. People can vote for 1+2, 1+3, 1 only, 2 only, 3 only etc. So the public puggers in the GF get a direct say on what loot rule they want for each bite-size group runs. In the age of guilds dominance, 1+3 was probably good by default. However, now we're in the age of the GF dominance, and this vote system, along with possibly 1+2, should be available to be picked because it makes more sense for this new time landscape kind of a thing.

This is a very good idea IMO.

[Mumba]

Giving power to the players is always the worst option.

[LairenyX]

I also think there should be a new interface added in, similar to the suggested "Loot Rule Tab", that is also attached to the party tab, maybe, that gives you a quick summary of what spec people were in as the boss go down or while fighting the boss. This will help everyone narrow down fast who's who at the loot roll. So if a healer roll on a 2-hand sword, people can open up the "Spec Tab", see that so and so was a healer during the fight, then complain about it. If nothing is resolved then they can go to the GM.

[Eleccybubb]

I also think there should be a new interface added in, similar to the suggested "Loot Rule Tab", that is also attached to the party tab, maybe, that gives you a quick summary of what spec people were in as the boss go down or while fighting the boss. This will help everyone narrow down fast who's who at the loot roll. So if a healer roll on a 2-hand sword, people can open up the "Spec Tab", see that so and so was a healer during the fight, then complain about it. If nothing is resolved then they can go to the GM.

Again no. Your idea of giving power to the players is not smart in any way. Master loot serves it's purpose well in that raid groups that trust each other use it and people can use it to reserve items if needed which the solution is make their own group. Personal Loot solves your issue of ninja looting and if you have bad RNG that is how it is. Also "loot experience" is not what is keeping people from cancelling their sub as there are many other major issues that they feel came with WoD.

[LairenyX]

Okay...well, I thought of some more stuff while I was away that I am now going to add. The "Spec Tab" should have two features, one is a snap shot of the "past" when each boss died and what spec each person was in as each boss went down while the second is a "live" version of the party composition. This live version would tell you WHO has the enchanting profession and WHICH loot they looted or was assigned by the master looter under their name or something. There needs to be a second binding feature added into the game. The first one, on LIVE, is called "Soul bind" for when you pick up a piece of BoP from the boss. The second binding feature should be called "Deeper Bind" or "Deeper Soul bind" that happens when you EQUIP the item. The "live" version of the "Spec Tab" will tell you WHO has the enchanting profession and if the loot each person looted or got from assignment is just regular "Soul bind" or "Deeper Soul bind". I want this for the following reason, I am worried that, say, an Elemental Shaman, who has the enchanting profession and also probably a female Draenei, who is Elemental as main spec for the whole expansion and has no interested in being the Resto off-spec or any off-spec period claiming that he or she want a piece of loot for off-spec, lying. After the raid, he or she then disenchant the epic loot for the mat and keeps it all to his or herself or sell on the AH. What should have happened instead is that the piece should have been DE and then at the end "Highest Roller Wins the Loot" get the enchanting mat. This "live" tab in the "Spec Tab" will let someone look at the Elemental Shaman, see that she has enchanting, and see if the Resto Gear or Enhancement Gear she got was "Deeper Soul Bind" or just regular "Soul binded". "Deeper Soul bind" will stop a piece of equipment from being disenchantable and reduce it's vendor sell value by 80% or maybe 100% really. So if no one rolls for "Cuurent Spec", and the ML call for OS roll, that piece better be rolled for honesty or, if not, gets DE and the group roll for the mat. SO I want to look at the Elemental Shaman, see that she or he got enchanting, and see the OS piece she got is in the "Soul Bind" state or the "Deeper Soul Bind" state, i.e she lied so I can complain to get her remove or move to the GM afterward. I want to DEMAND that people equip the OS piece they got after they get it IF they also got enchanting to prove it and not trying to scam the group out of some hard earned DE mats.

So it should be:

[Boss1][Boss2][Boss3][Boss4][Boss5] I [Live]

[Seranthor]

*snip*

I appreciate your passion for what you believe, and what you think you are trying to solve... Thing is you are trying to drive from New York to Boston via Los Angeles. There IS already a solution, one you dont like, but it IS the solution. If you are so bloody untrusting of who you are grouped/raiding with then use Personal Loot. Period.

[Nevcairiel]

you NEED TO remove Personal Loot and just have Master Loot only.

