The State of WoW (my ranty opinion)

[Deleted]

no, I whine that it is not a MMO-RPG, not an action/adventure genre.

The aspects your are mentioning are not part of just RPGs. In age of empires 3 you could level up your cities and gain traits, was that a RPG game?

Leveling up a city is not the same as leveling up a character.

Are you purposely trying to be daft?

In age of empires are you controlling a character?

What does an RPG have that WoW doesnt have. Be concrete if you are capable of such a thing

[unbound]

I absolutely agree with the OP. WoW hasn't been an MMORPG in a long time.

Kara was an absolute blast because of the fact that we had to figure out different ways to approach each encounter because my guild had a different comp running every week. It had far more flavor than 2 tanks, 3 healers, and 5 DPS.

I would run several alts with non-optimal builds because I had fun with them. I still succeeded quite well, and most people were none the wiser.

And while I wouldn't classify all aspects of RPG as "fun" per se, it made the game far more engaging. It immersed you far better into the game world. You character had...well, character. Being a fire mage was hugely different from being a destro lock...it wasn't just about putting up the best DPS, it was about the other tools that you brought and using them in interesting ways that no others (or only one or two others) could even remotely duplicate.

Heck, at this point, games like Smite have a better RPG element than WoW does anymore.

[Sparda Strife]

WoW has never been a true RPG for that matter, gaining traits and experience, managing arrows and reagents doesn´t make a RPG as such, that is saying that Diablo is a true RPG game.

A lot of you miss features that still are there, no one forces to use LFG, Group finder, heirlooms, you name it, i bet that if you go to another game, you would use them all. But you just whine because it wasn´t like before.

[Jibjub]

The problem is and ALWAYS has been the increased focus on raids -- or, less specifically, instanced content.

Once most all content is instanced, variables are removed. When there are fewer variables involved, then theory crafting becomes more precise. This leads to "optimal" specs ... because you are 98% of the time playing against AI puzzles.

With more outer-world content (ideally with either open world PvP or, if the tech allowed, very dynamic PvE)... more character customization could exist.

Once Blizzard decided to funnel everyone into raiding, with few alternatives, there was no other choice but to water-down the RPG elements of the game. A large part for convenience but mostly for balance.

Take the player, not the class/spec is a philosophy that is only necessary when there is just one place to take either a player or a class/spec.

[Drpizka]

Leveling up a city is not the same as leveling up a character.

Are you purposely trying to be daft?

In age of empires are you controlling a character?

What does an RPG have that WoW doesnt have. Be concrete if you are capable of such a thing

Me? You are arguing that because it has talents and levels and skills, it can be described as a RPG.


Just because it has these 3 aspects, it doesn't mean that it is pure RPG.

[IxilaFA]

obviously, because after all -what the hell- we are not playing a RPG game...

gee..

There's a big difference between immersion and tedious mechanics that try to emulate real life but pointlessly. I play a lot of D&D and they have mechanics for food and shit but most groups I've played with cut those out because a lot of players, while enjoying RP and immersion, don't exactly care for the process of micro managing your food supply in an RPG.

The same is true of fire in WoW. What's the point of making you carry a Flint and tinder around everywhere if there's no skill required in starting the fire. Why not just make us play a mini game to get the fire going. Then we can play a mini game to hunt food etc etc.

See where I am going here? If they want to embrace immersion it takes a hell of a lot more than saying "you need Flint and tinder in your bags to start a fire." "But I'm a Mage!!"

I just watched a video of all the cool things that happened in WoW that are now gone.

What I saw brought back a lot of what I had forgotten about, but what I have been harping about for a while now. They need to get people back in the world. Kiting Kazzak or the Bronze dragon to a major city was amazing. People did things, saw each other and interacted as a massive community. Classes did things and developers didn't go out of their way to make sure mechanics were not abused. Thus, mechanics did get abused and people did things that made the experience amazing. Giant world pvp by putting quest hubs right next to each other and making you quest side by side with the enemy faction.

If I could contact one Blizzard developer and make a plea it would be to put us back in the world. No more phasing. No more LFG. Please never bring back flying. Make us explore. Make us fight. Make us a community again.

