Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Namalia]

I feel quite fulfilled when I accomplish something that was difficult. Some random person completing LFR is a non issue, I don't care. Knowing they did that does not detract from what I did. Only thing I can think of is you need that easy instant recognition of having the gear use to give, so that some random person says WOW to you every now and then. But I don't need that fluffing.

My point exactly.

The only people that are upset with the move to the current model are the types of people that used to want to stand around the bridge in IF trying to get people to notice their shiny gear and ooh and ahh at them.

For everyone else, the current model is much better.

[Deleted]

Why do people still play the original Starcraft? Why are people still playing Diablo 2? Why do I play Megaman X to this day? What moron would stream Ocarina of Time???

A fair point. My brother installs diablo 2 every 2 or 3 years.....and uninstalls it after finishing the campaign. That's the thing you know. While you like to replay old games for nostalgia you peobably wouldn't pay every month just to be able to play them. And if people don't play it Blizzard loses money every month. Have a guess how long a game is supported if it has less than zero profit.. Go on, we'll wait.

[A dot Ham]

That's a good summary of why the game is in the state it's in now.

Because seeing the content should BE the reward right?

[Eliseus]

I'm sure you'll take the time to enlighten me, then.

You mean all the information that already proved you wrong? Just reread the thread.

[Deleted]

They appreciate a challenge, while people who complained that they couldn't do the content are incapable of breathing through their

What challenge? As far as I know, the raid content on Nostalrius was still gated at BWL.

[Perkunas]

My point exactly.

The only people that are upset with the move to the current model are the types of people that used to want to stand around the bridge in IF trying to get people to notice their shiny gear and ooh and ahh at them.

For everyone else, the current model is much better.

I don't want to stand on a bridge in IF I want to run around BRM starting wars. I want guilds to cancel raids and PVP for hours on end in the world. I don't want chickens to mount up and fly off. I don't want garrisons where people AFK like a capital city. I want people to actually be out in the world running to a dungeon, farming materials/gold, etc. I want a world that's alive and social. I want tiered progression with a single raid difficulty. I want difficult dungeons and leveling that force people to socialize and work together. I want a REAL MMO like we used to have.

[Mechonics]

A fair point. My brother installs diablo 2 every 2 or 3 years.....and uninstalls it after finishing the campaign. That's the thing you know. While you like to replay old games for nostalgia you peobably wouldn't pay every month just to be able to play them. And if people don't play it Blizzard loses money every month. Have a guess how long a game is supported if it has less than zero profit.. Go on, we'll wait.

They could just do a yearly subscription then. Just because their subscription model works for retail doesn't mean it's going to work for vanilla.

OR they could do gold subs in vanilla like they do in retail. You realize they make more money from people who sub with gold than they do from people who don't? Imagine the amount of money they could make if people started paying $20/mo for vanilla servers....

[A dot Ham]

A fair point. My brother installs diablo 2 every 2 or 3 years.....and uninstalls it after finishing the campaign. That's the thing you know. While you like to replay old games for nostalgia you peobably wouldn't pay every month just to be able to play them. And if people don't play it Blizzard loses money every month. Have a guess how long a game is supported if it has less than zero profit.. Go on, we'll wait.

Its not a fair point at all. How long does it take to complete any of that? A weekend tops. You gonna play through vanilla in a weekend? No.

If the guys at Nost had a shred of dignity and/or honesty they would tell you that the majority of their "active" players stopped playing before they even hit level cap.

[Perkunas]

A fair point. My brother installs diablo 2 every 2 or 3 years.....and uninstalls it after finishing the campaign. That's the thing you know. While you like to replay old games for nostalgia you peobably wouldn't pay every month just to be able to play them. And if people don't play it Blizzard loses money every month. Have a guess how long a game is supported if it has less than zero profit.. Go on, we'll wait.

There are tons of people that still play these games regularly. You'd be surprised...

[Mechonics]

What challenge? As far as I know, the raid content on Nostalrius was still gated at BWL.

I wasn't talking about Vanilla, LFR (which is what the comment was about) didn't come out until the end of 2011 (cataclysm).

[Deleted]

quoting once again the same passage from a Wildstar-dev on neogaf:

He's right, but for the wrong reasons. Full disclosure, I've been an MMO developer for almost 8 years, so I'm slightly biased in this opinion because I've been arguing this point for almost a decade and losing to upper management who refuse to do anything but emulate the WoW post-Wrath formula.

Convenience is the antithesis of fun. All of the additions that Blizzard, and other competing game companies, have introduced in the last 6 or 7 years has been to make the game, in fact the entire genre, more convenient to play - chasing larger and larger subscription numbers by removing barriers to entry for literally everything from raiding to PvP to crafting to mega-servers. And every single one of those additions objectively made the game less fun.

