Vanilla Talent System

[Raiju]

So, yes. It does hold water. In WOTLK, I remember learning how to spec and then not touching the spec tree until a new patch came along and changed things enough to warrant spending points differently.

This was because respeccing was inconvenient & expensive - the tomes addition is not a function of the new talent system, it's just an addition that could equally apply to the old one.

[whyohwhy]

I started in Wrath and the Vanilla talent system was still there. One level has never taken me 10 hours. I don't know what game you're playing now, but leveling takes AGES and is incredibly disheartening when you don't earn anything worthwhile for like half of 100 levels. Leveling alts isn't fun anymore. I think a better talent system like the one from Vanilla would make leveling more enjoyable. I don't think your other point about cookie cutter specs holds water anymore- the raiders are still going to have the optimal specs, and if you don't want to do that just do LFR or start your own guild. For me, I'm much more interested in pvp and more talent options would make that part of the game more interesting.

Oh right so you have no idea how it was in vanilla and the years of work it took to balance everything (to the point it was at. this game has never been balanced but it's better off than it was back then). I mean maybe you might have some idea with death knights and how imbalanced they were during wrath but imagine that for every class.

I think they could definitely add more talents to the lvling process but taking it back to the vanilla talent tree would be a huge leap backwards in game design. Having a new talent every 10 lvls would be much better.

PVP balance is an even more important reason to have specs which are more easily balanced vs. convoluted spec trees. The old system is bad and while the new system isn't perfect it's a lot better than it was. While the old talent trees did peak in wrath it took so long to get there and adding the death knights to the game through everything into chaos for more than a year or two.

omg lvling does not take ages now. Levelling alts is a lot easier now than it was i mean ~15 days played was not the amount of time i wanted to spend lvling up another character.

[Queen of Hamsters]

This was because respeccing was inconvenient & expensive - the tomes addition is not a function of the new talent system, it's just an addition that could equally apply to the old one.

No, it was because there was a PERFECT spec and a WRONG spec, and if you chose the PERFECT spec, you had no reason to go back and change anything unless a patch made changes to balancing.

I'll keep the system of having several viable options that change how I play/my functionality over spending points in a heap of passives just to get to the few talents that matter, thank you very much. The new system isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better and more engaging than the old talent trees ever were (unless you were not bothered with performance and just specced as you pleased).

[Raiju]

Oh right so you have no idea how it was in vanilla and the years of work it took to balance everything. I mean maybe you might have some idea with death knights and how imbalanced they were during wrath but imagine that for every class.

If this were true (given both DK's and monks were effectively balanced within the expansions they were added) then TBC should've been equally balanced.

Oh wait not, that wasn't the design goal and blizzard stated that numerous times.

No Rorcanna, there were better talents for different optimization such as aoe, survival etc. That's why most guides said "These 15-20 points are optional, but we recommend putting in these slots". You didn't change them because it was inconvenient. Some people did regardless.

[Queen of Hamsters]

If this were true (given both DK's and monks were effectively balanced within the expansions they were added) then TBC should've been equally balanced.

Oh wait not, that wasn't the design goal and blizzard stated that numerous times.

No Rorcanna, there were better talents for different optimization such as aoe, survival etc. That's why most guides said "These 15-20 points are optional, but we recommend putting in these slots". You didn't change them because it was inconvenient. Some people did regardless.

No, you didn't change because there was an optimal and suboptimal build based on theorycrafting and the content that was to be tackled.

[whyohwhy]

If this were true (given both DK's and monks were effectively balanced within the expansions they were added) then TBC should've been equally balanced.

Oh wait not, that wasn't the design goal and blizzard stated that numerous times.

No Rorcanna, there were better talents for different optimization such as aoe, survival etc. That's why most guides said "These 15-20 points are optional, but we recommend putting in these slots". You didn't change them because it was inconvenient. Some people did regardless.

Yeah Death knights were not properly balanced in wrath at all.

Obviously you do not remember how tedious things were in vanilla/BC. DAE not miss going in circles farming mats so you could do some multiplayer content?

[Raiju]

Using the same logic you should NEVER be changing your talents now, because there is an optimal and suboptimal build based on theorycrafting and the content to be tackled.

Except this isn't true because you don't need to just go with the best overall build thanks to tomes. You can go for the stronger aoe option on aoe fights, you can make yourself more survival orientated in fights where you may get little to no healing at periods, etc.

And both of these things were available both currently and in the old talent trees. The only difference is we didn't have tomes (or the passive gold income we have now) to cheaply & conveniently switch between fights. Respeccing was costly if you were doing it multiple times a week and time-wasting if you had to be re-summoned after switching - something the vast majority of people didn't do because once upon a time people sitting with multiple thousands of gold wasn't a thing outside of the very rich.

@whyohwhy by 3.3 DK's were effectively balanced. They were no longer dominating all relevant pvp, they were not the top melee and were not the best tanks. They were balanced.

Your farming comment is completely irrelevant - I was explaining tomes are an addition to the system, and could just as easily be applied to the old system for the same benefits. It highlights that arguments about swapping (which I repeat, a minority did EVERY WEEK) are invalid, as the convenient respeccing is not tied to the talent system itself.

[whyohwhy]

Using the same logic you should NEVER be changing your talents now, because there is an optimal and suboptimal build based on theorycrafting and the content to be tackled.

Except this isn't true because you don't need to just go with the best overall build thanks to tomes. You can go for the stronger aoe option on aoe fights, you can make yourself more survival orientated in fights where you may get little to no healing at periods, etc.

