Why don't refugees stay and fight

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

Your figures account for arrests and detentions, they don't figure in the legions who were shot and killed actively on the battlefield, hurr fucking durr reading comprehension.

158,000 Recorded executions, if you count those killed by SMERSH.

Shit, that's still not even counting death tolls from deserter battalions either, but hey- cherry picking numbers is straight out of the big book of Trump so I'm not surprised at the intellectual dishonesty, and lack of intellect overall.

As Soviet defeats continued into 1942, Stalin issued Order 227 that authorized a series of punitive measures against Soviet soldiers. The Red Army was ordered to form its own units of blocking troops to stiffen its soldiers, apparently there being insufficient NKVD units to go around.

Barrier troops were used from September 1941 in some situations, however not routinely and everywhere, with exception of penal batallions.

Red Army blocking troops were not a great success, soldiers being reluctant to fire on their own, unlike the NKVD, and the innovation was quietly dropped later, leaving the NKVD again responsible for battlefield discipline.



According to what I have read only about 10,000 soldiers were executed for desertion.

Tell us more how the SMERSH was everywhere AND THEY FUCKING MOWED DOWN THEIR OWN MEN!!!!!!!!

Actual facts say otherwise, but please continue with your fairy tales.

Maybe stop getting your facts from the movie "Enemy at the Gates".

I bet you believe the ol "Roots" myth about old fat white men wearing goofy clothing stumbling through the African jungle carrying a blunderbuss, and throwing nets on friendly African natives, because you saw it on TV.

[Krille]

order 270 from 1941 concerned only commanders and commisars. Also, it forbad only surrender right away without a fight. According to this order organized retreat was fine.

"Large" amounts of deserters is around 1% of total military men (376k out of around 34 millions). Krivosheev's data, he is massively cited by western shcolars.

"The second article demanded that encircled soldiers must use every possibility to fight on, and to demand that their commanders organize the fighting; according to the order, anyone attempting to surrender instead of fighting must be killed and their family members deprived of any state welfare and assistance."

From the order. It was directed both ways, the regular soldiers could kill their commanders if they "were bad" (bad planning, strategizing etc) too. As i said, the number of deserters isn't important because knowing they would die if they attempted to flee is enough to make most humans stay put. As.. Per our most basic instinct, once again.

[Mehrunes]

People even point stuff out to you and you still go on with that.

It's kind of magical, actually.

[Deleted]

They are not there willingly but because that is their only option atm and again relatively safe one. My country was a transit one, last year i used to travel a lot between my country and Hungary/Austria, probably 2 times each week and I seen 10s of thousands of them. That number can't be ignored.

Considering the welcoming party they received in greece and others I wouldnt blame them from moving. Markos, it really isnt complicated. We fucked up. We KNEW this was coming and yet started pricking around instead of building a system. We cant expect greece and italy to carry the burden by themselves.

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Believing Syrians aren't armed.

Never wondering why the overwhelming vast majority of "refugees" are military aged men, and not questioning why there isn't more families and women. Nope just military aged men who abandoned their country, their wives, their mothers, their children and their sisters.

Most people would call them cowards.

The question you are asking has been answered a numerous amount of times. The fact that you keep on repeating that point only makes you look more obtuse. And believe me... thats hard.

[Krille]

Tell us more how the SMERSH was everywhere AND THEY FUCKING MOWED DOWN THEIR OWN MEN!!!!!!!!

Actual facts say otherwise, but please continue with your fairy tales.

During World War II, the Soviets executed 158,000 soldiers for desertion.

The number of German army executions pales in comparison to Russia’s record. More than 158,000 Soviet soldiers were put to death for fleeing their posts during the war. Others were confined to penal battalions, which was just as good as a death sentence. Stalin also ordered his armies to form “blocking detachments” that would be positioned just behind the front to mow down any soldiers that fled. “It takes a very brave man to be a coward in the Red Army,” Stalin once remarked.

http://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/0...ime-deserters/

[Mehrunes]

You don't have to be a fucking soldier to fight for yourself, your family and people you love/care about. The thing with refugees is that they are not going to countries that are few thousands km closer and totally/relatively safe but the are choosing to go to countries with highest economies, welfare in Europe....

