[Legion] Discipline Priest Discussion

[Deleted]

Ursol's Vortex, Innervate, and Typhoon are better utility than anything Disc has. Shining Force, Levitate, and Leap of Faith are comparatively useless. Displacer Beast and Wild Charge give druids tremendous mobility, and Feral Affinity can be added if that somehow isn't enough.

It's ridiculous to suppose that this utility is worth nothing. What exactly it's worth is a difficult question.

The heck? Most of this post is absolute nonsense. I'm just shaking my head in disbelief.

What do you think Power Word: Barrier is, by the way? Angel Feathers and Body and Soul? Pain Suppression?

Power Word: Barrier is in my opinion some of the most powerful utility any spec could bring. Even with terrible numbers, Disc would be brought for Power Word: Barrier.

[Symmone]

I think there is definitely something to be said for healers who have a spell that can be used in a pinch to save the raid group for a heavy dose of damage. Although that really hinges on the encounter design if its something that is necessary. In its current form disc lacks some soft cool downs or healing throughput cds that can be compared to some of the other classes multitarget cds as mentioned in other posts. We used to have AA but it was removed.

The only multitarget one disc inherently has is barrier which is highly proximity dependent so we have to see what encounter designs will facilitate its effectiveness in raid.

And then of course Im reading things about how discs raw hps is generally lower but we are supposed to add their dps/hps ratio as their full utility? So would it be safe to assume then that our small dps contribution (not much above tanks from what Ive seen) will be enough to say avoid mechanic before its cast? Like our dps will be the tipping point to kill an add before they cast some devastating spell on the raid? Thus essentially saving the raid from taking damage?

How do you directly compare dps to hps anyway?

[Deleted]

I could easily see why in a 10man raid why stacking 3 discs would be viable. If all 3 of the disc priests dps are equal to or greater than the loss of one dps, why would you not??

The only thing that would cause issues would be raid wide high aoe damage that does not allow the raid group to stack under barrier, but then each priest only has 3-4 atonements to manage so it could be quite possible to heal through it with ST cooldowns.

As long as all the raid buffs are covered, seems legit.

[Deleted]

DPS as well as HPS are sums of their parts.

If Disc deals "not much above tanks" DPS while healing even remotely close to other healers, you want to replace nearly all DPS with Disc until you have healing taken care of, then fill the rest with DPS. Whether you bring any other healers would depend on utility that's necessary, but I'd have to wonder if it could outweigh the value having like 6 Discs would bring. You would need to figure out the playstyle that brings the absolute highest weighed HPS+DPS and then bring as many Discs as necessary for that, be it 6 or 10.

[Pearl1717]

Power Word: Barrier is in my opinion some of the most powerful utility any spec could bring. Even with terrible numbers, Disc would be brought for Power Word: Barrier.

PWB is a Raid CD, not utility. Then by that token you have to consider tranq as utility, and tranq is much stronger than PWB in the majority of fights. Same goes for PS (which is significantly nerfed in Legion and is worse than IB or HoS in general).

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DPS as well as HPS are sums of their parts.

If Disc deals "not much above tanks" DPS while healing even remotely close to other healers, you want to replace nearly all DPS with Disc until you have healing taken care of, then fill the rest with DPS. Whether you bring any other healers would depend on utility that's necessary, but I'd have to wonder if it could outweigh the value having like 6 Discs would bring. You would need to figure out the playstyle that brings the absolute highest weighed HPS+DPS and then bring as many Discs as necessary for that, be it 6 or 10.

Get ready to wipe to enrage on every boss! Sounds like an optimal set up to me. Why would you want to start replacing all dps with disc? That just doesn't even make sense.

[bloodmoth13]

Disc damage is part of their Utility. You can't just say add up HPS and DPS to determine how OP a spec is or isn't. You need to account for Utility and encounter design.

What will they give up for that utility?
Not dissing, im just genuinely curious on how this will be balanced, its a bit hard to compare cc to damage and stuff, its alot easier to compare raw numbers.
I love the idea, the way i think it works is that they have chunky upfront healing burst spells that provide poor sustained healing (heals with drawbacks like shadowmend and shadow covenant), then they must dps to provide sustained healing...

I have a good idea how this can work.

Druids dot targets up and have a ton of reliable sustained healing, once targets are hotted then they can spend some spare time contributing to dps or continue to provide straight high efficient healing
Discipline priests will heal through dps, or anotherway to look at it is deal damage while healing, meaning that to be efficient they must have 100% uptime wheras a druid can fire and forget creating some room in their gameplay for more options, which damage could fall under

Holy priests can fuck around while sitting on their holy words, then burst peeps up back to where you want them, so they could have opportunities to dps instead of healing

Shaman could sit on lava burst charges or something then blow them whenever they have low inc damage

So while disc strictly heals while dpsing, the others can still contribute damage depending on how they play, just depends on numbers

[Yunzi]

The heck? Most of this post is absolute nonsense. I'm just shaking my head in disbelief.

