Blizzard; Can you built some alternative NINJA LOOT protection into the game PLZ?

[Eleccybubb]

Problem is can the ml be trusted not to take the gear himself or distribute it to friends. Its catch 22 sometimes.

And that is why you only use it for trusted groups or make your own group. The OP is overreacting and choosing to implement tools that don't need to be implemented. Also if you chose willingly to go to a group that reserved stuff and you knew this and read the description well that's on you.

[Amerissis]

/roll 1000-10000. Oh, I win.
/change spec before rolling. Oh, I can roll.

Can't even think of an example to abuse main spec roll, because there is no way to determine main spec in game, so no way to restrict rolling against it.

But I take it you want excitement, yes? Seeing you use the word in about every sentence. May I suggest bungeejumping or paragliding? Getting excitement in a game based on the size of a loot window is kind of... pointless.

[LairenyX]

And again no. (5) Master looter serves it's purpose. Use personal loot in the Group Finder or join a group using it. (4) You chose willingly to join an ML group so you knew the risks. (6) The level of distrust is on your end. You have 3 remedies to your situation that work. (1) One join a guild and raid with them for loot, (2) create your own personal loot group and (3) finally create your own master loot group. And changing the name will not make anyone think of it as anything different. The idea is that you have a master of loot whom assigns it to players based on a simple /roll or whomever it is a better upgrade for. You are basically trying to keep a system the same but add your own personal gripes into it which does not work. I hate master loot as much as the next person which is why I only use it with friends or guildies and personal for pugs as I said.

(1) One join a guild and raid with them for loot.
-Nobody likes down time of 3 days between raids. Everyone likes raiding on demand so Group Finder

(2) create your own personal loot group.
-Personal Loot is dangerous and cannot be used

(3) finally create your own master loot group.
-Pretty much everyone don't like the responsibility and pressure of raid leading or something, I think. Ratio of raid leaders to performers is like 1:18 or something.

So we know so far that nobody likes to wait 3 days to raid, and they don't like leading, so the best option for them would be to dive into the Group Finder where they can raid whenever they want and join a group because they don't like the responsibility of leading. When they're in the Group Finder, PL is not an option because it is dangerous. So the only thing left is:

(4) You chose willingly to join an ML group so you knew the risks
(5) Master looter serves it's purpose

Which I counter in post #54:

You don't understand. Your talk of players being forced to do this and that, i.e player should have a choice of PL or ML, is irrelevant because PL is dangerous and needs to be completely removed from the game. It is dangerous. I am interested in player experiencing ONLY the ML because it is the maximum loot experience, I'm talking more general players and not the lesser-in-number-players.

I get that you don't want to be forced onto ML and want to have the option of picking PL, but this is no good because PL is dangerous. "Don't Presume Every Other Players Feel the Same Way"? Do every other players know that PL is dangerous, and they're just experiencing it without knowing it's dangerous but still get harmed by it anyways? since group might be biased towards PL due to the convenient of no roll and no loot assignment? and then people just experience empty windows 90% of the time or an underwhelming 1 piece 10% of the other time?

The DE is good because it is fair and ensure the loot experience is at maximum. This is what makes people want to tell their friends about the game.

If we assume PL is auto removed because it is dangerous, the only discussion left would be your preference to want to be able to do off-spec rolls, i.e 1+3, but this has the baggage of 4 friends rolling Ninja Looting. If you want to do off-spec roll then roll with your guild, or a group of all closest friends. If you want to go into the Group Finder and do off-spec rolls then you contrast directly against me and MY FEAR of being ninja by 4 friends rolling. If I am diving into the Group Finder, I want to have the choice to pick 1+2 so I do not have to fear 4 friends rolling and Ninja Looting me.

If you say I should just pick the group in the Group Finder who has the 1+2 rule and let some have the option to create groups with 1+3 without any mandatory votes, then it gets into this situation where a majority of groups do not state the loot rule in the title, they just have the advertised name of the run, and as well as there being no "established standard of loot rules". When you join any group and ask for loot rule, they will just say "MS>OS", and this means absolutely nothing, and then if you attempt to ask further for clarification, it makes things awkward, feeling like things are made hassle and complicated, it's just silence, you might get kicked, and it's just inefficient and unpractical to ask every time and dread these outcomes and with so much uncertainty if it's just silence, maybe the leader is just trying to add people and not paying attention to chat? who knows. So it's just:

1) Open Group Finder
2) See title of group advertisement without loot rules stated in title
3) Join
4) Ask for loot rule, get: "MS>OS"
5) Awkward and unpractical to ask for clarification as it'll just lead to silence, fear of confrontation, feeling like things are made harder, maybe kicking, or just uncertainty.