And that's why majority of them are in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan, right?

[Keeponrage]

Your figures account for arrests and detentions, they don't figure in the legions who were shot and killed actively on the battlefield, hurr fucking durr reading comprehension.

less watching western myths like "Enemy at the Gates". It was not in the responsibility of detention squads to mow down soldiers on battlefield. A commander could kill an outright panic-monger right during a battle from his pistol and he was obliged to report it later. A legions of soviets mowed down on battlefield by their own troops is a myth.

[Mehrunes]

But alas, you come from the Donald Trump School of Planning. -I'll do this or that grandiose thing! How? That's irrelevant.

The "how" is obvious. They build a wall around Syria! And then flood it or whatever, so it's possible to catch the enemies.

[Krille]

And whats wrong in using "them" when talking about refugees?!? Your views of Eastern European countries couldn't be more wrong, but i guess that's ok from someone who gets his information from CNN or BBC

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...fugees/410800/

You can look at the colorful graphs further down in the article and specifically look at Eastern Europe.

[Joathen]

As Soviet defeats continued into 1942, Stalin issued Order 227 that authorized a series of punitive measures against Soviet soldiers. The Red Army was ordered to form its own units of blocking troops to stiffen its soldiers, apparently there being insufficient NKVD units to go around.

Barrier troops were used from September 1941 in some situations, however not routinely and everywhere, with exception of penal batallions.

Red Army blocking troops were not a great success, soldiers being reluctant to fire on their own, unlike the NKVD, and the innovation was quietly dropped later, leaving the NKVD again responsible for battlefield discipline.



According to what I have read only about 10,000 soldiers were executed for desertion.

Tell us more how the SMERSH was everywhere AND THEY FUCKING MOWED DOWN THEIR OWN MEN!!!!!!!!

Actual facts say otherwise, but please continue with your fairy tales.

Maybe stop getting your facts from the movie "Enemy at the Gates".

I bet you believe the ol "Roots" myth about old fat white men wearing goofy clothing stumbling through the African jungle carrying a blunderbuss, and throwing nets on friendly African natives, because you saw it on TV.

427,000 In penal legions, the majority of which didn't survive;

Men ordinarily subject to penal military unit service included:
Those convicted of desertion or cowardice under Order No. 227. While cowardice under fire was punished with instant execution, soldiers or officers in rear areas suspected of having a "reluctance to fight" could (and frequently were) summarily stripped of rank and reassigned to a shtrafbat under Order 227.

So again, your tiny 10,000 figure is just counting summary executions ordered via court martial; my source for my figures is Krivosheev, which is far from a fairytale you ignorant cunt. And SMERSH consisted of roughly 12% of the Red Army. They were everywhere.

Somebody else take over, I can't keep reiterating the same shit to this dumbfuck.

Infracted

[Mehrunes]

Do I have that "right"?
I am not so sure.
And trust me, you do NOT want the entire 3rd world to exercise this "moral right", because then there would be no "peaceful first world country".

Forgot this part. Excerpt from Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 25 is also relevant:

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

During World War II, the Soviets executed 158,000 soldiers for desertion.

The number of German army executions pales in comparison to Russia’s record. More than 158,000 Soviet soldiers were put to death for fleeing their posts during the war. Others were confined to penal battalions, which was just as good as a death sentence. Stalin also ordered his armies to form “blocking detachments” that would be positioned just behind the front to mow down any soldiers that fled. “It takes a very brave man to be a coward in the Red Army,” Stalin once remarked.

http://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/0...ime-deserters/

Yeah, no one is saying that soldiers weren't put to death for desertion. I am simply saying they weren't mowed down on the battlefield. You are putting the executions together with the barrier troops.

It simply is not the case though.