Those things happened because of bugs or poorly designed encounters. And trust me it may have been fun you to kite Kazzak to a city but it wasn't fun for the 100 lowbies just trying to turn in quests.

Also the argument that Blizzard didn't care about abuse and exploits is bullshit. They were just more lenient back then because everything was buggy as hell.

[Deficineiron]

Cata and later expansions are an ever increasing grab for more cash via more subs, sadly the bean counters have no fucking idea what made WoW have so many subs in Wrath. They keep pushing for more accessibility, more convenience, more ease, less interaction, less choices just to get as many subs in as possible but they missed the fact that it was simply a good fucking game. It wasn't that it was the most accessible MMORPG to ever exist that drove it's insane growth it was that PLUS the fact that the game itself was engaging, the story was worth paying attention to, the people in the game were at times worth paying attention to, but those elements also came with some difficulties and plain wrong choices being possible and that couldn't be allowed.

I would point out the following - while I generally agree with most of your post, what made wow have so many subs in wrath was 1) classic and TBC and 2) the move from the9 to netease in china.

tbc closed out over 11 million.

mid-2009 in china wow moved from the9 to netease, and immediately hit new sub highs there and continued to do so sequentially through at least late 2010.

but yes over th years the game more and more feels like design by an accountant measuring every possible metric.

[Drpizka]

There's a big difference between immersion and tedious mechanics that try to emulate real life but pointlessly. I play a lot of D&D and they have mechanics for food and shit but most groups I've played with cut those out because a lot of players, while enjoying RP and immersion, don't exactly care for the process of micro managing your food supply in an RPG.

The same is true of fire in WoW. What's the point of making you carry a Flint and tinder around everywhere if there's no skill required in starting the fire. Why not just make us play a mini game to get the fire going. Then we can play a mini game to hunt food etc etc.

See where I am going here? If they want to embrace immersion it takes a hell of a lot more than saying "you need Flint and tinder in your bags to start a fire." "But I'm a Mage!!"

Those things happened because of bugs or poorly designed encounters. And trust me it may have been fun you to kite Kazzak to a city but it wasn't fun for the 100 lowbies just trying to turn in quests.

Also the argument that Blizzard didn't care about abuse and exploits is bullshit. They were just more lenient back then because everything was buggy as hell.

So, I proposed that:
a)either create servers with these additions that some of us love, or
b)create older versions servers

Thus all you who want arcade action can queue to your LFR and sit on your garrisons, and all us who need a challenge and a bigger RPG feeling can also play and enjoy the game.

[IxilaFA]

obviously, because after all -what the hell- we are not playing a RPG game...

gee..

So, I proposed that:
a)either create servers with these additions that some of us love, or
b)create older versions servers

Thus all you who want arcade action can queue to your LFR and sit on your garrisons, and all us who need a challenge and a bigger RPG feeling can also play and enjoy the game.

Okay first of all don't act superior because you enjoy immersion and pointless mechanics. I don't even do LFR and my signature shows that. Blizzard isn't going to create a server where you need to buy ammunition for your bow and Flint and tinder to make fire. That would be so entirely pointless.

[Drpizka]

Okay first of all don't act superior because you enjoy immersion and pointless mechanics. I don't even do LFR and my signature shows that. Blizzard isn't going to create a server where you need to buy ammunition for your bow and Flint and tinder to make fire. That would be so entirely pointless.

I am not acting superior, and I didn't claim to be one.

On the contrary, I am a super-casual gamer who hates to be rewarded for sitting in his office and working.

Believe me, creating a server in US, a server in EU, and a server in Asia wouldn't cost a thing to Blizzard, and including these things will not take much of their valuable time.

And the fact that these things existed in the past, proves that they weren't pointless

[IxilaFA]

I am not acting superior, and I didn't claim to be one.

On the contrary, I am a super-casual gamer who hates to be rewarded for sitting in his office and working.

Believe me, creating a server in US, a server in EU, and a server in Asia wouldn't cost a thing to Blizzard, and including these things will not take much of their valuable time.

And the fact that these things existed in the past, proves that they weren't pointless

You don't know that it wouldn't cost them a thing. At the very least it would cost them developmental and research time to figure out what should go on that server.

And the fact something existed in the past is most definitely not proof that it wasn't pointless. Even if it did serve some purpose back then, that doesn't mean it serves a purpose now.

