[Spoilers!] Illidan Novel

[Zuben]

I don't mind him going holy as long as he keeps his personality.

[Deleted]

I get what you're saying, and is not surprising that inherently benevolent creatures are "balanced" by absolutely zealot ones. If Scarlets and Twilight's Hammer could manage to have Light users, then there's no limit to the kind of individuals that could potentially harness such power. However, the Light still remains fundamentally a force that affects people in a "positive" way or needs a "positive" sort of mindset. We could translate this with the convinction of being right. Even when is fanatical and bordering insanity, the adamant convinction of being "right" and doing something "good" let these people to use the Light. The Void is just the other side of the coin: the people who harness such power can be as equally insane, but are guided by a nihilistic desire to annihilate all creation for the hell of it, to inflict every sort of physical and psychological torture because there's an hedonistic enjoyment in doing so. So in the end, the fundamental influence is definitely "negative".

In the end consider Light and Void "good or evil" depends entirely to which meaning you give to such words. It's not necessarily tied to standard ideas of morality, but more how such power is influenced and how it influences people and creatures alike. In the end, an insane individual who does insane things because he believes in righteousness is equally dangerous as one who commits insane actions for the sake of it. The only difference is which of two cosmic forces guides said actions.

There's also another matter, though. The Light, while it spawned several entities in the physical universe, doesn't seem to possess overly-powerful ones in its own realm. There's no "will of the Light", fundamentally. The Void realm, on the other hand, has these unspeakably powerful Void Lords that while they don't literally command their own realm, they seem to be entities of far greater scale than any Light-based creature we had knowledge about so far. And is not clear which role they should have in the universe, because they don't absolutely belong to our own: they exist outside of reality and their only goal is pierce through it and consume it all. So in the end is not really a matter of what's less "harmful" between Light and Void but the fact that the Void has a type of sentient, unfathomable creatures driven by an insatiable hunger of matter and energy, and the Light seems to miss a counterpart, for whatever reason.

I agree however that this "Elder Naaru" thing is somewhat weird and could be the first hint pointing in that direction. What's particularly iffy is how this entity marks the Void itself as the enemy Illidan is supposed to counter, making no mention whatsoever about the Void Lords Sargeras is so obsessed about. Last but not least, a Naaru who focuses all its attention on the Void dismissing the Burning Legion as second-tier threat is unprecedented. Its personality too seems to slightly differ from the Naaru we met so far.

I think that Light is primary connected with altruism. Even if you do evil stuff, if you do it for the greater good, for others you still can use it, while I think that Void is probably more connected with a egoistic attitude. you can use it for the good, but you're needs and desires will be ever in the first place.

Also, I think Lorefans should go more full-throated angry about the path WoWs Story went.

[Deleted]

I think that Light is primary connected with altruism. Even if you do evil stuff, if you do it for the greater good, for others you still can use it, while I think that Void is probably more connected with a egoistic attitude. you can use it for the good, but you're needs and desires will be ever in the first place.

It's not about altruism and egoism, it's about zealotry and insanity. The Scarlet Crusade isn't altruistic, they torture and kill everyone that isn't a Scarlet, that's the complete opposite of altruism.

[UnluckyAmateur]

I don't know it is just me, or i have feeling that greather destiny of what Illidan mentioned several times, has coming with Legion? Yep i mean his destiny.

But still don't explain one thing, but about void. Voidwalkers are old gods minions or something more, beyond them?

Voidwalkers are basically like imps to the void lords while OGs are like Pit lords if that makes any sense.

[steelballfc]

Voidwalkers are basically like imps to the void lords while OGs are like Pit lords if that makes any sense.

nothing make sense anymore

[Deleted]

It's not about altruism and egoism, it's about zealotry and insanity. The Scarlet Crusade isn't altruistic, they torture and kill everyone that isn't a Scarlet, that's the complete opposite of altruism.

And Paladins smash the Heads of living and intelligent unliving creatures with mighty Warhammer while hurting them with hammers of pure light.

An altruistic Person can also torture and kill other people, if he thinks that it's serves the greater Good. And the Scarlet Crusader thought that everything they did served the greater good.

[Zulkhan]

I think that Light is primary connected with altruism. Even if you do evil stuff, if you do it for the greater good, for others you still can use it, while I think that Void is probably more connected with a egoistic attitude. you can use it for the good, but you're needs and desires will be ever in the first place.

On the very basis yes, Light seems to be about ideals and moral beliefs. Void isn't necessarily egoistic but seems tied to the utter lack of morals, is the highest expression of efficiency, cynism and pragmatism, which can indeed lead to self-serving behaviors but is not entirely about that.

Ultimately though, ideals and morals are conceptions created by an individual through a positive mindset, one that makes you believe in the righteousness of your actions, that what you do is for the greater good, for the good of others. But the problem lies there, one's belief isn't necessarily a reality. You can believe that but that doesn't necessarily mean you're doing any good to anyone.

The Scarlets are an obvious example in many ways but the Twilight Vindicators are an even better example. Seriously, these guys served the interests of an organization that literally wanted to bring the end of days, they wanted to see the world burn. And yet, the fact that these "paladins" wielded the Light means that a "positive" mindset and, consequently, an "higher" belief guided their actions. In other words, they didn't seek ultimate annihilation of all existence for the sake of power or because they enjoyed to make people suffer, they were likely so mad they genuinely thought that ultimate extinction was a form of benevolent mercy. It's with this same mindset that, most probably, Benedictus joined the Twilight's Hammer.

And this is funny because simply shows how Light and Void can be surprisingly close to each other. Both have a basic, diametrically opposed and yet not necessarily harmful premise, both actually necessary when balanced and in good measure, but at the same time, both can go to dangerous extremes and once reached those extremes, Light leads to absolute zealotry and Void to absolute nihilism. In both cases, the ultimate gain is utter insanity.

