[MARKSMANSHIP]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Mahmeya]

The "replaces X" are missing because of changes in the game UI - or so I was reading somewhere. It's no longer attached to the talent description or something.

[Kyulan]

I dislike the chance with MM being able to have a pet again. I liked it as a true marksman archetype which fit this class fantasy Blizzard keeps going on about recently. None of the current MM build options be it artifact, talents or glyphs have any synergy with a pet.

[Mahmeya]

Because it was supposed to be that way. But they gave in after some players forum-raged about losing the pet. MM should be petless even if just to promote diversity...

[Kyulan]

Despite the class still being Hunter to me Marksman class fantasy is not "Master of the Hunt". Rather a fighter from a distance like archers. I like the fact that those absolutely dislike guns will most likely have the Titanic bow model previewed on fansites. I believe there was a gun model datamined for Marksman too?

[Deleted]

Been watching some of the raid testing streams that I can (can't stay up so late on EU due to work) but has anyone seen on the current numbers or do people estimate that the AOE from MM is gonna be competitive compared to other classes or are we gonna have to play BM again for aoe cleave fights you reckon? Also yes I know numbers pass hasn't happened yet, just what people are guessing with the spec. Just makes me wonder if what they say will be true about the class overhauls that every spec is competitive in every scenario. It'd be very nice, but how realistic will it be. Although at least so far we've gotten few AOE talents and using multi will be beneficial this time around. :P

[Youn]

Marksman at the moment is going to get nerfed. As they cannot bring up all the other dps specs (besides boomkin) to marksman level. So, numbers wise, I would expect that we will see a general downward adjustment.

[durrtygoodz]

Marksman at the moment is going to get nerfed. As they cannot bring up all the other dps specs (besides boomkin) to marksman level. So, numbers wise, I would expect that we will see a general downward adjustment.

Yeah no shit. Number parses don't happen until the last few weeks anyway so pointless to complain.

[Zenny]

Would it not work better (to help spec identity) to have a pet added to the spec via a talent? With Lone Wold being baseline? Seems it would be easier to balance as well.

[Youn]

Yeah, we can see that. But apparently the blizzard design team is looking for short cuts. And we are top dps at the moment, so their care on how our other talents work out is very low.

[Deleted]

Been watching some of the raid testing streams that I can (can't stay up so late on EU due to work) but has anyone seen on the current numbers or do people estimate that the AOE from MM is gonna be competitive compared to other classes or are we gonna have to play BM again for aoe cleave fights you reckon? Also yes I know numbers pass hasn't happened yet, just what people are guessing with the spec. Just makes me wonder if what they say will be true about the class overhauls that every spec is competitive in every scenario. It'd be very nice, but how realistic will it be. Although at least so far we've gotten few AOE talents and using multi will be beneficial this time around. :P

With the way MM is designed now, there's no way you'll need to go to BM just because of AoE or cleave.

Assume the following:

1) Blizzard will try to tune Marksmanship to do roughly the same single target damage as every other spec in the game. This is their balance goal.

2) Marksmanship therefore does same single target damage as everyone else.

3) Now take into account that Aimed Shot does automatic AoE with Trick shot. Take into account that Barrage is still as good or better than before. Take into account that Marked Shot hits basically everyone in the whole room, even though you're simply using your single target rotation. Take into account that Sidewinders hits everyone in the room, even though you're simply using your single target rotation.

The end result is that MM will be very strong in AoE, while also burning the primary target with your full single target dps.

The only way this isn't the case is if they specifically start nerfing Trick Shot from 30% to 10%, nerfing Barrage damage, and nerfing Marked Shot to hit secondary and tertiary targets for less damage than it hits the primary target. Then the spec has the potential to suck. But if that would be the case, they would have to add completely new pure AoE spells to compensate, or buff the few existing ones enormously.

But as it is now, as long as it's tuned competitively in single target, the AoE will be outrageously good. You're basically barraging the whole room nonstop, despite actually being on your single target rotation with very few modifications.

[Eapoe]

With the way MM is designed now, there's no way you'll need to go to BM just because of AoE or cleave.

Assume the following:

1) Blizzard will try to tune Marksmanship to do roughly the same single target damage as every other spec in the game. This is their balance goal.

2) Marksmanship therefore does same single target damage as everyone else.

3) Now take into account that Aimed Shot does automatic AoE with Trick shot. Take into account that Barrage is still as good or better than before. Take into account that Marked Shot hits basically everyone in the whole room, even though you're simply using your single target rotation. Take into account that Sidewinders hits everyone in the room, even though you're simply using your single target rotation.

The end result is that MM will be very strong in AoE, while also burning the primary target with your full single target dps.

The only way this isn't the case is if they specifically start nerfing Trick Shot from 30% to 10%, nerfing Barrage damage, and nerfing Marked Shot to hit secondary and tertiary targets for less damage than it hits the primary target. Then the spec has the potential to suck. But if that would be the case, they would have to add completely new pure AoE spells to compensate, or buff the few existing ones enormously.

