The Legion table - Ion's additional response

[kaid]

order campaigns are a 10/10 feature which Im surprised they didnt market heavier, because its fucking amazing all-around



but now Im going to have to level a priest, monk and rogue too

I really enjoyed the garrison quest thing so I am okay if they are going forward doing something similar to that. A story line stuff they can continue through the expansion thats interesting lore wise and time gated so you don't just blast through it instantly and then forget about it. The mission stuff we will see until its implemented enough on alpha to form an actual opinion.

[SoulSoBreezy]

This is the most wrong-headed approach you could possibly have. All you know about the game is what you see in alpha right now, and there is no reason to assume it is not what you are going to see on launch. Blizzard stating that they're still refining the system is exactly why alpha testers should be extremely vocal in what they do not want in it.

Nothing meaningful should come from the mission table - no story quests, no artifact upgrades, nothing. It should be treated like all optional content which bliz recognizes that many people do not find fun - lock silly things behind it like pets, mount, and toys, maybe xmog stuff. That way no one feels compelled to do it, but it's there as a thing for people who might like it or want foofoo rewards.

It's fine to be vocal, about it, so the response is justified.
But fans have been flipping out over topics that are based on their experience from wod, and not even the mission table's design goals. I feel the response is premature. Heck, you stated that you don't want artifact upgrades tied to the table, and they're not. On top of that, you're suggesting that actual rewards should be locked behind the table, and right now they're not.

There're two criticisms I have about the mission table at the moment:
1. The other artifact weapon questlines are unlocked through a mission that can fail. I suggest either giving the mission 100% guaranteed success, or lifting the requirement altogether.
2. There's an arbitrary quest that asks players to basically complete a number of missions from the table. The narrative behind such a delay in the order hall campaign is lacking and feels like a disconnection, so I suggest either lowering the requirement or lifting the quest altogether, and use a different method of pacing the order hall questline.

There's a difference between feedback and noise. There's a lot of noise, and unfortunately, "I don't like it, take it out" isn't useful feedback.

[Dystemper]

It's fine to be vocal, about it, so the response is justified.
But fans have been flipping out over topics that are based on their experience from wod, and not even the mission table's design goals. I feel the response is premature. Heck, you stated that you don't want artifact upgrades tied to the table, and they're not. On top of that, you're suggesting that actual rewards should be locked behind the table, and right now they're not.

There're two criticisms I have about the mission table at the moment:
1. The other artifact weapon questlines are unlocked through a mission that can fail. I suggest either giving the mission 100% guaranteed success, or lifting the requirement altogether.
2. There's an arbitrary quest that asks players to basically complete a number of missions from the table. The narrative behind such a delay in the order hall campaign is lacking and feels like a disconnection, so I suggest either lowering the requirement or lifting the quest altogether, and use a different method of pacing the order hall questline.

There's a difference between feedback and noise. There's a lot of noise, and unfortunately, "I don't like it, take it out" isn't useful feedback.

The same was said about WOD. The feed back was noise. But Blizz did not listen. Instead we got things like selfie camera as content. Blizzard has been Telling us for years that they know best and they 9 out of 10 times ignore feedback. As a result they have had the largest loss of players in the games history.

[IxilaFA]

This is the most wrong-headed approach you could possibly have. All you know about the game is what you see in alpha right now, and there is no reason to assume it is not what you are going to see on launch. Blizzard stating that they're still refining the system is exactly why alpha testers should be extremely vocal in what they do not want in it.

Nothing meaningful should come from the mission table - no story quests, no artifact upgrades, nothing. It should be treated like all optional content which bliz recognizes that many people do not find fun - lock silly things behind it like pets, mount, and toys, maybe xmog stuff. That way no one feels compelled to do it, but it's there as a thing for people who might like it or want foofoo rewards.