Any average players in the public pugs in the Group Finder will simply join, sit through a run, kill bosses, try to roll, without the hassle of asking and fear of confrontation. If they get ninja, it's whatever. If they get upset, they go on forums, who knows how many people actually go, if not they just experience something very unpleasant and who knows where that lead? they might just repeat the pugs of uncertainty despite being ninjaed cause they can get over it.

If we let you have the ability to do 1+3 then this uncertainty and impracticality and fear of confrontation is the only result. People join, kill boss, boss drop loot, then get ninja or not. It's a dice roll. If Blizzard want to let people do 1+3 in return for uncertainty for all in the age of the Group Finder, that's fine.

However, if they want to forego the people who want the ability to do 1+3 in the GF and opt for mandatory votes then this up the efficiency and certainty for all players, in this landscape of the 2016 Group Finder. You don't have to just sit through a raid and not knowing if you're going to get ninjaed at a certain point or not, everything is fair, and the loot experience is at maximum excitement. You have the confidence your hard work of sitting through a raid, many wipes, and boss kills will have an ensured end of fairness in loot roll and loot excitement I suppose?

Really, it comes down to the question: In the age of the Group Finder, does Blizzard want to let some people do 1+3 and give everyone else, millions, the uncertainty feeling that they might get ninjaed or forego some people who want to do 1+3, let everyone vote, up the efficiency, practicality, certainty, get rid of the fear of confrontation, and up the loot experience to maximum?

IMO I guess it just all comes down to picking one audience over the other I suppose, I think they should pick the "million audience" and put mandatory votes in and forego the "some 1+3 people" instead to serve the MOST people in this new age of the Group Finder in 2016.

-----
At this point, we already know it's going to be ML no matter what as PL is already assumed to be removed. So, the loot experience will still be higher than PL no matter which options is picked. One is just more certainty, more practical, more efficient, and I feel increase the loot experience by maximum for the most people, the other is still higher loot experience, serve people who want 1+3, but results in uncertainty for millions. It's win-win at this point no matter. One is unpleasant for people who want to do 1+3, the other is unpleasant for million of peoples. Just pick I suppose. I think one is still more win than the other.

God, this whole thing feel mad complicated. Bliz should just remove PL and that's it.

Which pretty much say ML leads to uncertainty of ninja looting, as described and then twice with numerical points to emphasize that players don't have a better alternative or tool to counter this uncertainty by being able to distinguish between the type of ML groups and have to deal with confrontation. So I counter your point that:

(4) You chose willingly to join an ML group so you knew the risks
(5) Master looter serves it's purpose

By saying ML ensures a sub-optimal loot experience, of uncertainty of ninja looting and fear of confrontation, instead of a loot experience at maximum excitement and fairness, after all the drudge of wipes etc. Blizzard should forgo people who want to do 1+3, hence ML and hence sub-optimal loot experience, by choosing the LA or LPO instead to serve MILLIONS of people in public Group Finder territory, Group Finder being not private guilds that people are in so they cannot rely on trust for ML.

To which you would counter:

"That's on them"

to which I would counter:

This response is a failure because it ensure people have a sub-optimal experience in WoW. Which then makes it bad for WoW's health.

(1)And that is why you only use it for trusted groups or make your own group. (2)The OP is overreacting and choosing to implement tools that don't need to be implemented. (3)Also if you chose willingly to go to a group that reserved stuff and you knew this and read the description well that's on you.

(1)And that is why you only use it for trusted groups or make your own group.
-People do not like the responsibility of raid leading so they will not make a group so they cannot "use it for trusted groups".
-People will not run with guild so that they can be in a "trusted group" because they don't like 3 days of down time between each raid.

(2)The OP is overreacting and choosing to implement tools that don't need to be implemented.
-This is not an overaction because ML ensure a sub-optimal looting experience so the "implemented tools", LA or LPO, needs to be implemented.

(3)Also if you chose willingly to go to a group that reserved stuff and you knew this and read the description well that's on you.

Since PL is dangerous, and ML is the only option in the GF with no established standard to distinguish between the different type of ML, this will only lead to fear of confrontation in asking and uncertainty of ninja looting.

The response at the end is another failure because it ensure people have an sub-optimal experience in WoW. Which then makes it bad for WoW's health.