But as it is now, as long as it's tuned competitively in single target, the AoE will be outrageously good. You're basically barraging the whole room nonstop, despite actually being on your single target rotation with very few modifications.

I haven't been on Alpha, but going off the talent calculator it's not this simple. 1st you have to get the proc that marks everything with spamming multishots since trick shot will only hit targets that are Marked. Not sure about sidewinders since depending on the arc and spread it might not hit everything. In addition to having to lose some ST talents to take AoE/Cleave abilities such as these.
So it comes down to fishing for procs just to have trick shot hit everything, and assuming you would use MS after a Barrage, depending on how quickly RNG smiles upon you to get the targets marked before your Trick Shot even comes into play.
That being said, again, not on Alpha, just reading the calc and seeing how abilities work and I'm not going to say the AoE situation is bad, but looks like it still wouldn't be as reliable as a Barrage/Beast Cleave combo like it's been on Live.

[Youn]

You are going to fire off alot of multi-shots per minute to get those procs.

Assume 40 Actions per minute with a 1.5second GCD.

Windburst is 20 second CD. So, 3 per minute (20 focus * 3 = 60 Focus)
Marked shot is ~6 procs per minute. for 6 per minute (30 focus * 6 = 180 Focus)
Sidewinders 12 second CD. So, 5 per minute (Generates 60 focus * 5 = 300 focus generated)
Every Aimed Shot (2 second cast plus 50 focus cost)

So, taking Windburst plus Marked Shot plus Sidewinders = 14 actions with net positive 60 focus. Add in normal regeneration for net 660 focus.

First 13 Aimed shots per minute are covered by the focus for 650 focus.

Each multi-shot is 2 focus per target after that. If you fired 12 on 3 targets you would have 72 focus generated.
So, 72+130 focus = 4 more Aimed shots over the fight.


Not sure if 12 Multi-shots plus 6 Sindwinders per turn will generate 6 procs. Note: This doesn't take into effect your level of haste. That will alter the numbers.

[Garfurion]

You are going to fire off alot of multi-shots per minute to get those procs.

Assume 40 Actions per minute with a 1.5second GCD.

Windburst is 20 second CD. So, 3 per minute (20 focus * 3 = 60 Focus)
Marked shot is ~6 procs per minute. for 6 per minute (30 focus * 6 = 180 Focus)
Sidewinders 12 second CD. So, 5 per minute (Generates 60 focus * 5 = 300 focus generated)
Every Aimed Shot (2 second cast plus 50 focus cost)

So, taking Windburst plus Marked Shot plus Sidewinders = 14 actions with net positive 60 focus. Add in normal regeneration for net 660 focus.

First 13 Aimed shots per minute are covered by the focus for 650 focus.

Each multi-shot is 2 focus per target after that. If you fired 12 on 3 targets you would have 72 focus generated.
So, 72+130 focus = 4 more Aimed shots over the fight.


Not sure if 12 Multi-shots plus 6 Sindwinders per turn will generate 6 procs. Note: This doesn't take into effect your level of haste. That will alter the numbers.

Currently, Sidewinders also replaces Multi-Shot. Not sure if that is bug or not.

[Youn]

Odd, the tooltip says replaces Arcane shot. It would make sense to also replace Multi-shot.

If that is true then pretty much you get that 140 focus to fire off barrages or extra aimed shots. Nothing you can do will generate more focus.

[Garfurion]

Odd, the tooltip says replaces Arcane shot. It would make sense to also replace Multi-shot.

If that is true then pretty much you get that 140 focus to fire off barrages or extra aimed shots. Nothing you can do will generate more focus.

It's also missing from the in-game tooltip

I just saw that there is an artifact perk (Called Shot) which also changes from Multi-Shot to Sidewinders so I guess it's not a bug but just a tooltip error.

[Deleted]

I haven't been on Alpha, but going off the talent calculator it's not this simple. 1st you have to get the proc that marks everything with spamming multishots since trick shot will only hit targets that are Marked. Not sure about sidewinders since depending on the arc and spread it might not hit everything. In addition to having to lose some ST talents to take AoE/Cleave abilities such as these.
So it comes down to fishing for procs just to have trick shot hit everything, and assuming you would use MS after a Barrage, depending on how quickly RNG smiles upon you to get the targets marked before your Trick Shot even comes into play.
That being said, again, not on Alpha, just reading the calc and seeing how abilities work and I'm not going to say the AoE situation is bad, but looks like it still wouldn't be as reliable as a Barrage/Beast Cleave combo like it's been on Live.

TL: DR Sidewinders procs mark with 100% rate, giving the spec a very smooth rotation. Sidewinders is followed by marked shot which is followed by as many aimed shots as you can fit in the patient sniper deadshot window (more haste the merrier). Then you just sidewinders again. The cleave and aoe is completely automatic, like I described, and outdps's every class. ZERO rng. Arcane torrent and windburst are the third or the fourth cycle when you're focus starved and still have about 1-2 seconds to wait for sidewinders cooldown to reset.