[Jibjub]

And the fact something existed in the past is most definitely not proof that it wasn't pointless. Even if it did serve some purpose back then, that doesn't mean it serves a purpose now.

Well, it's not like some technology came along and allowed developers to get rid of ammunition and spell reagents -- at long last! I think the fact that they used to exist is pretty telling. The fact that they had no real, practical purpose was their purpose. To have an immersive world, not everything SHOULD have a purpose. Look at your desk right now ... does everything on it serve a functional purpose?

There was a time when MMOs were developed for people who loved being immersed in a new world. For people who loved to escape and have an adventure. Rewards were NOT the incentive. To dive in and to bei part of something bigger was the incentive.

Now MMOs are developed for people who prefer mobile gaming and quick escapes in between (or during) Netflix episodes. They want rewards for as little effort as possible. They don't want hard choices or big adventure.

It's a shift in gaming (read: gamers) and it's a bummer.

[Deficineiron]

Well, it's not like some technology came along and allowed developers to get rid of ammunition and spell reagents -- at long last! I think the fact that they used to exist is pretty telling. The fact that they had no real, practical purpose was their purpose. To have an immersive world, not everything SHOULD have a purpose. Look at your desk right now ... does everything on it serve a functional purpose?

There was a time when MMOs were developed for people who loved being immersed in a new world. For people who loved to escape and have an adventure. Rewards were NOT the incentive. To dive in and to bei part of something bigger was the incentive.

Now MMOs are developed for people who prefer mobile gaming and quick escapes in between (or during) Netflix episodes. They want rewards for as little effort as possible. They don't want hard choices or big adventure.

It's a shift in gaming (read: gamers) and it's a bummer.

i would argue it is at least as much as anything a shift in game design from games for gamers to mass-market game design. ATVI is damn near a fortune 500 company (I think 520-something on their list for 2015). kotick has been very explicit in wanting to design games that are more accessible for larger groups of people (potential customers). Who needs gamers if that is your goal? The gamer press can be/may be co-opted/bought off.

[Deleted]

They had a lack of content during WoD for sure, but thats how it has been for ever. WoD so far was maybe one of the worse expansions, but thats fine, they tried some new stuff, and some didnt work out. They realized that and already made some amazing changes for legion so far. Even the alpha looks amazing so far.
Questing and Raiding in WoD was absolutely amazing. The dungeons were great and really hard at the start of the expansion. Since i focus on raiding after leveling up i think WoD wasnt bad at all!
But the lack of other activities and Endgamecontent besides raiding was definitively there. But what I played on my legion alpha account so far, looks like its becomeing one of the best expansions.

Also the warcraft movie in mind, and the trailers I have seen, I am absolutely thankful and appreciate all the things that Blizzard has to offer right now and in close future. Really looking forward to the upcoming 6 months! Keep it up blizzard, all those few haters driven by some popular youtubers dont represent your whole fanbase at all, they are just not old enough to have a own opinion, so they follow the rant train. Thats how it is nowadays since everyone thinks he is important. You dont have to do what they expect you to do blizzard, just keep in on with with your great work. They will buy it anyways, cause deep inside they know its the best game outside, and if they dont, good for us, so we dont have to play with them

Just my calmly opinion

[Deleted]

How hard is this to understand lol.
Your enjoyment of the game has absolutely nothing to do with what genre it is.
Thats obvious to a little child.
A game in which you control a character is a roleplaying game.
From my understanding you dont do that in farmville. So no that would be incorrect.
Age of Empires is an example of another game that isnt an RPG.
IF what wow used to be is the only definition of MMO then wow would be the only MMO ever. And thats not true either.
Apparently there is a large difference between what you percieve and what is reality

I would say you control characters in every game. But your logic the garrison would be a fine example of an rpg you control your followers to do stuff...
MMO is a fucking description of a game with a online world and lots and lots of players. Nothing else, you can make an MMO-Racer for gods sake, MMO itself is not a gerne.

Real RPGs: Gothic, Neverwinter Nights, Baldurs Gate or Skyrim. And WoW doesn't even come close to any of these in terms of being an RPG.