[Eleccybubb]

(1) One join a guild and raid with them for loot.
-Nobody likes down time of 3 days between raid. Everyone likes raid on demand so Group Finder

(2) create your own personal loot group.
-Personal Loot is dangerous and cannot be used

(3) finally create your own master loot group.
-Pretty much everyone don't like the responsibility of leading. Ratio of leader to performer is like 1:18 or something.

So we know so far that nobody likes to wait 3 days to raid, and they don't like leading, so the best option for them would be to dive into the Group Finder where they can raid whenever they want and join a group because they don't like the responsibility of leading. When they're in the Group Finder, PL is not an option because it is dangerous. So the only thing left is:

(4) You chose willingly to join an ML group so you knew the risks
(5) Master looter serves it's purpose

Which I counter in post #54:



Which pretty much say ML leads to uncertainty of ninja looting, as described and then twice with numerical points to emphasize that players don't have a better alternative to counter this uncertainty and have to deal with confrontation. So I counter your point that:

(4) You chose willingly to join an ML group so you knew the risks
(5) Master looter serves it's purpose

By saying ML ensures a sub-optimal loot experience, of uncertainty of ninja looting and fear of confrontation, instead of a loot experience at maximum excitement and fairness, after all the drudge of wipes etc. Blizzard should forgo people who want to do 1+3, hence ML and hence sub-optimal loot experience, by choosing the LA or LPO instead to serve MILLIONS of people in public Group Finder territory, Group Finder being not private guilds that people are in so they cannot rely on trust for ML.

To which you would counter:

"That's on them"

to which I would counter:

This response is a failure because it ensure people have an sub-optimal experience in WoW. Which then makes it bad for WoW's health.




(1)And that is why you only use it for trusted groups or make your own group.
-People do not like the responsibility of raid leading so they will not make a group so they cannot "use it for trusted groups".
-People will not run with guild so that they can be in a "trusted group" because they don't like 3 days of down time between each raid.

(2)The OP is overreacting and choosing to implement tools that don't need to be implemented.
-This is not an overaction because ML ensure a sub-optimal looting experience so the "implemented tools", LA and LPO, needs to be implemented.

(3)Also if you chose willingly to go to a group that reserved stuff and you knew this and read the description well that's on you.

Since PL is dangerous, and ML is the only option in the GF with no established standard to distinguish between the different type of ML, this will only lead to fear of confrontation in asking and uncertainty of ninja looting.

The response at the end is another failure because it ensure people have an sub-optimal experience in WoW. Which then makes it bad for WoW's health.

1. No, not everyone does. Do not speak for people as if you know every WoW player.
2. Personal loot is not dangerous. It is used widely in pugs and has proven to be a successful system this expansion after tweaks.
3. Not willing to create a group because you are lazy is your problem. Don't wanna put in some effort to get your gear then don't.

Now stop trying to make a loot system that has worked fine for 11 years out to be like the friggin devil. You have alternatives so use them. If you are too lazy to do so then don't raid. Master loot groups that reserve gear generally say "this item is reserved" in their description. If you chose to ignore that warning then it's on you. So again, Master loot for friends and guildies and Personal for pugs. There are plenty of protections against ninja looting and you not using them is your own fault. Reserve groups have been happening since the dawn of WoW. Hell DBW in ICC was one of the most reserved items in the game because of how amazing the trinket was.

[Flurryfang]

OP, you are way overcomplicating something that is very simple. As a raid leader, you have it very easy with dealing look around with Master Loot. You just inspect the winner of loot, watch if he has the gear and if not, you give him the gear. If he has, you say "no, you dont get it" and give it to the next player. Its very easy.

Any Raid Leader, who does not do this, either don't care about his raiders, which is okay if you do random stuff, or is in league with the NINJA.... There is no system, which can protect you against that.

[Eleccybubb]

OP, you are way overcomplicating something that is very simple. As a raid leader, you have it very easy with dealing look around with Master Loot. You just inspect the winner of loot, watch if he has the gear and if not, you give him the gear. If he has, you say "no, you dont get it" and give it to the next player. Its very easy.

Any Raid Leader, who does not do this, either don't care about his raiders, which is okay if you do random stuff, or is in league with the NINJA.... There is no system, which can protect you against that.

Exactly. But nowadays people say if they've reserved stuff in their PF description so just avoid the group. There are many remedies to deal with these groups.

[Flurryfang]

Exactly. But nowadays people say if they've reserved stuff in their PF description so just avoid the group. There are many remedies to deal with these groups.

