Should Blizzard release Vanilla servers?

[Okacz]

Jesus. I've had to post this shit so many times, I'm going to go nuts:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post39760205

Your estimations assume way bigger uptime cost that it should. First, the team is way larger now, so maybe new people wouldn't be required at all. Secondly... what developers, really? We're talking here about just a "trip to the past" project, that would be not developed in any meaningful way. We don't need the same legion of GMs as we do in retail, this is a side project, people go and play at their own risk, so to say - and this is the way many enjoy it now, so it seems. And finding all those assets and code... I'm no genious here, but all companies I've worked in (as in... 2) kept their software versioned ALL THE TIME. There is no reason not to keep every single version of your releases. And I mean companies that hired like, 10 people. So what, would Blizzard have lower standards all of a sudden?

And you estimate 20k players... I'm not sure about this, but multiply this by 5. At least. That's my estimate for players who would gladly return to the game they once loved, who would leave private servers (there is more than a second WoW playerbase among those) to play on a working, safe and secure server, even paying a small fee every month. This isn't a thing we will be able to see for ourselves anytime soon, but with 3 first releases of the game (vanilla, bc, WotLK) being availible for playing, 100k players might be the number we're looking for at least.

[Shibito]

They wont as they said they want the game moving forward, maybe in the future when they run out of expansion ideas

[noobstar]

I'd pay for it if they simply released vanilla wow exactly for how it was in 2004, I feel if blizzard brought vanilla into 2016 it would have DDO's (dungeons&dragons) cash shop on top of the sub because they know they can't sell us on expansions so they would sell us quest packs. It's amazing that one private server has become such a massive revolution, just about any game site is on the topic, MLG commentator/host and Lawyers on twitter, Huge twitch/youtube identities with massive followings,. Word of mouth made WoW what it was back then and it's just as effective today, Nost is a testament to that. The petition they started 5 days ago already has 77,464 and climbing signers.

[Darsithis]

Your estimations assume way bigger uptime cost that it should. First, the team is way larger now, so maybe new people wouldn't be required at all. Secondly... what developers, really? We're talking here about just a "trip to the past" project, that would be not developed in any meaningful way. We don't need the same legion of GMs as we do in retail, this is a side project, people go and play at their own risk, so to say - and this is the way many enjoy it now, so it seems. And finding all those assets and code... I'm no genious here, but all companies I've worked in (as in... 2) kept their software versioned ALL THE TIME. There is no reason not to keep every single version of your releases. And I mean companies that hired like, 10 people. So what, would Blizzard have lower standards all of a sudden?

Yes, developers are needed, and yes, they'd probably have to hire more because otherwise they'd be taking away from their current team and slowing down retail. As they've said, they don't want to do that. Even if they didn't, you still have to factor in the cost of each of those developers on those teams. You can't just rebuild an old client without developers, engineers, and project management.

As for versioning, Blizzard has said they have a repository (as do we, we use Github) but that portions of the code have been lost, and that which isn't is incompatible with today's hardware. Before you say "no, that isn't true", yes, it is. There is a game series called Geneforge from 2002 - 2008 that plays like crap on Windows 7 and higher because DirectDraw support was removed (there is a workaround but it requires programming knowledge). All it takes is one tiny supported thing from the operating system or the graphics card to completely screw up the game.

And you estimate 20k players... I'm not sure about this, but multiply this by 5. At least. That's my estimate for players who would gladly return to the game they once loved, who would leave private servers (there is more than a second WoW playerbase among those) to play on a working, safe and secure server, even paying a small fee every month. This isn't a thing we will be able to see for ourselves anytime soon, but with 3 first releases of the game (vanilla, bc, WotLK) being availible for playing, 100k players might be the number we're looking for at least.

The 20k comes from the active, concurrent players on Nostalrius. I don't know how many would actually return, but clearly Blizzard doesn't feel it would be enough.

[taliey]

Depends on the gross profit margin and the segment profit margin and the common costs.

[Seranthor]

Jesus. I've had to post this shit so many times, I'm going to go nuts:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post39760205

Those that disagree with you aren't opening to listening to you, so they will continue to insist (without facts) that Blizzard can and should do it (for insert reasons), and that they (those that want it) shouldn't have to pay for it unless they chose to.

[CaptainV]

Unless you want WoW to go F2P then no, its expensive enough and difficult enough to keep managing 3-5 million people on one version of the game, WoW 2 is more likely than Vanillia Servers.

[Deleted]

Almost 50% of the 600 poll voters would like to see a blizzard classic server, and I bet the other 150k active players who played on the nostalrius server would vote yes, players that play on private servers, on top of the people who quit the game long ago would also vote yes.

As a rough estimate if blizzard were to start up a couple of classic servers they would be full within a dew days, and the demand would be through the roof.