[IxilaFA]

Well, it's not like some technology came along and allowed developers to get rid of ammunition and spell reagents -- at long last! I think the fact that they used to exist is pretty telling. The fact that they had no real, practical purpose was their purpose. To have an immersive world, not everything SHOULD have a purpose. Look at your desk right now ... does everything on it serve a functional purpose?

There was a time when MMOs were developed for people who loved being immersed in a new world. For people who loved to escape and have an adventure. Rewards were NOT the incentive. To dive in and to bei part of something bigger was the incentive.

Now MMOs are developed for people who prefer mobile gaming and quick escapes in between (or during) Netflix episodes. They want rewards for as little effort as possible. They don't want hard choices or big adventure.

It's a shift in gaming (read: gamers) and it's a bummer.

So your argument is that Blizzard should add pointless mechanics just for the sake of immersion? That sounds like terrible game design.

I agree that gamers have shifted what they are looking for in a game.

[Deleted]

So your argument is that Blizzard should add pointless mechanics just for the sake of immersion? That sounds like terrible game design.
I agree that gamers have shifted what they are looking for in a game.

A lot of really great games have rather pointless mechanics. Wichter 3, if you are good enough no need for alchemy or magic, but they ADD to the game. Dark Souls has ammunition for ranged weapons, they limit your power so you have to be more aware of what you are doing, again adding to the game.

Or in Vanilla WoW, when mana really mattered. You did not want to overheal EVER each mana point wasted could wipe the group. Adds to the game as an experience, but was made utterly pointless with WotLK.

[IxilaFA]

A lot of really great games have rather pointless mechanics. Wichter 3, if you are good enough no need for alchemy or magic, but they ADD to the game. Dark Souls has ammunition for ranged weapons, they limit your power so you have to be more aware of what you are doing, again adding to the game.

Or in Vanilla WoW, when mana really mattered. You did not want to overheal EVER each mana point wasted could wipe the group. Adds to the game as an experience, but was made utterly pointless with WotLK.

There's a huge difference in what we are talking about here. You are referring to things which can give you a mechanical benefit or have some sort of gameplay attached to them. Ammunition in most games is a popular one because it makes you plan out your attacks and be more conservative or aggressive depending on how much ammo you have. That was never thing in WOW with ammunition. 250 arrows in a stack, buy 6 stacks before every session and you never have to think twice. Components are largely ignored until you need to cast a food table and have no arcane dust. Flint and tender to make a fire is useless because you just clicked it and it made the fire for you. There is no mechanical benefit to any of these things and they can largely be ignored much of the time.

You point about mana is a good point and an example of things that Blizzard should work at making important again. But still it's a much different story than trying to argue that ammunition for Hunters made for engaging gameplay.

[Drpizka]

You don't know that it wouldn't cost them a thing. At the very least it would cost them developmental and research time to figure out what should go on that server.

And the fact something existed in the past is most definitely not proof that it wasn't pointless. Even if it did serve some purpose back then, that doesn't mean it serves a purpose now.

Actually their removal proves that the game is no longer a RPG, but rather an arcade-light-version of a RPG.

[Deleted]

I couldn't agree more my friend, the people who make arguments that vanila/tbc/wrath Is old and just sucked and the new is better have simply never played It... and I feel sad for the people who have been taken away from the Private Server Vanila-Nostalrius, who did get to either experience or re-experience their vanila times. It took effort to do things... to add to what Drpizka said:

As a paladin, you had to use seals, and then judgement, and then seals and over and... out of mana. Oomkins were a thing, a boomkin ran outa mana fast. Warlocks could tank bosses, rogues had to do that questline to learn lockpicking to identifie with their class, as a paladin you had to get your Charger mount. In TBC I get Quel'serrar after grinding for It In Dire Maul... still wasn't as easy as you might think in TBC even 10 levels above It all. I also got the Priest staff, Benediction that was amazing.

Warlock questlines and hunter ones... I never did, and I wish I could've but TBC was coming up and I was just excited to go to the old Orc homeworld as I was a giant orc nerd, and still am.

And If It wasn't for Blizzard's current anti-consumer ways, banning people left and right for nonsensical reasons I'd still be playing. Blizzard has to seriously rethink their stance on everything... banning their 10 year long loyal players Is not the way. Neither Is changing the game so drasticly to help casuals understand It more.