Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Deficineiron]

Sorry, if it didn't matter this issue would be a non-issue. It's clearly a dividing topic, hence it has to matter to some people.

If, for you, the difference in experiences doesn't matter and everything is irrelevant and the same as it's on retail - why are you even interested in discussing the topic?
Trying to re-affirm that Illegal Private Servers are Illegal? That was confirmed in the first 5 pages of the thread, time to move on, Champ.

I am one of the hardened thugs too. You miss my point. Perhaps I should put jailbars on my avatar to get the point across?

[Gadzooks]

Over the past few weeks and months I've seen more and more mentions of Nos on forums and the like, it might just have got too big and too visible for Blizzard to ignore any more. Remember IP holders have to actively defend their rights or risk losing them.

Someone also mentioned that Nos recently started asking for donations to keep the servers going, that might have crossed a line that either allowed or forced Blizzard to take action.

There more I think about it, I think it's more tracking down the names and addresses of all involved. They may have had to get subpoenas for records from their hosting company, Twitter, Facebook, and who knows where else. And no, they don't notify you if someone subpoena's a company you do business with, if they're getting information to sue you.

[Deficineiron]

A tort? Civil vs. criminal law. There are criminal aspects of copyright law, but a large part is civil.

I haven't seen a french and/or eu lawyer chime in on this. given the international nature, it is a pretty specialized area of law. I would be curious to know whether the donation issue they recently started was the line crossed that triggered the c*d.

[Pwellzor]

Take the hit from whom? As I understand it, the mango team would have to sue them. The GPL Conservatory might ask for their time and effort paid for if it was an issue, but the GPL is only enforced in courts, as a copyright infringement. As it's been explained to me, The Conservatory usually tries to get all parties in compliance when complaints are filed, they're not an oversight board and have no legal authority to sue or fine people. They act as arbitration in most cases, as most GPL violations are settled out of court.

And, as i understand it, they have no legal responsibility to share it at all - if I'm wrong, please correct me. I'm using the FAQ from gnu.org:

Does the GPL require that source code of modified versions be posted to the public? (#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic)
The GPL does not require you to release your modified version, or any part of it. You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization.

But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL.

Thus, the GPL gives permission to release the modified program in certain ways, and not in other ways; but the decision of whether to release it is up to you.

This is the grey area I am not sure about. Whether having a server accessible to a non-GPL client qualifies as "releasing the modified version to the public" is the question, and something I am not confident enough to say.

[Gadzooks]

A tort? Civil vs. criminal law. There are criminal aspects of copyright law, but a large part is civil.

That hasn't been an issue, except when people jump in with things like "But nothing was stolen", and that people using the shorthand of "theft" for infringement.

This is definitely a civil case. No criminal charges have been filed, and I've seen no proof yet that civil charges have been.

[Saffa]

Aww I liked Nostalrius. Was really fun (and very easy) to remind oneself what Vanilla was like. Of course it's illegal, but I never really saw the harm in it.

In that case, post your address. I am sure there are many people who would like to come and steal your property. It may be illegal to do so, but they would not see the harm in it

[Pwellzor]

Wow, that is something I did not know.

That is beyond what I deemed reasonable in terms of revenue. I'd need to see the source.

[Pantalaimon]

And you're seriously just wrong. Changing is something MMORPGs tend to do, not something that defines them. Either way, there's more character progression in Vanilla than there is in MoP/Wod combined. And alts aren't nearly as viable as they have been since Wrath. Meaning much more play time.

It actually does indirectly define them. Unless you are going to have an MMO that never has an expansion or adds new content then it will always change to one degree or another. I will still hold to my previous statement, go find another genre of game if the one you enjoyed playing bothers you when it moves on from the stage you most enjoyed it.

[Gadzooks]

This is the grey area I am not sure about. Whether having a server accessible to a non-GPL client qualifies as "releasing the modified version to the public" is the question, and something I am not confident enough to say.

Me neither - and I don't think it's really an issue they are worried about at the moment. If they do release it, they're in compliance. If they don't, they're still in compliance. They have bigger legal issues at hand.

[Pwellzor]

Me neither - and I don't think it's really an issue they are worried about at the moment. If they do release it, they're in compliance. If they don't, they're still in compliance. They have bigger legal issues at hand.

I think if they do release it and they weren't required to by the GPL, it's a bad move on their part, even if not legally, but simply to keep their benign image constant.

[Darkeon]

Copyright infringement IS stealing. Stealing IS immoral.

Now that's where I feel the issue arises.

Joe steals some medicine and sells it for a profit. Joe committed a crime, stealing.
Joe steals some medicine, because he has no money, to give to his suffering child. Joe committed a crime, stealing.

Both are crimes, yet the morality of the actions is very debatable. And that all comes down to each individual's personal moral code.

I didn't notice @Jester Joe ever claiming that the people working on the Illegal Private Servers were not committing any crime. Nor did I saw him stating that Blizzard was not in their right to shut the Illegal Private Server down.
(Granted I wasn't paying full attention at the time, so if I am wrong, do point me where he did.)

What I saw him doing was question the morality of the subject.
From the information we have, these people, while criminals, weren't in this for their own personal profit and instead offering an illegal service, unavailable via official means, to anyone interested.
That, to me, seems a very easy situation for the moral compass to swing to either way, depending on the person's moral code.

[Pwellzor]

In that case, post your address. I am sure there are many people who would like to come and steal your property. It may be illegal to do so, but they would not see the harm in it

This isn't equivalent and damaging to the argument.