Alpha testers are there to test for bugs and see if there's any major flaws in a feature. They are not in a position tell Blizzard to remove features. "Mission table isn't fun, do X, X and X to maybe make it more exciting." Is good feedback. "Missions suck, learn from your mistakes and take it out Blizz." Is pointless feedback.

[rhorle]

The same was said about WOD. The feed back was noise. But Blizz did not listen. Instead we got things like selfie camera as content. Blizzard has been Telling us for years that they know best and they 9 out of 10 times ignore feedback. As a result they have had the largest loss of players in the games history.

Some people like the selfie camera and it isn't bad content in any way shape or form. Blizzard also has a history of listening to feedback and changing things because of feedback received. Your are arguing from the position that just because they don't listen to the feedback you want it means they are ignoring feedback and are arrogant in their opinion that they are right. Feedback isn't always correct and just because a lot of people want something doesn't mean it is good for the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing meaningful should come from the mission table - no story quests, no artifact upgrades, nothing. It should be treated like all optional content which bliz recognizes that many people do not find fun - lock silly things behind it like pets, mount, and toys, maybe xmog stuff. That way no one feels compelled to do it, but it's there as a thing for people who might like it or want foofoo rewards.

If nothing meaningful can come from it then it should be removed. Optional content still has to be meaningful otherwise it shouldn't be in the game. You don't seem to understand the game or your argument very well. You want people to not feel compelled to do it but then say to lock pets, mounts, toys, and Wardrobe stuff behind the mission table. Half of the reasons why people do stuff and feel compelled to do it is because of pets, mounts, toys, and Wardrobe. The other half is gear/level.

[Huggykaze]

Yes i did because of the ton of gold meaning wow is/was B2P for me, and it will remain so the whole legion exp.
But remove the gold incentive from it, and i can assure you most people will do only the mandatory aspects of it and that is all.
BTW has blizzard confirm in any way that order halls missions will not reward gold as garrisons did?

Well, if the missions will give you outdoor buffs or unlock some activities/quests, then I can assure you, everyone will do it. Let's be honest, idea of governing over some group in an MMO, be it your garrison or order hall, is a fun one. WoD's execution was bad due to very low interaction, Legion seems to remedy this.

[Schizoide]

Alpha testers are there to test for bugs and see if there's any major flaws in a feature. They are not in a position tell Blizzard to remove features. "Mission table isn't fun, do X, X and X to maybe make it more exciting." Is good feedback. "Missions suck, learn from your mistakes and take it out Blizz." Is pointless feedback.

This probably is how Blizzard sees it, but they're wrong. They should accept all feedback as a microcosm of the full playerbase. If a sizable number of alpha testers hate follower missions, they should listen to that feedback and rethink their position. But they won't, guarantee that. They most definitely won't.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Alpha testers are there to test for bugs and see if there's any major flaws in a feature. They are not in a position tell Blizzard to remove features. "Mission table isn't fun, do X, X and X to maybe make it more exciting." Is good feedback. "Missions suck, learn from your mistakes and take it out Blizz." Is pointless feedback.

Pretty much. There's always a group of "we don't like it" when it comes to stuff like this. Always. Just because they're loud about it doesn't make their voice any better heard. Devs have a hard time sifting through a pile like that. Same goes for the silent majority since they're well, silent.

[Huggykaze]

Some people like the selfie camera and it isn't bad content in any way shape or form. Blizzard also has a history of listening to feedback and changing things because of feedback received. Your are arguing from the position that just because they don't listen to the feedback you want it means they are ignoring feedback and are arrogant in their opinion that they are right. Feedback isn't always correct and just because a lot of people want something doesn't mean it is good for the game.

Been down that road before. Ended up with OP Warlocks ('cos bruh! demons!) and Mages. Then we got bullshit WLK dungeons which you had to run for valor, boring yourself to death in something that could probably be soloed at 80...

[Schizoide]

Pretty much. There's always a group of "we don't like it" when it comes to stuff like this. Always. Just because they're loud about it doesn't make their voice any better heard. Devs have a hard time sifting through a pile like that. Same goes for the silent majority since they're well, silent.