[Granyala]

And US army made battle plans for multiple kinds of zombie apocalypse, including one caused by necromancy.

You're joking, right?

I mean I know the clichés about "Murica" but come on...

And it doesn't change the fact that it's not the government's job to make sure that people don't turn up to be asshats when they grow up.

Well it's their job to define "asshat", release laws against being an "asshat" and enforcing these laws if someone decides to put a hat on his ass anyway.

[May90]

Human behavior is to run to safety, not best safety you can have.....

That is wrong. All other things equal, people tend to choose the option with the best outcome. When you need $500 desperately and you are offered a choice between the gift of $1,000 and $100,000, then, even though $1,000 covers your needs as well, I'm pretty sure I can guess which amount you will choose. If Germany/Sweden is a safer and with a higher quality of life place than Poland/Romania, few people are going to choose Poland/Romania, as long as they have a choice.

[Joathen]

less watching western myths like "Enemy at the Gates". It was not in the responsibility of detention squads to mow down soldiers on battlefield. A commander could kill an outright panic-monger right during a battle from his pistol and he was obliged to report it later. A legions of soviets mowed down on battlefield by their own troops is a myth.

158,000 is almost 2/5ths the strength of the US Army today- I'd say that qualifies as legions. (Legion = 6000.)

[Krille]

Yeah, no one is saying that soldiers weren't put to death for desertion. I am simply saying they weren't mowed down on the battlefield. You are putting the executions together with the barrier troops.

It simply is not the case though.

You should read the article posted. It's specifically about fleeing from war, and the authors probably know more than both you and i.

[Mehrunes]

You're joking, right?

I mean I know the clichés about "Murica" but come on...

Nope.

Well it's their job to define "asshat", release laws against being an "asshat" and enforcing these laws if someone decides to put a hat on his ass anyway.

Why would this be the case?

[MasterHamster]

Well this is certainly among the dumbest questions I've ever seen on this forum, and that as someone who has for years been frustrated about the negative aspects unregulated immigration has on society... societies that pretends that refugees aren't an economic factor. I'm watching Sweden committing economic suicide, barely able to keep roofs above everyones heads and welfare state crumbling at the seams, while our joke of a government and state media keeps pretending our economy is "doing better than ever" but asking why refugees aren't fighting ISIS? Good God, man.

Ask everyone in your family and extended family members, no matter their age, health or physical ability why they wouldn't fight extremists who are raping, beheading and massacring anyone in sight instead of fleeing to the "rich and welcoming Europe"?

[Krille]

That is wrong. All other things equal, people tend to choose the option with the best outcome. When you need $500 desperately and you are offered a choice between the gift of $1,000 and $100,000, then, even though $1,000 covers your needs as well, I'm pretty sure I can guess which amount you will choose. If Germany/Sweden is a safer and with a higher quality of life place than Poland/Romania, few people are going to choose Poland/Romania, as long as they have a choice.

People are even "fleeing" Romania/Poland to Sweden at this moment. But we never talk about that.

[Super Friendly Kitty Cat]

427,000 In penal legions, the majority of which didn't survive;

Men ordinarily subject to penal military unit service included:
Those convicted of desertion or cowardice under Order No. 227. While cowardice under fire was punished with instant execution, soldiers or officers in rear areas suspected of having a "reluctance to fight" could (and frequently were) summarily stripped of rank and reassigned to a shtrafbat under Order 227.

So again, your tiny 10,000 figure is just counting summary executions ordered via court martial; my source for my figures is Krivosheev, which is far from a fairytale you ignorant cunt. And SMERSH consisted of roughly 12% of the Red Army. They were everywhere.

Somebody else take over, I can't keep reiterating the same shit to this dumbfuck.

Yet no evidence suggests that vast amount of Russian soldiers were ever gunned down on the battlefield by Russian Barrier troops, nor were they common, nor were they useful or the practice was kept throughout the war. That was your original statement, which I single handily destroyed with specific evidence and facts.

I would be upset and name call too if I was losing an argument and nothing else left to offer.