[KrakHed]

On the very basis yes, Light seems to be about ideals and moral beliefs. Void isn't necessarily egoistic but seems tied to the utter lack of morals, is the highest expression of efficiency, cynism and pragmatism, which can indeed lead to self-serving behaviors but is not entirely about that.

I like how the RPG handled it with giving both religions many of the same three virtues. It's important to note, but the three virtues are even brought up ingame by Paletress.

The Light seems to focus a lot on not just the connection between the individual and the universe, but the connection between yourself and others. To be more connected to others would also bring you closer to the Light. So yes, it's more idealistic and altruistic, or at least less selfish.

The Cult of Forgotten Shadow in the RPG was a bit different. It shares the basic premise of a connection to the universe but frames it from a perspective which puts the individual at the forefront. It's less about the bond everyone has to the universe but rather the way their will shapes it. It still recognizes the power of other individuals but their Virtues are almost all phrased in terms of cold practicalities as to how they benefit you personally.

It still does have ideals, but the difference was most clearly illustrated in how "Compassion" was replaced with "Power" as a primary virtue, even if Compassion wasn't entirely discarded. Where "Compassion" is about helping others and increasing one's connections that way, the pursuit of "Power" is about seeking to better oneself.

In short, the Shadow focuses more on the individuals whereas the Light is focused more on the connections between them.

[Cwimge]

This is all kinds of repulsive.

[Deleted]

It's an odd direction they are taking things in now.
Did they get new writers? Was this always the plan?

I miss the days when Warcraft was about knights, Orcs, dragons, wizards, castles, jungle trolls etc...

[Qualia]

It's an odd direction they are taking things in now.
Did they get new writers? Was this always the plan?

I miss the days when Warcraft was about knights, Orcs, dragons, wizards, castles, jungle trolls etc...

You can't really keep people interested in the game with just Alliance vs Orc, or trolls, or dragons for more than 10 years with a time constraint of 4-6 months per patch (other than the gap between last patch of an expansion and the next). Heck, when it seemed like we were going to get two expansions with Orcs being the villains, people already complained like there was no tomorrow. The story and cast need to be expanded eventually - WC2 (or 3 even)'s story were good (relatively, using gaming standard) for standalone games of which story isn't too important, but those were just too simple to keep people hooked for long.

[KrakHed]

It's an odd direction they are taking things in now.
Did they get new writers? Was this always the plan?

I miss the days when Warcraft was about knights, Orcs, dragons, wizards, castles, jungle trolls etc...

Nah, it's just fairly typical power creep. We have to keep moving on to bigger and bigger things.

[Kretan]

I think the only real way to move Warcraft forward to to introduce the new story arc that we are seeing. Let's be honest, most of the old story arcs are pretty much dried up or near their end.

[RyanEX]

I said it on the official forums and I'll say it here. That last bit sounds like Fanfiction...

Bad fanfiction...

Really...REALLY..BAD fanfiction.

[orgonutil]

wow now is like a gerge martin book. What would be better at long term, a lore like lord of rings (where after a few chapters you know how it will end) or like chronicles of ice and fire (when you think that you know what will happen, than in the end of first book cheat happens, you think "WTF!!!" and you never know exactly what comes next)?

[KrakHed]

I said it on the official forums and I'll say it here. That last bit sounds like Fanfiction...

Bad fanfiction...

Really...REALLY..BAD fanfiction.

It's only bad if there isn't a twist.

One rule of showing a vision of the future in a story is that it can't be a spoiler, which means there always has to be a twist.

[Dreyen]

Illidan being holy feels really weird. I could understand if he had the support of the Naaru and became a badass demon hunter, but if he's going to become a holy demon hunter with angel wings and no more fel powers ill probably cringe. That kind of role would be more suited for a character like Anduin.

[Beefsquatch]

He is still gaining power, with the additional of fame and adoration for himself. What goes against his character, then? It isn't guaranteed that he'd have to stop being an anti-hero when he become a Champion of the Light in the future. Unless you are implying one need to be all good and holy to become a killing machine Champion of the Light.

Sorry for the late reply but...It doesn't seem like he is gaining this [holy] power for himself. He's going to be the champion of the light. Which means he will be doing things for the greater good, for the betterment of others. And you do need to be all good and holy to become the Champion of light. You can't be evil or selfish and become someone like Tirion.

I'm sorry, it's just plain bad writing and a stupid direction to take an already awesome character. Illidan is a kind of complex character with complex morals. On the one hand, he wants more power to himself to be able to defeat his enemies and take their power as his own. To fight fire with fire.

On the other, he wants to protect those he (somewhat) cares about, like Tyrande. Under no circumstances would (or should) he become a beacon of holy power. That's just stupid.

[Zulkhan]

It's only bad if there isn't a twist.

One rule of showing a vision of the future in a story is that it can't be a spoiler, which means there always has to be a twist.

Pretty much. People are overreacting out of prejudice and preconceptions, but the only way to judge a certain development is to realize its final destination. That isn't anything we can speculate from what we know right now.

- - - Updated - - -

And you do need to be all good and holy to become the Champion of light. You can't be evil or selfish and become someone like Tirion.

The Twilight Vindicators says hi.

Tirion wasn't the best paladin because he had the best morals and was much more "good" than any other, he was because he had the strongest faith in his own beliefs. Using the Light is all about the willpower and own convinction to be able to use it.

[Gawdzilla]

I thought the book really did a decent job of showing that Illidan and Maiev became mirrors of each other.

Wish they had more scenes together though..