You are free to have your opinion and preferences, and if you prefer ML looting thats your choice, but trying to force them onto every single other player ever is not something you get to demand. Sorry, you lose.

I doubt anyone would object to getting a small tab where you can specify loot rules more clearly, what I would object to is being forced to do this shit because one random person didn't like Personal Loot. You are free to enjoy whichever aspect of the game you want, just don't presume every other player feels the same way.

Your further ideas about DE are just batshit though. Get over it already. Blizzard shouldn't develop complicated game features for every single social problem. Find friends to play with if you're worried about missing out on a single DE mat.

[LairenyX]

You are free to have your opinion and preferences, and if you prefer ML looting thats your choice, but trying to force them onto every single other player ever is not something you get to demand. Sorry, you lose.

I doubt anyone would object to getting a small tab where you can specify loot rules more clearly, what I would object to is being forced to do this shit because one random person didn't like Personal Loot. You are free to enjoy whichever aspect of the game you want, just don't presume every other player feels the same way.

Your further ideas about DE are just batshit though. Get over it already. Blizzard shouldn't develop complicated game features for every single social problem. Find friends to play with if you're worried about missing out on a single DE mat.

You don't understand. Your talk of players being forced to do this and that, i.e player should have a choice of PL or ML, is irrelevant because PL is dangerous and needs to be completely removed from the game. It is dangerous. I am interested in player experiencing ONLY the ML because it is the maximum loot experience, I'm talking more general players and not the lesser-in-number-players.

I get that you don't want to be forced onto ML and want to have the option of picking PL, but this is no good because PL is dangerous. "Don't Presume Every Other Players Feel the Same Way"? Do every other players know that PL is dangerous, and they're just experiencing it without knowing it's dangerous but still get harmed by it anyways? since group might be biased towards PL due to the convenient of no roll and no loot assignment? and then people just experience empty windows 90% of the time or an underwhelming 1 piece 10% of the other time?

The DE is good because it is fair and ensure the loot experience is at maximum. This is what makes people want to tell their friends about the game.

If we assume PL is auto removed because it is dangerous, the only discussion left would be your preference to want to be able to do off-spec rolls, i.e 1+3, but this has the baggage of 4 friends rolling Ninja Looting. If you want to do off-spec roll then roll with your guild, or a group of all closest friends. If you want to go into the Group Finder and do off-spec rolls then you contrast directly against me and MY FEAR of being ninja by 4 friends rolling. If I am diving into the Group Finder, I want to have the choice to pick 1+2 so I do not have to fear 4 friends rolling and Ninja Looting me.

If you say I should just pick the group in the Group Finder who has the 1+2 rule and let some have the option to create groups with 1+3 without any mandatory votes, then it gets into this situation where a majority of groups do not state the loot rule in the title, they just have the advertised name of the run, and as well as there being no "established standard of loot rules". When you join any group and ask for loot rule, they will just say "MS>OS", and this means absolutely nothing, and then if you attempt to ask further for clarification, it makes things awkward, feeling like things are made hassle and complicated, it's just silence, you might get kicked, and it's just inefficient and unpractical to ask every time and dread these outcomes and with so much uncertainty if it's just silence, maybe the leader is just trying to add people and not paying attention to chat? who knows. So it's just:

1) Open Group Finder
2) See title of group advertisement without loot rules stated in title
3) Join
4) Ask for loot rule, get: "MS>OS"
5) Awkward and unpractical to ask for clarification as it'll just lead to silence, feeling like things are made harder, maybe kicking, or just uncertainty.

Any average players in the public pugs in the Group Finder will simply join, sit through a run, kill bosses, try to roll, without the hassle of asking and fear of confrontation. If they get ninja, it's whatever. If they get upset, they go on forums, who knows how many people actually go, if not they just experience something very unpleasant and who knows where that lead? they might just repeat the pugs of uncertainty despite being ninjaed cause they can get over it.

If we let you have the ability to do 1+3 then this uncertainty and impracticality and fear of confrontation is the only result. People join, kill boss, boss drop loot, then get ninja or not. It's a dice roll. If Blizzard want to let people do 1+3 in return for uncertainty for all in the age of the Group Finder, that's fine.