Based on every boss test so far, and we've done them all, sidewinders and the rotation it brings has by far outperformed the other options.

Multishot proc rate is also very high, but it's not as good in aoe situations still, at least in this tuning.

Yes, Sidewinders replaces both multi and arcane. As it should. You don't need either when you have sidewinders. It refills your focus bar instantly (70 with artifact talent) and your AoE comes from the massive marked shots that follow it (and barrage). The area that sidewinders hits is absolutely massive (that's why I said you keep hitting the whole room).

[Eapoe]

TL: DR Sidewinders procs mark with 100% rate, giving the spec a very smooth rotation. Sidewinders is followed by marked shot which is followed by as many aimed shots as you can fit in the patient sniper deadshot window (more haste the merrier). Then you just sidewinders again. The cleave and aoe is completely automatic, like I described, and outdps's every class. ZERO rng. Arcane torrent and windburst are the third or the fourth cycle when you're focus starved and still have about 1-2 seconds to wait for sidewinders cooldown to reset.

Based on every boss test so far, and we've done them all, sidewinders and the rotation it brings has by far outperformed the other options.

Multishot proc rate is also very high, but it's not as good in aoe situations still, at least in this tuning.

Yes, Sidewinders replaces both multi and arcane. As it should. You don't need either when you have sidewinders. It refills your focus bar instantly (70 with artifact talent) and your AoE comes from the massive marked shots that follow it (and barrage). The area that sidewinders hits is absolutely massive (that's why I said you keep hitting the whole room).

This can not be working as intended. It automatically makes that the only talent choice in the tier giving a 100% proc chance vs the standard ability having only a chance. If it is intended, then gg, but seems like a bug. That, or the fact it has only 2 charges with a 12 sec recharge implies it might be down for AoE moments when it would be helpful, or you are holding off on ST waiting to use it for adds to get grouped up, which might be more towards the intent.
If it stays this way I can see a big nerf stick coming to some abilities overall, just seems pretty broken to have your ST also be your complete AoE/Cleave kit as well. Again, I haven't played Alpha so who knows, but it is obviously going to have the optimal talent choices and maybe Sidewinders will be it.

[construkt]

Is sidewinders even optimal from a DPS perspective? I have very little issue getting procs at the moment, overall, although there are occasions where Marked for Death will drop and there really isn't much you can do about it. LnL seems like the de facto choice paired with Sniper Training and True Aim for big damage. Especially since they doubled the LnL chance.

[Nakauri]

Sidewinders does not have a 100% proc rate. It has the same 8RPPM hasted proc rate as arcane and multi. The proc rate is dictated by a separate spell all together called Hunter's Mark. Sidewinders simply appears to have a high proc rate because of its built in cooldown and the way RPPM works.

[Deleted]

This can not be working as intended.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't intended, considering it's been that way ever since Sidewinders was implemented.

It has to proc at 100%, because it only has 2 charges, and isn't spammable because of the cooldown. That said, the only difficulty involved is exactly like you said. There are some rare situations where you only have 1 mob to shoot at, and it doesn't have hunter's mark. You have to cast Sidewinders to get your debuffs going. But if you know that a bit later a large AoE spack will spawn, you're wondering whether you should wait. You only have one ability to generate both hunter's marks AND focus, and it isn't spammable, so in theory you need to pick your spots.

Anyway, those situations are few and far between, and far outweighed by the fact that when you have multiple targets, your dmg is off the charts.

We couldn't determine any advantage in picking lock and load over Sidewinders, even for a purely single target fight, but obviously that's just based on a random amount of attempts and logs, instead of simulating it. It could very well be that LnL is better in a purely single target situation. But if it is, it isn't by much, and Sidewinders certainly has a quality of life feel to it, since there's no RNG whatsoever involved.

As far as some talents outweighing others is concerned, that's still a major issue, and not only at the last tier. Patient Sniper is so obviously strong that the others don't really compare at all, and since Lone Wolf was implemented it became an always taken.

Sidewinders does not have a 100% proc rate. It has the same 6RPPM hasted proc rate as arcane and multi. The proc rate is dictated by a separate spell all together called Hunter's Mark. Sidewinders simply appears to have a high proc rate because of its built in cooldown and the way RPPM works.

This is a more accurate way of describing that it actually has 100% proc rate rotationally speaking. The only time I have ever had it not proc on over 100 boss pulls was if you start a fight by casting Sidewinders, and that's because Legion changed something about the beginning of encounters. When you pull, it considers all of your abilities and trinkets as having just procced before you pulled, so they won't proc immediately again.

That's why I always pull with something like windburst, aimed, aimed, and then enough time has passed to cast Sidewinders and keep casting Sidewinders for the rest of the fight for 100% procs. The logs obviously confirm this.