And I speculate there is a playerbase of around 1.5m players who would play on a classic realm. If blizzard hosted them.

[Kallisto]

Jesus. I've had to post this shit so many times, I'm going to go nuts:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post39760205

I wouldn't bother, it isn't that they don't realise. It's that they are so single minded they don't care and nothing except "Oh they can just C&P it." is going to be acceptable to them. It's almost fanaticism levels of delusion.

[Seranthor]

Almost 50% of the 600 poll voters would like to see a blizzard classic server, and I bet the other 150k active players who played on the nostalrius server would vote yes, players that play on private servers, on top of the people who quit the game long ago would also vote yes.

As a rough estimate if blizzard were to start up a couple of classic servers they would be full within a dew days, and the demand would be through the roof.

And I speculate there is a playerbase of around 1.5m players who would play on a classic realm. If blizzard hosted them.

Well, crowdfund the startup cash, wave it at Blizzard and you'll probably be on your way to vanilla servers.

[Okacz]

Yes, developers are needed, and yes, they'd probably have to hire more because otherwise they'd be taking away from their current team and slowing down retail. As they've said, they don't want to do that. Even if they didn't, you still have to factor in the cost of each of those developers on those teams. You can't just rebuild an old client without developers, engineers, and project management.

As for versioning, Blizzard has said they have a repository (as do we, we use Github) but that portions of the code have been lost, and that which isn't is incompatible with today's hardware. Before you say "no, that isn't true", yes, it is. There is a game series called Geneforge from 2002 - 2008 that plays like crap on Windows 7 and higher because DirectDraw support was removed (there is a workaround but it requires programming knowledge). All it takes is one tiny supported thing from the operating system or the graphics card to completely screw up the game.

All good points, but I'm talking about scale. The process of recreating the version of WoW to current software capabilities is will surely require work of a large amount of people to be good and done quickly, but it's one time job, compared to constant release of new code/assets from the rest of the team. Hence it wouldn't cost all that much. I'm just saying this considering the fact that Nostalrius was not a one time thing, there are lots of servers where just a few fans managed to recrete the experiance of past expansions pretty well, without all the things Blizzard can just access from their old version.

Why would portions of the code be lost? Honest question, I'm not too big in this stuff, but I can't imagine that even in times where Github/Perforce/even Google Drive werent a thing large portions of the code would simply vaporize. Large companies with lots of previous projects shouldn't just accidentally delete or forget to store it, right?

The 20k comes from the active, concurrent players on Nostalrius. I don't know how many would actually return, but clearly Blizzard doesn't feel it would be enough.

Only Nostalrius. There are many other different private servers, blizzlike or not. This is of course pure speculation, but one thing is clear, people are clearly interested in playing past WoW even without stable servers, playerbase or knowledge that your character won't suddenly dissappear.

[Deleted]

Those that disagree with you aren't opening to listening to you, so they will continue to insist (without facts) that Blizzard can and should do it (for insert reasons), and that they (those that want it) shouldn't have to pay for it unless they chose to.

Are you serious? he have experience and he gave his point of view on the matter, where are the facts? blizzard could say that legacy server will be ok when pigs will fly but just because they're saying that it doesnt mean that is true nor a fact.
The only way to prove if it works or not is to try, its like the Schrodinger cat, otherwise the controversy will go on and looking at numbers, with the 48% of the mmoC community supporting the idea that is doable

[ls-]

Jesus. I've had to post this shit so many times, I'm going to go nuts:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post39760205

OMG, you wrote another one? Damn... Many people here really like cherry picking.

It's really funny how people say, that it's IMPOSSIBLE to fix big health pools, if they go beyond 32bit int limit again, and then same people say, it's not a biggie to fix 12yo piece of software.

[spikeh]

Your estimations assume way bigger uptime cost that it should. First, the team is way larger now, so maybe new people wouldn't be required at all. Secondly... what developers, really? We're talking here about just a "trip to the past" project, that would be not developed in any meaningful way. We don't need the same legion of GMs as we do in retail, this is a side project, people go and play at their own risk, so to say - and this is the way many enjoy it now, so it seems. And finding all those assets and code... I'm no genious here, but all companies I've worked in (as in... 2) kept their software versioned ALL THE TIME. There is no reason not to keep every single version of your releases. And I mean companies that hired like, 10 people. So what, would Blizzard have lower standards all of a sudden?

And you estimate 20k players... I'm not sure about this, but multiply this by 5. At least. That's my estimate for players who would gladly return to the game they once loved, who would leave private servers (there is more than a second WoW playerbase among those) to play on a working, safe and secure server, even paying a small fee every month. This isn't a thing we will be able to see for ourselves anytime soon, but with 3 first releases of the game (vanilla, bc, WotLK) being availible for playing, 100k players might be the number we're looking for at least.