However, if they want to forego the people who want the ability to do 1+3 in the GF and opt for mandatory votes then this up the efficiency and certainty for all players, in this landscape of the 2016 Group Finder. You don't have to just sit through a raid and not knowing if you're going to get ninjaed at a certain point or not, everything is fair, and the loot experience is at maximum excitement. You have the confidence your hard work of sitting through a raid, many wipes, and boss kills will have an ensured end of fairness in loot roll and loot excitement I suppose?

Really, it comes down to the question: In the age of the Group Finder, does Blizzard want to let some people do 1+3 and give everyone else, millions, the uncertainty feeling that they might get ninjaed or forego some people who want to do 1+3, let everyone vote, up the efficiency, practicality, certainty, get rid of the fear of confrontation, and up the loot experience to maximum?

IMO I guess it just all comes down to picking one audience over the other I suppose, I think they should pick the "million audience" and put mandatory votes in and forego the "some 1+3 people" instead to serve the MOST people in this new age of the Group Finder in 2016.

-----
At this point, we already know it's going to be ML no matter what as PL is already assumed to be removed. So, the loot experience will still be higher than PL no matter which options is picked. One is just more certainty, more practical, more efficient, and I feel increase the loot experience by maximum for the most people, the other is still higher loot experience, serve people who want 1+3, but results in uncertainty for millions. It's win-win at this point no matter. One is unpleasant for people who want to do 1+3, the other is unpleasant for million of peoples. Just pick I suppose. I think one is still more win than the other.

God, this whole thing feel mad complicated. Bliz should just remove PL and that's it.

[Stormspark]

They already have put "ninja loot" protection into the game - it's called personal loot. If you don't want to use the tools Blizzard has provided, then you don't get to complain about it. Master looter is designed for guild groups that trust each other, and basically tells Blizzard that you want to use your own loot distribution method and don't want them involved. Blizzard is NOT going to change master looter.

They put personal loot in the game just for PUG's. Use it.

[tankbug]

Personal loot is fine. I don't think it's exciting to see red pieces of gear that I can't use, might as well spare me the trouble of scrolling the list to see if there something more in there. If they want to provide me a summary in the chat upon kill, that's fine.

[Deleted]

Perosnal Loot solves every ninja loot issue, that's why it was created, so obviously as no one likes to be ninja'd every lfg group will be using personal loot right? Nope. I just searched lfg for HFC HC and found 20 groups with not one of them running personal loot and this is pretty much the norm from my experience. What Blizzard needs to do is put in more incentives for pugs to use personal loot, I have no idea what those incentives could be but personal loot as it stands is just being ignored by a large part of the player base.

[Eleccybubb]

You don't understand. Your talk of players being forced to do this and that, i.e player should have a choice of PL or ML, is irrelevant because PL is dangerous and needs to be completely removed from the game. It is dangerous. I am interested in player experiencing ONLY the ML because it is the maximum loot experience, I'm talking more general players and not the lesser-in-number-players.

I get that you don't want to be forced onto ML and want to have the option of picking PL, but this is no good because PL is dangerous. "Don't Presume Every Other Players Feel the Same Way"? Do every other players know that PL is dangerous, and they're just experiencing it without knowing it's dangerous but still get harmed by it anyways? since group might be biased towards PL due to the convenient of no roll and no loot assignment? and then people just experience empty windows 90% of the time or an underwhelming 1 piece 10% of the other time?

The DE is good because it is fair and ensure the loot experience is at maximum. This is what makes people want to tell their friends about the game.

If we assume PL is auto removed because it is dangerous, the only discussion left would be your preference to want to be able to do off-spec rolls, i.e 1+3, but this has the baggage of 4 friends rolling Ninja Looting. If you want to do off-spec roll then roll with your guild, or a group of all closest friends. If you want to go into the Group Finder and do off-spec rolls then you contrast directly against me and MY FEAR of being ninja by 4 friends rolling. If I am diving into the Group Finder, I want to have the choice to pick 1+2 so I do not have to fear 4 friends rolling and Ninja Looting me.