What do you think Power Word: Barrier is, by the way? Angel Feathers and Body and Soul? Pain Suppression?

Power Word: Barrier is in my opinion some of the most powerful utility any spec could bring. Even with terrible numbers, Disc would be brought for Power Word: Barrier.

Pain Suppression compares to Ironbark - Pain Suppression is a 40% damage reduction for 8 seconds with a 5 minute cooldown - Ironbark/Stonebark is a 20% damage reduction for 12 seconds with a 1.5 minute cooldown. They are really part of HPS, not utility - just ignored on the meters due to a technical weakness of those meters, and in any case Ironbark is generally better, although it depends on the specifics of the encounter.

Power Word: Barrier, again, is HPS - if it showed up on the HPS meter as it should you wouldn't even have mentioned it. Due to it's 3-minute cooldown it clearly serves the same gameplay role as Tranquility, Revival, Divine Hymn, or Healing Tide Totem - but is usually worse, and in spread fights far worse, than any of those.

What Disc is good at in WoD and hopefully will remain good at in Legion is strong, sustained HPS+DPS. But IF Blizzard decides to hard-balance the spec to match it's HPS+DPS against all other healers, the spec is going to suck - it lacks utility, lacks good or even decent cooldowns, and furthermore most raid leaders ignore any damage healers do when deciding who to bring to a raid. A HPS+DPS hard-balance of Disc versus other healers will destroy it's value.

[Deleted]

PWB is a Raid CD, not utility. Then by that token you have to consider tranq as utility, and tranq is much stronger than PWB in the majority of fights. Same goes for PS (which is significantly nerfed in Legion and is worse than IB or HoS in general).

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Get ready to wipe to enrage on every boss! Sounds like an optimal set up to me. Why would you want to start replacing all dps with disc? That just doesn't even make sense.

To the first quote: If this would be the case, that'd be alright. However, Blizzard seems to take Tranq HPS into account when they balance healers' HPS. It brings Druids up to par in HPS, it's not extra. Otherwise Disc would be at the bottom of all HPS charts. In addition, PW:B often does more effective healing than any other healing cooldown. Just because it's not on the meters doesn't mean this isn't the case.


As for the second quote:

Did you not understand what I was saying? Let me give you an example.

Say an average healer heals 100k HPS and an average DPS deals 100k DPS. Say a Discipline Priest heals 50k HPS and deals 70k DPS.

This encounter requires 500k HPS, so we'd use 5 healers and 13 DPS. The healers will either deal no damage or insignificant damage, so these 18 members of our raid group will deal a total of 1.3mil DPS and 500k HPS.

Now, we replace all of our healers and then DPS with Discs until we reach the amount of healing required. A Disc heals 50k HPS in this example, so 10 Discs would give us 500k HPS, the amount that is required to kill the boss. We have 8 slots left, so we replace those with DPS that deal 100k DPS each.

Case 1:
5 Healers, 100k HPS each, 500k HPS total.
13 DPS, 100k DPS each, 1.3mil DPS total.
500k HPS, 1.3mil DPS total.

Case 2:
10 Discs, 50k HPS each, 500k HPS total.
10 Discs, 70k DPS each, 700k DPS total.
8 DPS, 100k DPS each, 800k DPS total.
500k HPS, 1.5mil DPS total.

The raid group stacking 10 Discs has approximately 15.4% more DPS. Why are they going to wipe to enrage, again? 50k HPS even is severely lowballing Disc HPS. They'd never allow Discs to heal that little, they need to be able to finish 5mans.

[rosastolemyseat]

To the first quote: If this would be the case, that'd be alright. However, Blizzard seems to take Tranq HPS into account when they balance healers' HPS. It brings Druids up to par in HPS, it's not extra. Otherwise Disc would be at the bottom of all HPS charts. In addition, PW:B often does more effective healing than any other healing cooldown. Just because it's not on the meters doesn't mean this isn't the case.

What? not sure if you're talking about actual hps, or pure hps. But, as far as pure healing goes, as pospospos mentioned, disc IS at the bottom of every HPS chart. There's a reason druids can hit up to 350k hps on farm, while disc can only hit 250k.

As for the second quote:

Did you not understand what I was saying? Let me give you an example.

Say an average healer heals 100k HPS and an average DPS deals 100k DPS. Say a Discipline Priest heals 50k HPS and deals 70k DPS.

This encounter requires 500k HPS, so we'd use 5 healers and 13 DPS. The healers will either deal no damage or insignificant damage, so these 18 members of our raid group will deal a total of 1.3mil DPS and 500k HPS.