But wait? How can you say that things like Dungeon Finder and Mega-Servers objectively make a game less fun?

Because the fun in playing an MMO isn't necessarily in the mechanics. It isn't necessarily in the content. It isn't in any back-of-the-box feature that makes a good marketing blurb. It isn't in raiding or PvP or soloing. The fun in playing an MMO has, in general, actually very little to do with anything the development team creates implicitly for the player. The fun in an MMO ... is it's COMMUNITY. Think back for a few moments to your fondest memories playing any MMO ... go ahead, actually think about it. What is the common denominator amongst probably all of your best memories? The other people playing the game. Your guild. Your friends. Your rivals. People doing dumb things. People doing crazy things. People doing nice things, mean things ... people doing things. Together.

The problem is that WoW, and pretty much every MMO since then, has forgotten that's the main 'fun' that players get out of the game. They forget that while Mega-servers make it easier to get groups for content - it removed the need to form meaningful interactions with people on your server. I don't need to maintain a community presence. I don't need to make friends with people on my server, people I will definitely see again, and again, and again. I don't even really need a guild. And my guild doesn't really need to work together.

(Side note: As an example, in Vanilla and BC, I was known across my server by my main character name. I had open invitations to the top raiding guilds, PvP guilds, and RP guilds. There were literally threads made in the WoW forums about my character (and my wife's) as well as several of our friends. And I knew other characters by name as well. I knew an asshole Nelf Hunter named Tamlin - I still remember that fucker to this day - who I fought with endlessly at Crossroads and Southshore. The fact was that we were basically 'done' with raiding several times, we had completed 'the game' after months and months of grinding, earning our gear and server reputations. And we kept playing because of all the connections to other players we had made. That literally can't happen in today's WoW.)

Kungen was sort-of right in that regard. Vanilla (and most of BC) required huge amounts of effort, within your own server and community, to accomplish anything. There was no Raid Finder, there was no Dungeon Finder, there wasn't even PvP gear, everything took forever to accomplish anything. And you had to accomplish these things with the same group of people - for better or worse.

The problem is that the theme park MMO genre has, quite literally, taken itself to absolute extreme in the sense that literally every activity in the game is now you, by yourself, getting into a line and riding on the ride. And that alone doesn't keep people playing.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=419

I have never seen it put better in words... that social aspect that so many are missing nowadays.

[Perkunas]

Its not a fair point at all. How long does it take to complete any of that? A weekend tops. You gonna play through vanilla in a weekend? No.

If the guys at Nost had a shred of dignity and/or honesty they would tell you that the majority of their "active" players stopped playing before they even hit level cap.

How many people get to cap in Warcraft? Lots of players are at cap, but how many fizzle out before that? There was some statistic in Wrath about it. can't remember for the life of me...

[stomination]

I don't know who discussed what, but they did steal from Warhammer.

Warhammer abandoned the project.

[Deleted]

I don't want to stand on a bridge in IF I want to run around BRM starting wars. I want guilds to cancel raids and PVP for hours on end in the world. I don't want chickens to mount up and fly off. I don't want garrisons where people AFK like a capital city. I want people to actually be out in the world running to a dungeon, farming materials/gold, etc. I want a world that's alive and social. I want tiered progression with a single raid difficulty. I want difficult dungeons and leveling that force people to socialize and work together. I want a REAL MMO like we used to have.

But would it really be worth it? To go back to poorly optimized, contentless, bug riddled world of vanilla? Not even Burning Crusade? Or maybe a new expansion that gives all that? No?

I reall want unpolluted air but I am unwilling to go back to the middle ages. Sure it was awesome: War took actual effort, air was cleaner and there was no Trump or Hillary. But in every other way it was worse than what we have now.

[stomination]

How many people get to cap in Warcraft? Lots of players are at cap, but how many fizzle out before that? There was some statistic in Wrath about it. can't remember for the life of me...

Depends there is a lot of ppl that like to do certain level bgs.

[A dot Ham]

I simply believe that there should only be a single difficulty for raid content and it should be hard. Other content should be developed as well for other players who can't hack it or commit the time to it. The new Mythic Dungeon system seems a like a great system to build on. Crafting should be a path to progression to if gear is your motivation, but to me it's the content. I raided to see the most complex encounters, to kill the biggest bosses in the game, and to socialize with like-minded players. Then again I want ALL things in this game to be difficult, take lots of time, and grant a feeling of real achievement again.

Well your personal belief means jack shit honestly.

Original WoW was not hard... it was a time sink. Every progression boss was a gear check. It had nothing to do with skill or strategy and everything to do with whether or not you had the right gear.

If you want it hard... play Mythic. If you are dumbing down your experience by only participating in LFR... that is on you, not Blizzard.