Have you tried to compile a large multi-million LOC project that's 11 years old? Just "having the source" is not enough.

The compilation toolchain, target OS, library deps and so on would have changed.

Keeping your 10 person company's project in check with git is different to a large piece of commercial software that has thousands of engineers working on it at once. I can totally believe that some release branches may be lost, or some changes between releases be lost.

It's not one time work either. Any changes to the retail client or server will need to be mirrored for the legacy client. That's another batch of development, testing, release that demands time.

Not saying it's impossible, just that most people vastly underestimate the amount of effort it would require. Blizzard obviously thinks the cost to benefit ratio is too low to bother. I don't feel strongly for or against legacy, if they do happen I would certainly dabble in it for a while.

[Deleted]

Should they? I don't personally care. Will they? No. It's too expensive for the dozens of reasons already covered in dozens of threads dozens of times. No matter how many times you post how soulless you think the game is, how awful you think the game is, and how much better you think classic was, doesn't change the immense cost and time investment that Blizzard simply isn't interested in.

Sorry.

Today's state of the game is bad.What made it great back then it was the people you played with.It wasn't raining loot from every corner of the world like it is today.You had to work with others to achieve something and that was the great thing in it.Today you just queue up for everything and wait to collect your loot.Everything is handed to you,and that's the reason game is dying.There's not really working together anymore.I remember first time killing Ragnaros and Nefarian in Vanilla and people were just happy to kill it and loot didn't matter.Yelling on TS when they finally fallen down /1 also got spammed ,posing for screenshots after and hanging in Ironforge around campfire and talking after the raid.Those are the memories what people miss.PvP is beyond horrible now.it's not about player vs player its player vs flags(or other objectives)so they can win and go buy gear.Whole system is bad,you don't spend time killing each other anymore instead you go and try to defend bunch of flags or gates.

Miss the old AV and bgs where people actually did PVP and not ignore each other in bgs.Doing AV now vs then it just makes me sad to see 40 people just pass each other instead of clashing in the middle and start beating each other.

The so called talent trees...what were they thinking...They removed perfectly fine trees and instead of adding new spells and adjusting them to new expansions they remove spells from specs and put them only useable in some.Removed the spells from one spec and then they force you to chose from three that you already had to a choice of having only one spell.What on earth is up with that.

You can defend blizzard all you want but they have made this game worse.

[Seranthor]

Are you serious? he have experience and he gave his point of view on the matter, where are the facts? blizzard could say that legacy server will be ok when pigs will fly but just because they're saying that it doesnt mean that is true nor a fact.
The only way to prove if it works or not is to try, its like the Schrodinger cat, otherwise the controversy will go on and looking at numbers, with the 48% of the mmoC community supporting the idea that is doable

Or, you or another vanilla supporter could try and crowdfund it and then show Blizzard that it IS in fact worth the effort, cause tears and tantrums aint gonna get it.

[Deleted]

cause tears and tantrums aint gonna get it.

Instead, telling people to stop asking for those servers, because *insert X opinions, is making them stop right?

But you had a good idea, my only question is, even if we get some money running and blizzard say no, who keeps the money? how will work?

[vesuviouz]

Would i pay for one separately, probably not, that would mean two subs. would i pay perhaps a little more for my current sub if they added legacy, probably not either.

would i pay my same sub but they add legacy. yes definitely.

[Seranthor]

Instead, telling people to stop asking for those servers, because *insert X opinions, is making them stop right?

But you had a good idea, my only question is, even if we get some money running and blizzard say no, who keeps the money? how will work?

Good question, I'd say return the money to those that donated. It certainly cant hurt the cause to try and crowdfund it... or, pay some kind of licensing agreement with Blizzard. Point is, there HAS to be a way to get from where you are now (no legal vanilla) to where you want to go (legal vanilla).

[Okacz]

Have you tried to compile a large multi-million LOC project that's 11 years old? Just "having the source" is not enough.

The compilation toolchain, target OS, library deps and so on would have changed.

Keeping your 10 person company's project in check with git is different to a large piece of commercial software that has thousands of engineers working on it at once. I can totally believe that some release branches may be lost, or some changes between releases be lost.

It's not one time work either. Any changes to the retail client or server will need to be mirrored for the legacy client. That's another batch of development, testing, release that demands time.

Not saying it's impossible, just that most people vastly underestimate the amount of effort it would require. Blizzard obviously thinks the cost to benefit ratio is too low to bother. I don't feel strongly for or against legacy, if they do happen I would certainly dabble in it for a while.

Fair enough. I'm not that into IT to know how much time and effort this would take, still the fact that groups of WoW fans are able to make a stable server is a hint that this might not be that excruciating task for a multimillion dollar company.