Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Smaxy]

It's not only my idea.

This is a good post.

For me personally, I tried to avoid solely using buzzwords for how I thought about something the first go-around. The problem is, we're on round seven and it felt overly repetitive for repeating the same statements and reasoning in the exact same way every single week. I'm hoping Blizzard read all of our feedback to put our current words in context. If you guys feel like copy-pasting old feedback from months ago would be a better way to reach the developers than using "buzzwords" and referencing older feedback posts, then I'd have no problem doing that next build.

To me, if they look at our current feedback and dismiss it because it contained "buzzwords" and the like, it's clear they ignored our previous feedback, which was quite in depth. So I don't think you can point to our recent posts and clearly say "it's on you causing the developers to ignore us," when there is quite a lot of substance behind our posts (feedback from past builds).

[Mafic]

You say that but the arbiters of what feedback matters and doesn't matter are the people at blizzard, and they will listen more to posts that conform to a certain standard. It is of course reasonable to think that that standard is diverse and encompasses many forms of feedback, so it's somewhat arrogant to dismiss out of hand what some people are saying purely on the basis of how they present their points, but I personally skip well over half of the things in this thread simply on the grounds that if someone is unable to present themselves concisely and coherently then their thoughts on the subject are likely to be ill-considered.

Does this run the risk of missing the proverbial diamond in the rough? Yes. But there's only so much time, and I'd rather not read writings that are motivated solely by the authors wish to be heard.

Blizz doesn't care if the feedback is constructive or not at this point...it is crunch time. It is still important to provide feedback for the first or second patch...but arguing they will still listen to feedback now if it is structured in a formulaic fashion is the height of naivete. The truth is that all feedback is important because their goal is to design a game that is receptive to all types of players.

Not just the number crunchers, mythic raiders, 2k rated arena players, etc.

[shoegazing]

Blizz doesn't care if the feedback is constructive or not at this point...it is crunch time. It is still important to provide feedback for the first or second patch...but arguing they will still listen to feedback now if it is structured in a formulaic fashion is the height of naivete. The truth is that all feedback is important because their goal is to design a game that is receptive to all types of players.

Not just the number crunchers, mythic raiders, 2k rated arena players, etc.

Well if that is their goal then they have a lot of work to do.

The rated PvP community is near-universally disappointed with Legion, particularly the class design.

[Mafic]

Well if that is their goal then they have a lot of work to do.

The rated PvP community is near-universally disappointed with Legion, particularly the class design.

Even for casual players...the attempt to make Sub easier has made it harder on casual players in Legion IMO. Having to dump energy and combo points before shadow dance is not only counter intuitive to veteran Rogue players, but this is too much to ask for with casual or new players to the class learning the basics.

The worst part is that they think they are making the specs easier to play by removing energy refund from finishers and putting them in the talents/artifact talents. But all that does is add to the sheer frustration for players playing without said talents as Sub.

[Mac223]

The truth is that all feedback is important because their goal is to design a game that is receptive to all types of players.

I agree that they listen to all feedback, but if nothing else people are more likely to read something the reads well. And they're more likely to appreciate something that is coherent and on point. So I'm not trying to discourage people from giving feedback, I'm just saying that if you want people to listen to what you have to say then you should consider how to best achieve that end.

[Mafic]

I agree that they listen to all feedback, but if nothing else people are more likely to read something the reads well. And they're more likely to appreciate something that is coherent and on point. So I'm not trying to discourage people from giving feedback, I'm just saying that if you want people to listen to what you have to say then you should consider how to best achieve that end.

Of course tone matters..however like I said earlier the squeaky wheel is the one that receives grease. Sometimes it takes a lot more than structured feedback for Blizz to see what they are doing is not a good idea. As I mentioned this earlier, the biggest hurdle is the assumption by Blizz people like the specs as they are on alpha but only a few are being vocal against this direction. If that is how they perceive it then there is not much you can do regardless of how well structured the feedback is.