The reservation plaque is hopefully something that will go away with the launch of Legion, but yeah, it is not very hard to say no to people reserving gear. Communicating a little with the people you raid, is not that hard either and will often make it easier to get the loot you are after

[LairenyX]

Blizzard, whatever you do bro, whatever you do, just remove PL. That is the important thing. I'd rather get ninjaed 2 or 3 times an expansion, which'll just give me an excuse to go into a raid again anyways, if I get to see a window full of loot every time. This is the super exciting loot experience part if assumed the loot windows also follow the new loot flashlight animation with old glimmer animation mixed in too.

[Eleccybubb]

Blizzard, whatever you do bro, whatever you do, just remove PL. That is the important thing. I'd rather get ninjaed 2 or 3 times an expansion, which'll just give me an excuse to go into a raid again anyways, if I get to see a window full of loot every time. This is the super exciting loot experience part if assumed the loot windows also follow the new loot flashlight animation with old glimmer animation mixed in too.

Why would removing personal loot stop ninja looting? You really are just clutching at straws for your argument at this point.

[LairenyX]

Why would removing personal loot stop ninja looting? You really are just clutching at straws for your argument at this point.

There's just too much miscommunication and misunderstanding going around man.

[Eleccybubb]

There's just too much miscommunication and misunderstanding going around man. Just too much.

Ok so no valid argument. Got it.

[angelflavor]

It's been said more than a few times already, but Personal Loot pretty much does this. Sure it takes away the excitement of "rolling" but in the end does 100% the same thing you where wanting

[Raiju]

personal loot for pugs is great until I'm trying to make a transmog for my dk and need intellect items from siege \o/

[Turtlewithnoshell]

I looooooooove personal loot.

[Deleted]

Remove Master looter from group not marked as guilds, problem solved. You'll get some whine at the beginning from the ones that still want ML for whatever reasons, but they'll die after a while.

[Berengil]

All loot to personal loot, everywhere in the game. No exceptions. Been saying this for awhile.

The fact that uberleet guilds will no longer able to funnel loot to whoever kisses the loot council's behind does not alter my opinion.

[xalenthas]

All loot to personal loot, everywhere in the game. No exceptions. Been saying this for awhile.

The fact that uberleet guilds will no longer able to funnel loot to whoever kisses the loot council's behind does not alter my opinion.

^ This, combined with a boss loot lockout across difficulties

[Sansnom]

But really, it could be honest people who are just rolling their off-spec and rolling on main spec gear or vice versa. Who knows, but let it up to an adrenaline filled game of trust and uncertainty.

Well of course, the Raid Leader, Master Looter, can change rules during mid fight, so that's why you have to LOCK-IT-IN once the party finish forming by pressing a "Submit" button.

What is there to stopping people rolling need on everything? Because that is what happened during MoP LFR. People rolled need and then tried to trade it with other people for pieces that they need.

Sorry if I missed it if you mentioned it.

[Jaylock]

I like not having to state loot rules when forming a group. That way, in case a rare mount or gear that I need drops I can take it without repercussions.

I have taken mounts and gear on several occasions because I specifically didn't state loot rules.

[judgementofantonidas]

I know you have attempted this with the Personal Loot option. I have been a victim of Ninja Looting in WoD, and I'm glad for your attempt. It was a very valiant effort, very valiant, and I want to like it, but unfortunately, I do not think Personal Loot is the right fix. The reason for this is that it's just more exciting to loot the boss and see a small rectangular window pops open with a list of 3-4 or 4-5 pieces of loot listed in order, and you can scroll up and down to see what dropped. This is just a way more exciting loot experience which is so key in an MMORPG. Exciting loot experience. With Personal Loot, you loot the boss, there's an empty window or gold, that's just not very exciting. With Personal Loot, when something does drop, you loot, the window opens, you see 1 piece of loot, it's not very exciting either. It's just not as exciting as seeing a window pops open while you loot and seeing 3-4 or 4-5 pieces of loot drop. It just seems that seeing so much loot drop is just so much more exciting, EVEN IF NONE OF IT IS FOR YOU. It's just more exciting this way. Yes, I know you did that thing where people who won pieces of loot the through Personal Loot option show up in the middle of the screen to show you who you helped progress when they win the loot, but it's just not as exciting as seeing so many pieces of loot drop.