Now, we replace all of our healers and then DPS with Discs until we reach the amount of healing required. A Disc heals 50k HPS in this example, so 10 Discs would give us 500k HPS, the amount that is required to kill the boss. We have 8 slots left, so we replace those with DPS that deal 100k DPS each.

Case 1:
5 Healers, 100k HPS each, 500k HPS total.
13 DPS, 100k DPS each, 1.3mil DPS total.
500k HPS, 1.3mil DPS total.

Case 2:
10 Discs, 50k HPS each, 500k HPS total.
10 Discs, 70k DPS each, 700k DPS total.
8 DPS, 100k DPS each, 800k DPS total.
500k HPS, 1.5mil DPS total.

The raid group stacking 10 Discs has approximately 15.4% more DPS. Why are they going to wipe to enrage, again? 50k HPS even is severely lowballing Disc HPS. They'd never allow Discs to heal that little, they need to be able to finish 5mans.

I don't really understand what you're talking about with those numbers. In what world does a disc priest, or a healer in general(since healers in general do some very nice deeps in legion) does 70% as much damage as a DPS? I mean, we have a lot of numbers already from the raid testing, you don't have to make up your own. Actual dps classes are ranging anywhere from 150k-350k. While disc priests are lagging at around 50k-90k. Not really sure that 10 discs would ever be able to beat 10 dps in terms of pure dmg+utility. I can definitely see you dropping a throughput healer in favor of a second disc for the extra dps on fights like the Heart of Corruption. However, as far as swapping a whole dps(when you usually want as much dps as possible during progression) seems kind of silly.

[Djriff]

Keep in mind that tuning isn't done yet, so those disc numbers may go down. Also, when considering all of the ramifications of disc stacking, they will probably make the damage less and increase the conversion of damage to healing via attonement. This was already discussed before.

[Deleted]

What? not sure if you're talking about actual hps, or pure hps. But, as far as pure healing goes, as pospospos mentioned, disc IS at the bottom of every HPS chart. There's a reason druids can hit up to 350k hps on farm, while disc can only hit 250k.




I don't really understand what you're talking about with those numbers. In what world does a disc priest, or a healer in general(since healers in general do some very nice deeps in legion) does 70% as much damage as a DPS? I mean, we have a lot of numbers already from the raid testing, you don't have to make up your own. Actual dps classes are ranging anywhere from 150k-350k. While disc priests are lagging at around 50k-90k. Not really sure that 10 discs would ever be able to beat 10 dps in terms of pure dmg+utility. I can definitely see you dropping a throughput healer in favor of a second disc for the extra dps on fights like the Heart of Corruption. However, as far as swapping a whole dps(when you usually want as much dps as possible during progression) seems kind of silly.

Numbers don't matter at this point in time and there's no sense in looking at those at all.

Perhaps Disc wouldn't do 70% the damage of a damage-dealer and that'd be good, obviously. It just depends on the ratio of DPS to healing in comparison to pure DPS and healer classes and that we won't know, again, until the first tuning pass. That's why all I can do is speculate. Blizzard has said time and again that all DPS numbers should be ignored.

The point of my post obviously wasn't that those are the exact numbers, it's that if the ratios end up in that ballpark stacking Discs will be the way to go, which isn't exactly desirable.

[Deleted]

Hey boys, I am reading your thoughts on disc, and the discussions are always interesting to follow. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts. While I am more concentrated on playing my Holy priest, I am trying to keep up to date with Discipline. Can someone provide any logs of Holy+Disc priest healing on alpha raid testing?

While I understand there is a huge difference between the play style, but as a lonely priest in my guild I am looking for the best spec to play during progress. While it is early to say which one will be mandatory in a way, I am at least looking into comparing performance at this stage.

Thank you in advance

Happy priesting

[Juicyjonny]

Okay, I am struggling with the Disc Priest concept and I have been reading everyones post. I am confused as to how I would be healing in a 20 man situation and how I would be healing in a 5 man situation.

I have played every single healer in Mythic raiding setting and I am aware of how disc priest healing is currently on Live but with this attonement setup and the very low timer on the attonement buff I don't get what is the best way to heal?

I do have Legion so I have been playing around with every single ability and trying to optimize it for the highest HPS. I want the highest HPS.

When do I use Plea? When do I power word shield?
Do I only use Rapture when LOTS OF AOE is going out? After I press Rapture and bubble as many people as possible do I immediately start DPSing? What DPS spells would I use FIRST to get the most amount of healing onto all the targets that I just bubbled in the shortest amount of time before Attonement runs out?
If there are lots of adds out and lots of AOE healing required do I shadow wordain everything? Is that necessary?
When do I use shadow mending?
When do I use their new AOE heal?
What is the best amount of Attonment buffs I should have most of the time? 1 target? 3 targets? 5 targets? all 20 targets?