If you say I should just pick the group in the Group Finder who has the 1+2 rule and let some have the option to create groups with 1+3 without any mandatory votes, then it gets into this situation where a majority of groups do not state the loot rule in the title, they just have the advertised name of the run, and as well as there being no "established standard of loot rules". When you join any group and ask for loot rule, they will just say "MS>OS", and this means absolutely nothing, and then if you attempt to ask further for clarification, it makes things awkward, feeling like things are made hassle and complicated, it's just silence, you might get kicked, and it's just inefficient and unpractical to ask every time and dread these outcomes and with so much uncertainty if it's just silence, maybe the leader is just trying to add people and not paying attention to chat? who knows. So it's just:

1) Open Group Finder
2) See title of group advertisement without loot rules stated in title
3) Join
4) Ask for loot rule, get: "MS>OS"
5) Awkward and unpractical to ask for clarification as it'll just lead to silence, feeling like things are made harder, maybe kicking, or just uncertainty.

Any average players in the public pugs in the Group Finder will simply join, sit through a run, kill bosses, try to roll, without the hassle of asking and fear of confrontation. If they get ninja, it's whatever. If they get upset, they go on forums, who knows how many people actually go, if not they just experience something very unpleasant and who knows where that lead? they might just repeat the pugs of uncertainty despite being ninjaed cause they can get over it.

If we let you have the ability to do 1+3 then this uncertainty and impracticality and fear of confrontation is the only result. People join, kill boss, boss drop loot, then get ninja or not. It's a dice roll. If Blizzard want to let people do 1+3 in return for uncertainty for all in the age of the Group Finder, that's fine.

However, if they want to forego the people who want the ability to do 1+3 in the GF and opt for mandatory votes then this up the efficiency and certainty for all players, in this landscape of the 2016 Group Finder. You don't have to just sit through a raid and not knowing if you're going to get ninjaed at a certain point or not, everything is fair, and the loot experience is at maximum excitement. You have the confidence your hard work of sitting through a raid, many wipes, and boss kills will have an ensured end of fairness in loot roll and loot excitement I suppose?

Really, it comes down to the question: In the age of the Group Finder, does Blizzard want to let some people do 1+3 and give everyone else, millions, the uncertainty feeling that they might get ninjaed or forego some people who want to do 1+3, let everyone vote, up the efficiency, practicality, certainty, get rid of the fear of confrontation, and up the loot experience to maximum?

IMO I guess it just all comes down to picking one audience over the other I suppose, I think they should pick the "million audience" and put mandatory votes in and forego the "some 1+3 people" instead to serve the MOST people in this new age of the Group Finder in 2016.

-----
At this point, we already know it's going to be ML no matter what as PL is already assumed to be removed. So, the loot experience will still be higher than PL no matter which options is picked. One is just more certainty, more practical, more efficient, and I feel increase the loot experience by maximum for the most people, the other is still higher loot experience, serve people who want 1+3, but results in uncertainty for millions. It's win-win at this point no matter. One is unpleasant for people who want to do 1+3, the other is unpleasant for million of peoples. Just pick I suppose. I think one is still more win than the other.

God, this whole thing feel mad complicated. Bliz should just remove PL and that's it.

Again no. Personal Loot serves it's purpose for pugs and dungeons. Just because you don't like it does not mean it should be removed. And if you are so distrusting of your group as people have said then make your own damn group. Also the leaders I've seen usually put the loot rule in the description and if anything is reserved so I know if I want to join it or not.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Personal Loot already deals with this issue very effectively.

[LairenyX]

Again no. Personal Loot serves it's purpose for pugs and dungeons. Just because you don't like it does not mean it should be removed. And if you are so distrusting of your group as people have said then make your own damn group. Also the leaders I've seen usually put the loot rule in the description and if anything is reserved so I know if I want to join it or not.

Well, I have been Ninja Looted before in the Group Finder so there is certainly some element of distrust in there. However, this is mostly, I think, about uncertainty, fear, and dread of being Ninja Looted after all that hard work of sitting through a raid, dodging mechanics, performing roles, wiping, many wipes, and possibly some group drama in there to up the spice to finally find success and triumph of downing the boss, seeing the mind-blowing, eye-melting, and jaw-dropping loot drop in the loot window off of the boss's glimmering and flash-light dead body, just to end with being Ninja Looted.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmmm...I think calling this new loot voting system "Master Loot" still will only lead to miscommunication. In the Group Finder's public territory, it needs to be renamed or has a new name to signify a new mode of looting in this new territory. I think we should call it "Loot Assignment" or "Loot Pass-Out" mode, abbreviated to LA or LPO, just because someone has to take the loot off the boss's dead body to give the loot to someone else, that's just it, and it's nothing more. No longer will the looting mode in the Group Finder be called "Master Loot". Master Loot can or will still exist, of course, but it will only be used in the Guilds', and not Group Finder's, territory. If you roll with a guild or in guilds environment, they will still pick Master Loot, and that's it. No votes, nothing, just like normal. If you join the Group Finder, however, you will now be in the "Loot Assignment" or "Loot Pass-Out" territory. You've left behind the "Master Loot" system.