For this reason, I think you should remove Personal Loot and make Master Looting the default option again. I'm grateful for your attempt, but unfortunately, Personal Loot isn't so exciting. I like an exciting loot experience. So what I suggest is, bring back Master Loot, but put in other protection against NINJA LOOTING. This will be a new "Loot Rule Tab". It could be embeded into the "Raid Party Tab", or elsewhere that's EASY to access, open, and/or see. This new "Loot Rule Interface" could have a similar look to that of the grey--->green light up on tier boots, and help Game Masters have an easier time dealing with NINJA LOOTING businesses. Like look:



You see how "Increase the damage done by Judgement by 10%" is grayed out? when you get the three piece, it will light up in green color. Anyways, you should use this interface art form for this new NINJA LOOTING protection feature. When you open the new "Loot Rule Tab" that is built into the "Raiding Party Tab" or elsewhere, it should look like this:



Yes, when you join a raid, and you open up the "Loot Rule Tab", nothing is checked yet. The Raid Leader, Master Looter, can check the first box and get something like:



The only 2 things remaining to check will be either it's "Current Spec Only" or "Main Spec"... if either is checked, the other will be blacked-out, crossed-out, or cannot be chosen automatically. So it could look like this:



Or

like this:



So any who...

-------
When you enter a raid, and you keep asking for the Raid Leader, Master looter, you or multiple people, keep asking, and he or she refuses to check the boxes after consistent asking, and it just looks like this:



That should give you a feeling of danger that there's something fishy going on, and NINJA LOOTING has a high chance of happening.

If the Raid Leader, Master Looter, checks:



I imagine the next thing the raid or a bunch of people would ask for is "can you check 'Current Spec' or 'Main Spec' plz"...if the Raid Leader, Master Looter, refuses to check one, and it continues to look like this:



That's when you know there's something fishy going on but at least you have SOME protection against NINJA LOOTING as the "Highest Roller Wins the Loot" box is lighted up. I mean, the rest of the raid can still roll on the loot even if they don't need it. It's VERY fishy if he doesn't pick either "Current Spec" or "Main Spec". This just seem like the default follow-up choices after the first choice is selected.

If the Raid Leader, or Master Looter, checks:



Then you know he's a good guy, and everyone is completely protected against NINJA LOOTING.

However, if he checks:



Then yeah sure, maybe a DPS is running as a healer to roll on DPS gear. Or maybe, the Raid Leader, or Master Looter, has 4 friends with him who will claim the loot is their Main Spec, they need it, and they will roll for it, when they don't really need it, and when they win they will trade the loot and give it to the Raid Leader, NINJA LOOTER by this point. This is the risk, but it could be honest. That's why "...or not" is put there. To give the group the MOST INFORMED INFORMATION as possible. Kind of like the disclaimer on the cigarette boxes.

I want people to have an exciting loot experience, I want them to have some buffer and protection against NINJA LOOTING, but I also kind of want them to be on the EDGE of their seat when they see:



Like LITERALLY, I want them to be on the EDGE OF THEIR SEAT, LOL, and feel a nagging feeling the WHOLE time as they raid. Like adrenaline rushing as they're doing their DPS rotation on the boss and dodging mechanics. Really, I want to protect people, but I also want people on the edge of their seat. ROFL!!!

They're like oh shit oh shit, I'm dpsing the boss, doing good on my rotation, dodging mechanics, the rest of the group is doing well, we might down the boss, I have partial protection against NINJA LOOTING as "Highest Roller Win the Loot", but I might also roll against the NINJA LOOTER and 4 of his friends so my chances are down by 5. OH SHIT.

I want to PUT PEOPLE ON THE EDGE OF THEIR SEAT like this. In fact, I only expect, the top two options to be checked MOST time:



...for public pugs.

The rest:



or



Can be up to a game of trust, the public play, and see how trustworthy people in the public are. I mean, there's no harm in it, just like there's no harm in the disclaimer on the cigarette box. It's just there to help people make the MOST INFORM CHOICES possible by providing them with AS MUCH INFO as possible. Even with the disclaimer, some people will still smoke, so I can still see some willing to continue to raid despite seeing:



But really, it could be honest people who are just rolling their off-spec and rolling on main spec gear or vice versa. Who knows, but let it up to an adrenaline filled game of trust and uncertainty.

Well of course, the Raid Leader, Master Looter, can change rules during mid fight, so that's why you have to LOCK-IT-IN once the party finish forming by pressing a "Submit" button.

you forgot the quit whining or you will get no loot button. but seriously. no matter how many checked boxes you put it will never satisfy everyone that loses a piece of loot that the loss was legitimate. so just form your own group and loot how you see fit or else deal with the stipulations of the group you are running with.