Roll the Bones as an example has conflicting feedback with some people saying on twttier they like the RNG factor of fishing for Jolly Roger (which Blizz is okay with) while others disagree and want to bring back Recuperate instead which offers player choice.

[Deleted]

Yeah i don't pvp a lot and i never did any arena above 1700, but i think like many other that cc reduction and fixed stats are a good thing for balance, Also I think pvp talent and new pvp system is looking great and will motivate me to pvp more in legion, it's my opinion, you can have your own but dissmising mine by saying that i'm not a real pvper is just wrong, if you don't agree with me than explain why so i can learn instead of using stuff like you're not high rated so you're ill-informed.

I don't really think you understand the problem in PvP. It's not the amount of CC that's the problem - previous expansions have actually had more and yet PvP combat felt more fluid and engaging. You absolutely need CC and utility (like Shiv, Tremor Totem, proper Druid shapeshifting) in order to prevent PvP becoming a damage race. When there is no way to mechanically outplay your opponents or get punished for over-extending, it literally becomes a case of just training a target until it dies, performing a PvE-like rotation. If you examine at what PvP looks like on Legion alpha at the moment, it looks alarmingly like this. You can already semi-choose to play this way on live (certain compositions favour the style, like Windwalker-Death Knight-healer) but there's also the option to play a more controlled style of gameplay (often involving Rogues, thankfully). At least there's the choice. On Legion it's been stripped down. And few classes have felt this as hard as Rogues. I, for one, am bitterly disappointed.

[Wow]

Even for casual players...the attempt to make Sub easier has made it harder on casual players in Legion IMO. Having to dump energy and combo points before shadow dance is not only counter intuitive to veteran Rogue players, but this is too much to ask for with casual or new players to the class learning the basics.

I don't like the "new sub" however it definitely makes it easier on casuals. Which sounds easier pooling your energy at the right times or never pooling and just hitting buttons? The normal rotation will keep their energy low so that won't take much thought.

[maddnesskhaz]

It's not only my idea.

Whilst it's a reasonable post, there's some irony in it being Brewmaster related.

[shoegazing]

I don't really think you understand the problem in PvP. It's not the amount of CC that's the problem - previous expansions have actually had more and yet PvP combat felt more fluid and engaging. You absolutely need CC and utility (like Shiv, Tremor Totem, proper Druid shapeshifting) in order to prevent PvP becoming a damage race. When there is no way to mechanically outplay your opponents or get punished for over-extending, it literally becomes a case of just training a target until it dies, performing a PvE-like rotation. If you examine at what PvP looks like on Legion alpha at the moment, it looks alarmingly like this. You can already semi-choose to play this way on live (certain compositions favour the style, like Windwalker-Death Knight-healer) but there's also the option to play a more controlled style of gameplay (often involving Rogues, thankfully). At least there's the choice. On Legion it's been stripped down. And few classes have felt this as hard as Rogues. I, for one, am bitterly disappointed.

Pretty much this.

They're trying to make PvP rogues play like a frost DK where you just pick a target and tunnel damage. As someone who's played this class for 11 years, it's an extreme disappointment.

[Deleted]

They might as well just bake Symbols of Death into Nightblade or something, it's such a weird ability that sticks out like a sore thumb. I'd much rather have a new finisher during Stealth. And it's obviously not the replacement for Find Weakness, because Master of Subtlety embodies that a lot more. It's just... not right.

They took Vendetta, an already flat and boring ability, and managed to turn it into an even more boring ability.

[no19]

What is up with many testers being so detached and righteous at this time of year? They speak like a judge when they are in fact lawyers, lawyers on our behalf. With many customers having decade-long conflicted interests in this product, it obviously isn't a simple company-customer relationship anymore. It is politics. Representatives of us need to speak with a stronger voice.