And both of these things were available both currently and in the old talent trees. The only difference is we didn't have tomes (or the passive gold income we have now) to cheaply & conveniently switch between fights. Respeccing was costly if you were doing it multiple times a week and time-wasting if you had to be re-summoned after switching - something the vast majority of people didn't do because once upon a time people sitting with multiple thousands of gold wasn't a thing outside of the very rich.

@whyohwhy by 3.3 DK's were effectively balanced. They were no longer dominating all relevant pvp, they were not the top melee and were not the best tanks. They were balanced.

Your farming comment is completely irrelevant - I was explaining tomes are an addition to the system, and could just as easily be applied to the old system for the same benefits. It highlights that arguments about swapping (which I repeat, a minority did EVERY WEEK) are invalid, as the convenient respeccing is not tied to the talent system itself.

Your argument is very boring. if you want to spend time playing with your UI you should play EVE or something. I prefer spending time actually playing with my friends.

[Arcangel14]

Just wanting to hear opinions, I personally think the current Talent System is over simplified and gives us much less diverse characters, but I know a lot of people complained about the Vanilla system being too complex, even though it gave us a TON of different combos and diversity.

I'm trying to make a basic MMO, and am planning on a talent system similar to Vanilla's where you get points each level up to spend wherever you want on the different trees (with tiers that unlock)

What do you guys prefer now? Current, vanillas, or a different rendition?

Huh. Did you play vanilla? It did NOT give a ton of combo's or diversity... lol

Each class was basically assigned a specific role, otherwise you were very sub-par.

And before people try and say "yeah but during Naxx/AQ40 I/we had a Ret Pally/Enh Sham/Feral druid tank/etc", that doesn't really count as it was due to the gear, which 99% of people did not have. Therefore, for the average player, you had next to no choice on the role you wanted, and had to be a certain class to do certain roles.

Vanilla talent system was a good starting point, but would not work anymore. There will always be cookie-cutter builds that are better than everything else with that system.

[Raiju]

Your argument is very boring. if you want to spend time playing with your UI you should play EVE or something. I prefer spending time actually playing with my friends.

I usually use an addon for the current system anyway so I don't see why I wouldn't for an old one. Granted it takes 10 seconds longer for you to switch without one - but then all the positives such as the immersion for those who appreciate it are added in surely outweigh that

[darklogrus]

The system now isn't much better, I think I have just as much a cookie cutter build now as I did back in Wrath. I have 3 passives, 2 talents I rarely use and 2 Dps focused.

[Yassy]

I raid mythic every week, and I change my talents based on how I'll be playing for a certain fight. I change glyphs based on the encounter. I use other talents when solo or even suboptimal ones on alts where I cba to min max. I stock every fresh 100 with 20 tomes, they all run out of tomes eventually. No raider worth his title ignores the fact that certain talent choices can be more or less useful depending on the fight/your role in that fight.

Just because the cookie cutter changes every fight, doesnt remove the cookie cutter. Change does not equal choice. That is the illusion the current talent system gives to players. You change your talents so frequently, you get an illusion of choice.

The choice is, has been, and always will be, Optimal vs Sub optimal. No talent system will ever fix that. No game has ever succeeded in that. It will not ever happen. That shitty choice argument holds no water anymore and never has.

Talents should be designed to fill in weaknesses and to give players the ability to maximize their performance in their role. Both systems did this. The biggest difference between the two is that now you don't have to see a trainer to do it with the new one.

[Deleted]

You think ?? nooo .... In 2005 MMO like WOW was new and most of the people that play the game at that time didn't think about any of this , we play the game for fun .And BTW there was maybe 3 websites that have any clue about MMO in 2005.

Maybe you didn't, but lots of people did and there were places to get info:

https://www.google.co.uk/trends/expl...tz=Etc%2FGMT-1

ThottBot was what I used during Vanilla to level (wow was my first proper MMO) and you can see while not as popular, Allakhazam had a wow section that I remember looking at too. I've included wowhead as it helps to show just how big Thott was at the time.

[samus]

Just wanting to hear opinions, I personally think the current Talent System is over simplified and gives us much less diverse characters, but I know a lot of people complained about the Vanilla system being too complex, even though it gave us a TON of different combos and diversity.

I'm trying to make a basic MMO, and am planning on a talent system similar to Vanilla's where you get points each level up to spend wherever you want on the different trees (with tiers that unlock)

What do you guys prefer now? Current, vanillas, or a different rendition?

I really liked the old talent trees. The real reason for the random tiny talents was simple. It kept you leveling. It was your reward for getting to the next level.

[Desparil]

New one is way better. With old i specced once on tier start and forget about it until next tuning patch, today i change talents on encounter basis and choices are actually meaningful and not will i have +1% crit or 1% wanking. Only benefit of old one is that it gave you some sense of progression during leveling...but i always hated leveling no mater what so i couldnt care less about it.

[Auggers]

It was not diverse, it had the same cookie cutter talents style which we have today. Best thing to do is just get rid of the talent system.

[Addict]

I really liked the old talent trees. The real reason for the random tiny talents was simple. It kept you leveling. It was your reward for getting to the next level.

mm yeah, the urge for that 1% hit for 3 lvls straight was keeping me going

[Deleted]

With respect for vanilla overall, and disrespect for the currrent state of the game, I must say that vanilla talent system was BAD IN EVERY F**KING WAY.

[Swanea]

I think since leveling actually took time and grinding and SOME effort, the talent point was a reward. Yes, I know. +1% crit on holy spells, WOW! But not I'm only two points from a great ability. Sure, many of the talents were terrible (like some are currently.....), but it was still rewarding progression.

Now leveling you don't even look. Just push forward till you get a new ability on your bar and smash it until the next ability appears.

The new system is exactly the same. You even get to select passives. Except you only do it 7 times instead of every level.

[natpick]

@rimm you didnt play vanilla did you.