[Melchey]

When do I use Plea? When do I power word shield?
Do I only use Rapture when LOTS OF AOE is going out? After I press Rapture and bubble as many people as possible do I immediately start DPSing? What DPS spells would I use FIRST to get the most amount of healing onto all the targets that I just bubbled in the shortest amount of time before Attonement runs out?
If there are lots of adds out and lots of AOE healing required do I shadow wordain everything? Is that necessary?
When do I use shadow mending?
When do I use their new AOE heal?
What is the best amount of Attonment buffs I should have most of the time? 1 target? 3 targets? 5 targets? all 20 targets?

You had to ask just before a build drops, so hopefully nothing major changes to invalidate anything.

1. Plea is best used to get atonements on as many people as possible as cheaply as possible. From like 1-7 active atonements out it's the cheapest way to spend mana for an atonement buff, which afterwards other spells like Smend and radiance are more efficient. Treat plea as a "i need an atonement buff and only the buff" because the heal is pretty low compared to other spells. PW:S is basically how it was in WoD, just not spammable. Put it on your tanks, targets going to take a lot of damage over a period of time b/c atonement buff following, or just absorb buffer. Basically use "on CD".

2. Rapture can be best used to prepare for AoE damage similar to Spirit Shell in MoP, or during if you need it (though it's 'weaker'). It's a way to get a headstart on AoE damage because absorbs and then you'd follow with your DPS spells when the damage goes out. As far as DPS spells, Penance should be the first thing you consider when you want to heal up your atonements, it's super powerful. You'd also want to have your shadowfiend/mindbender out before the aoe goes out so it'll heal when the damage is out. You should also have your SW:P/PtW on the mob(s). Smite is your filler. Add in Light's Wrath/Schism as appropriate.
3. It's super good to do it, but you'd probably find life easier with Purge the Wicked since it frees up globals due to the DoT cleave on Penance.
4. Shadowmend is best used to actually heal up targets consistently taking damage or are low enough that any incoming damage could kill, since it has high base healing (700+) and you can follow up with some atonement. It's pretty cheap, efficient, and if you can 'game' the dot following it's super powerful.
5. You use radiance to apply more atonements to the raid faster than plea spamming. The heal is kinda weak but not entirely ignorable, but if you're aim is as many atonements just apply as necessary.
6. Depends on the fight. You'd prob want it on at least tank(s), and then knowing how the fight works apply to people who will take damage/are taking damage. On a fight with constant aoe damage, probably anywhere from 7-13 is good and isn't super mana draining. You can go higher though.

[Yunzi]

From the current set of legendary legion items there are two very good ones - Cord of Maiev, Priestess of the Moon and N'ero, Band of Promises. The former defines our rotation to a previous alpha build's - we cast Smite directly after Penance.

With the Cord of Maiev, we now have a 70% chance of casting two consecutive damage spells and a 30% chance of casting at least four consecutive damage spells - Penance > Smite > Penance > Smite. Because of the "long" sequence of damage spells, it feels like our rotation is shaping up to alternate between a few consecutive atonement applicators followed by a few consecutive damage spells (beginning when Penance is off CD), and then back to atonement applicators when our damage sequence is played out.

This two-fold rotation helps our rhythm - we're not constantly switching back and forth between applying atonements and doing damage. When Revelation does not proc and we end our Penance > Smite sequence, we check for any other useful damage abilities, such as SWP or PtW, before returning to a few atonement applicators.

Schism is awkward, since it has a 6 second cooldown while Penance is 9 seconds and Purge the Wicked 10 seconds, but it plays well into the two-fold style - we begin a damage sequence with Schism directly followed by Penance and then Smite (if Corded). Then when our damage sequence is over, we don't bother to refresh Schism since we'll spend the next 6 seconds or so reapplying atonements.

[Juicyjonny]

Perfect! Thank you so much.

Not sure if I am reading it correctly but when you take Purge the Wicked and it spreads is it only one additional target?

[Melchey]

Perfect! Thank you so much.

Not sure if I am reading it correctly but when you take Purge the Wicked and it spreads is it only one additional target?

No problem. Happy to answer any questions.

And Purge the Wicked spreads to one target per Penance, so if you had the legendary that resets Penance on smite cast you could theoretically have a lot of dots out, but without it you'll see 2-3 applications at a given time. It can also spread to a target that has the dot (but might favor ones without?) so a 2 target boss fight means you can keep up the dots through penance only.

[Meanshield]

1 cast of Radiance puts Atonement on two players. How is this going to be useful in a raid? Seems shit to me.

[Deleted]

1 cast of Radiance puts Atonement on two players. How is this going to be useful in a raid? Seems shit to me.

Go read the tooltip again.

[Deleted]

How do you think DPriest will do in pvp?

He sounds ridiculously OP in small scale.