[A dot Ham]

Newsflash: That has never been a mystery. No one serious here thinks what Blizz did was outside of their rights.


Fyi, I can justify "stealing" a game the same way you justify rolling through a stop sign every day. Difference is I own a copy of the game Bliz doesn't allow me to play.

Today I buy a puppy from the pet store. I love his puppy antics fucker is sups adorbs. 14 years later... he's blind, doesn't get around much, and fucking barks at everything that moves or doesn't.

I don't then get to to the breeder that supplies the pet store and take a brand new puppy, because that's what I paid for 14 years ago. I didn't buy a haggard crotchety old dog... I bought a puppy. I want to play with a puppy.

WoW is not a console game. It is an ever evolving fluid... life form really.


and that stop sign is fucking pointless... no cars EVER... just ME!

[Deficineiron]

Wow, that is something I did not know.

he canned a bunch of vivendi stuff right after the merger and made that comment in response to a question.

[Deleted]

Take the hit from whom? As I understand it, the mango team would have to sue them. The GPL Conservatory might ask for their time and effort paid for if it was an issue, but the GPL is only enforced in courts, as a copyright infringement. As it's been explained to me, The Conservatory usually tries to get all parties in compliance when complaints are filed, they're not an oversight board and have no legal authority to sue or fine people. They act as arbitration in most cases, as most GPL violations are settled out of court.

And, as i understand it, they have no legal responsibility to share it at all - if I'm wrong, please correct me. I'm using the FAQ from gnu.org:

Does the GPL require that source code of modified versions be posted to the public? (#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic)
The GPL does not require you to release your modified version, or any part of it. You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization.

But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL.

Thus, the GPL gives permission to release the modified program in certain ways, and not in other ways; but the decision of whether to release it is up to you.

Thanks. The Nostralius crew need to go into serious damage control mode now. I don't want Blizzard to punish them for this. Because I already know how harsh that punishment will be.

[A dot Ham]

Keep in mind as someone who played on the server I don't disagree with you at all, what Blizzard did was within their rights as a company to do and I don't blame them one bit for doing it. However, I enjoyed playing Vanilla again, it was so much more entertaining than what they currently have out right now. At the end of the day for me it has absolutely nothing to do with who is on the right and who is in the wrong, I was enjoying myself and frankly that is all I care about.

There was a time when I sided with the gaming companies on stuff like this, I was one of the ones pounding away at the " stealers", but after watching several of them destroy very good games in pursuit of the almighty dollar, I simply don't care anymore. I'm worried about my fun and enjoyment these days, and if Blizzard won't take my money and create ( or recreate) something I want to play then I will find someone that will.

I am more than willing to pay Blizzard a sub for the regular game and another sub for Vanilla/TBC/Wrath if they would offer it. I want to be on the right side of things and give the company the money that belongs to them. However if they are unwilling to do that, I am no longer against finding someone that will. Right or wrong doesn't matter, it just simply is at this point.

Anything for that fix amirite?

I mean really this is the justification of drug users/abusers.

(1) Well you just go home and get high on booze and/or anti-depressants
(2) If you would just legalize it and tax it I would pay more for it
(3) Since you aren't providing it I have to find someone who will

[Zandalarian Paladin]

I don't think Blizzard can punish them more. They sent a cease and desist, which if complied to won't lead to legal damages. At least from my understanding.

[Gadzooks]

Now that's where I feel the issue arises.

Joe steals some medicine and sells it for a profit. Joe committed a crime, stealing.
Joe steals some medicine, because he has no money, to give to his suffering child. Joe committed a crime, stealing.

Both are crimes, yet the morality of the actions is very debatable. And that all comes down to each individual's personal moral code.

I didn't notice @Jester Joe ever claiming that the people working on the Illegal Private Servers were not committing any crime. Nor did I saw him stating that Blizzard was not in their right to shut the Illegal Private Server down.
(Granted I wasn't paying full attention at the time, so if I am wrong, do point me where he did.)

What I saw him doing was question the morality of the subject.
From the information we have, these people, while criminals, weren't in this for their own personal profit and instead offering an illegal service, unavailable via official means, to anyone interested.
That, to me, seems a very easy situation for the moral compass to swing to either way, depending on the person's moral code.

But it's meaningless in the courtroom, which is where the discussion counts. You can discuss their morality all you want, it's meaningless to me, and in my opinion, to the overall discussion, unless you're trying to rationalize being part of copyright infringement. If it helps you sleep better at night, more power to you, but the judge and jury don't care.

[Deficineiron]

I cant really find anything at the moment. I did not have it in me to ask for a source again.

i read it not long ago in an old q*a with him lemme see if I can figure out where it came from. Anyone who has followed me on corporate statements would tell you that if I say I saw it, I am in fact certain that I did.

[Pwellzor]

Anything for that fix amirite?

I mean really this is the justification of drug users/abusers.

(1) Well you just go home and get high on booze and/or anti-depressants
(2) If you would just legalize it and tax it I would pay more for it
(3) Since you aren't providing it I have to find someone who will

God Damnit

- - - Updated - - -

i read it not long ago in an old q*a with him lemme see if I can figure out where it came from. Anyone who has followed me on corporate statements would tell you that if I say I saw it, I am in fact certain that I did.

It is a pretty big deal to this debate/thread/w/e, so I'd be interested in reading the context if you can find it.