[Eleccybubb]

Well, I have been Ninja Looted before in the Group Finder so there is certainly some element of distrust in there. However, this is mostly, I think, about uncertainty, fear, and dread of being Ninja Looted after all that hard work of sitting through a raid, dodging mechanics, performing roles, wiping, many wipes, and possibly some group drama in there to up the spice to finally find success and triumph of downing the boss, seeing the mind-blowing, eye-melting, and jaw-dropping loot drop in the loot window off of the boss's glimmering and flash-light dead body, just to end with being Ninja Looted.

- - - Updated - - -

Hmmm...I think calling this new loot voting system "Master Loot" still will only lead to miscommunication. In the Group Finder's public territory, it needs to be renamed or has a new name to signify a new mode of looting in this new territory. I think we should call it "Loot Assignment" or "Loot Pass-Out" mode, abbreviated to LA or LPO, just because someone has to take the loot off the boss's dead body to give the loot to someone else, that's just it, and it's nothing more. No longer will the looting mode in the Group Finder be called "Master Loot". Master Loot can or will still exist, of course, but it will only be used in the Guilds', and not Group Finder's, territory. If you roll with a guild or in guilds environment, they will still pick Master Loot, and that's it. No votes, nothing, just like normal. If you join the Group Finder, however, you will now be in the "Loot Assignment" or "Loot Pass-Out" territory. You've left behind the "Master Loot" system.

And again no. Master looter serves it's purpose. Use personal loot in the Group Finder or join a group using it. You chose willingly to join an ML group so you knew the risks. The level of distrust is on your end. You have 3 remedies to your situation that work. One join a guild and raid with them for loot, create your own personal loot group and finally create your own master loot group. And changing the name will not make anyone think of it as anything different. The idea is that you have a master of loot whom assigns it to players based on a simple /roll or whomever it is a better upgrade for. You are basically trying to keep a system the same but add your own personal gripes into it which does not work. I hate master loot as much as the next person which is why I only use it with friends or guildies and personal for pugs as I said.

[PaladinBash]

Personal loot.

Yep. This is the best and only way. You can even trade it to people that were able to loot from the fight. Yeah some dude might have his mates giving him loot or some shit but he's not taking it from you so it doesn't mean shit. It takes away all the possible drama and is the only way to do loot in a pug. I absolutely guarantee anyone who isn't doing it is going to ninja. I would assume it and if you don't and someone ninjas your shit, that's on you entirely.

[Deleted]

So a 4 page thread about wanting Personal Loot, but also wanting the chance of someone ninjaing it from you? The what in the what?

[Niwes]

the best and easiest thing to fix all problems is this:

- force PL into every pug things (pug tool, lfr, lfg) - no other options, just PL
- dont show what ppl get
- let ppl trade their loot for 1h IF they want to (shift it in chat), like its in ML

all problems solved. and know what ? blizz said while blizzcon that they will do EXACTLY this in Legion.

dont know if it happened already on alpha.

[Tart]

And again no. Master looter serves it's purpose. Use personal loot in the Group Finder or join a group using it. You chose willingly to join an ML group so you knew the risks. The level of distrust is on your end. You have 3 remedies to your situation that work. One join a guild and raid with them for loot, create your own personal loot group and finally create your own master loot group. And changing the name will not make anyone think of it as anything different. The idea is that you have a master of loot whom assigns it to players based on a simple /roll or whomever it is a better upgrade for. You are basically trying to keep a system the same but add your own personal gripes into it which does not work. I hate master loot as much as the next person which is why I only use it with friends or guildies and personal for pugs as I said.

Problem is can the ml be trusted not to take the gear himself or distribute it to friends. Its catch 22 sometimes.

[Rehok]

Problem is can the ml be trusted not to take the gear himself or distribute it to friends. Its catch 22 sometimes.

That's why blizzard say only use it in trusted groups. That's why i use OpenRaid for runs as they get a reputation on OpenRaid.