[kalaratic]

What is up with many testers being so detached and righteous at this time of year? They speak like a judge when they are in fact lawyers, lawyers on our behalf. With many customers having decade-long conflicted interests in this product, it obviously isn't a simple company-customer relationship anymore. It is politics. Representatives of us need to speak with a stronger voice.

well what do u want us to do outside of harassing them on twitter? the feedback is there

[no19]

well what do u want us to do outside of harassing them on twitter? the feedback is there

Yes, go harassing them on twitter!
Just kidding, maybe I am not talking about you then

[Bigbazz]

Just testing the latest sub (last time I played was first iteration garbage).. Subterfuge is using my stealth bars for 3 seconds after breaking stealth as expected but Shadow Dance is using my normal bars meaning I need to have stealth only abilities on them. Is this normal behavior? In the past Shadow Dance always defaulted to the Stealth bars which makes sense since it is giving you access to Stealth abilities, but now it's not working that away any more.

[maddnesskhaz]

Just testing the latest sub (last time I played was first iteration garbage).. Subterfuge is using my stealth bars for 3 seconds after breaking stealth as expected but Shadow Dance is using my normal bars meaning I need to have stealth only abilities on them. Is this normal behavior? In the past Shadow Dance always defaulted to the Stealth bars which makes sense since it is giving you access to Stealth abilities, but now it's not working that away any more.

Working as intended; they 'removed' the stealth bar paging from Shadow Dance, as apparently we don't have sufficient abilities to warrant needing it.

For bonus points they also removed macro stance conditional triggering from Dance as well, so you don't get a macro changing from Backstab (or Gloomblade) to Shadowstrike.

[Bigbazz]

Working as intended; they 'removed' the stealth bar paging from Shadow Dance, as apparently we don't have sufficient abilities to warrant needing it.

For bonus points they also removed macro stance conditional triggering from Dance as well, so you don't get a macro changing from Backstab (or Gloomblade) to Shadowstrike.

Well that is dull as fuck. I'd thought it might be a bug or something, crazy.

[Mafic]

Well that is dull as fuck. I'd thought it might be a bug or something, crazy.

Warlocks thought it was a bug that they had to use a macro to re-position Demonic Circle but it was a feature apparently as that second button was pruned.

[Deleted]

They might as well just bake Symbols of Death into Nightblade or something, it's such a weird ability that sticks out like a sore thumb. I'd much rather have a new finisher during Stealth. And it's obviously not the replacement for Find Weakness, because Master of Subtlety embodies that a lot more. It's just... not right.

They took Vendetta, an already flat and boring ability, and managed to turn it into an even more boring ability.

I've seen people make suggestions of a stealth-only finisher before. It boggles my mind. When you're in stealth, you're generally preparing for a fight/reseting/trying to get CC on your opponent in PvP/etc which means that the most frequent things you're using are combo-point builders - you don't have the resources to do a finisher in stealth because you're either spamming Shadowstrike or CC. It would feel massively clunky to have a stealth-only finisher. Vanish/Shadow Dance just to use your finisher that you've been Backstabbing to build for?

[Deleted]

I've seen people make suggestions of a stealth-only finisher before. It boggles my mind. When you're in stealth, you're generally preparing for a fight/reseting/trying to get CC on your opponent in PvP/etc which means that the most frequent things you're using are combo-point builders - you don't have the resources to do a finisher in stealth because you're either spamming Shadowstrike or CC. It would feel massively clunky to have a stealth-only finisher. Vanish/Shadow Dance just to use your finisher that you've been Backstabbing to build for?

From a PvE perspective people vouch for a stealth finisher with increased damage, because it would work as a bandaid fix for the current design. Outside of ShD you want to pool energy most of the time so you don't risk overcapping in CP by using BS/Gloom. On the other hand before going into ShD you want to dumb as much energy as possible. When you are in ShD it is very likely to overcap CP of course depending on your talents and because the ShD window is already that short, people do not want to get punished for overcapping resources by casting a more powerful version of Eviscerate or Nightblade.

It is probably on of the main critique points currently, that we are forced to decide which resource we want to overcap on. Don't like to overcap on CP? Choose Anticipation. Don't like to overcap on energy? Choose Vigor. Especially for rogue veterans who strife for perfection in efficiency not wanting to waste a single CP, a single point of energy this design feels punishing to say the least. And I don't get why this design would make the spec more accessible for newer players.