[Mechonics]

quoting once again the same passage from a wildstar-dev on neogaf:
He's right, but for the wrong reasons. Full disclosure, i've been an mmo developer for almost 8 years, so i'm slightly biased in this opinion because i've been arguing this point for almost a decade and losing to upper management who refuse to do anything but emulate the wow post-wrath formula.

Convenience is the antithesis of fun. All of the additions that blizzard, and other competing game companies, have introduced in the last 6 or 7 years has been to make the game, in fact the entire genre, more convenient to play - chasing larger and larger subscription numbers by removing barriers to entry for literally everything from raiding to pvp to crafting to mega-servers. And every single one of those additions objectively made the game less fun.

But wait? How can you say that things like dungeon finder and mega-servers objectively make a game less fun?

Because the fun in playing an mmo isn't necessarily in the mechanics. It isn't necessarily in the content. It isn't in any back-of-the-box feature that makes a good marketing blurb. It isn't in raiding or pvp or soloing. The fun in playing an mmo has, in general, actually very little to do with anything the development team creates implicitly for the player. The fun in an mmo ... Is it's community. Think back for a few moments to your fondest memories playing any mmo ... Go ahead, actually think about it. What is the common denominator amongst probably all of your best memories? The other people playing the game. Your guild. Your friends. Your rivals. People doing dumb things. People doing crazy things. People doing nice things, mean things ... People doing things. Together.

The problem is that wow, and pretty much every mmo since then, has forgotten that's the main 'fun' that players get out of the game. They forget that while mega-servers make it easier to get groups for content - it removed the need to form meaningful interactions with people on your server. I don't need to maintain a community presence. I don't need to make friends with people on my server, people i will definitely see again, and again, and again. I don't even really need a guild. And my guild doesn't really need to work together.

(side note: As an example, in vanilla and bc, i was known across my server by my main character name. I had open invitations to the top raiding guilds, pvp guilds, and rp guilds. There were literally threads made in the wow forums about my character (and my wife's) as well as several of our friends. And i knew other characters by name as well. I knew an asshole nelf hunter named tamlin - i still remember that fucker to this day - who i fought with endlessly at crossroads and southshore. The fact was that we were basically 'done' with raiding several times, we had completed 'the game' after months and months of grinding, earning our gear and server reputations. And we kept playing because of all the connections to other players we had made. That literally can't happen in today's wow.)

kungen was sort-of right in that regard. Vanilla (and most of bc) required huge amounts of effort, within your own server and community, to accomplish anything. There was no raid finder, there was no dungeon finder, there wasn't even pvp gear, everything took forever to accomplish anything. And you had to accomplish these things with the same group of people - for better or worse.

The problem is that the theme park mmo genre has, quite literally, taken itself to absolute extreme in the sense that literally every activity in the game is now you, by yourself, getting into a line and riding on the ride. And that alone doesn't keep people playing.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=419

i have never seen it put better in words... That social aspect that so many are missing nowadays.

yes.yes.yes.yes.

[Molvonos]

thats why wow is dying

I refuse to watch that video on the basis that holy fuck that's an ugly pause image.

[Deleted]

But would it really be worth it? To go back to poorly optimized, contentless, bug riddled world of vanilla? Not even Burning Crusade? Or maybe a new expansion that gives all that? No?

I reall want unpolluted air but I am unwilling to go back to the middle ages. Sure it was awesome: War took actual effort, air was cleaner and there was no Trump or Hillary. But in every other way it was worse than what we have now.

Yes please. Give me that blizzlike poorly optimized, contentless, bug riddled world of vanilla. OK?

Then i won't complain.

Why is it so hard to comprehend that i like vanilla, even if you don't? I don't bash on your love for legion , WoD or whatever expansion

[Namalia]

I don't want to stand on a bridge in IF I want to run around BRM starting wars. I want guilds to cancel raids and PVP for hours on end in the world. I don't want chickens to mount up and fly off. I don't want garrisons where people AFK like a capital city. I want people to actually be out in the world running to a dungeon, farming materials/gold, etc. I want a world that's alive and social. I want tiered progression with a single raid difficulty. I want difficult dungeons and leveling that force people to socialize and work together. I want a REAL MMO like we used to have.

Ah, a PvP player...

That explains a lot. It also explains the hostility.

I'm glad most of that is gone. (Especially World PvP & that HORRIBLE TBC endgame model.)

You can still be as social as you want to be. If you're having trouble being social, that's a personal problem.

Not a fan of garrisons. But, people still stood in their garrisons and spammed trade chat, only difference is you didn't see their toon standing in front of you.

The only real substantial difference (other than from a PvP standpoint, but I don't give a damn about PvP or its players) is that the "have-not"s actually get to experience the whole story for themselves.

Beyond that, it's still a MMORPG, and the most popular on the market, I might add.