So you think a loud minority hates follower missions, and the vast unheard masses of players are silently content? That is really what you think?

[Deleted]

Well, if the missions will give you outdoor buffs or unlock some activities/quests, then I can assure you, everyone will do it.

outdoor buffs would be very interesting if the game is gonna have any kind of difficulty, the questing i mean, and also questing is not end game content for everyone, i for example hate it, i only do quests to level up the char but i do not enjoy them at all.
But yes if those quests give me 4000 gold as the blightron one in the garrison, then yes i will do them.
I have yet to use any of my followers as bodyguard for anything in the game.

[Huggykaze]

This probably is how Blizzard sees it, but they're wrong. They should accept all feedback as a microcosm of the full playerbase. If a sizable number of alpha testers hate follower missions, they should listen to that feedback and rethink their position. But they won't, guarantee that. They most definitely won't.

By no means. If I say: your hairstyle sucks, change it, and you want to cater to my selfishness, you will need to go through many iterations of hairstyle until I'm satisfied, just because I couldn't have been arsed to give you a proper feedback/detailed wish. That's what women do when choosing the restaurant. That's what everybody hates. Feedback has to be detailed and well constructed, otherwise it becomes criticism and is, rightly, ignored.

[Schizoide]

I was really responding to "Alpha testers are there to test for bugs and see if there's any major flaws in a feature. They are not in a position tell Blizzard to remove features." Strongly disagree with that.

Of course there is both good and bad feedback. "This sucks" is not really actionable, while "This sucks because..." is.

[Huggykaze]

outdoor buffs would be very interesting if the game is gonna have any kind of difficulty, the questing i mean, and also questing is not end game content for everyone, i for example hate it, i only do quests to level up the char but i do not enjoy them at all.
But yes if those quests give me 4000 gold as the blightron one in the garrison, then yes i will do them.

Whatever blightron is. How about a quest for the raid boss, rewarding additional loot? Or a quest rewarding a pet/mount? Or maybe old transmog item? Or hefty sum of gold? Don't be pretentious. If you don't like outdoor content, then don't do it. If you don't like mission table in the class hall, then ignore it after finishing your quest line or whatever... That's the idea here, you are NOT forced to do it.

[Schizoide]

you are NOT forced to do it.

If the rewards are attractive, players will be strongly incentivized to do it, same as the WoD garrison.

If all the missions involve the player doing something outside of the class hall, that would obviously be much better than WoD missions rewarding gold.

[Huggykaze]

I was really responding to "Alpha testers are there to test for bugs and see if there's any major flaws in a feature. They are not in a position tell Blizzard to remove features." Strongly disagree with that.

Of course there is both good and bad feedback. "This sucks" is not really actionable, while "This sucks because..." is.

Obviously, but keep in mind that removing a feature because some group doesn't like it is the worst thing they can do. Alpha testers are by no means representation of WoW's playerbase. Furthermore, even if the feature is small and optional, if it's cut people will call for something in return. Then they'll either have to add something rushed or spend shitton of time coming up with something decent.

[Deleted]

Whatever blightron is. How about a quest for the raid boss, rewarding additional loot? Or a quest rewarding a pet/mount? Or maybe old transmog item? Or hefty sum of gold? Don't be pretentious. If you don't like outdoor content, then don't do it. If you don't like mission table in the class hall, then ignore it after finishing your quest line or whatever... That's the idea here, you are NOT forced to do it.

Ane we are also not forced to play this game. Just saying that you migh not have players to play with after Legion.

[Deleted]

If you don't like mission table in the class hall, then ignore it after finishing your quest line or whatever... That's the idea here, you are NOT forced to do it.

That is exactly what i said, i will do the mandatory part and then let it be unless it gives me gold, and please where the fuk did i say anything about being forced to do it?
I only said i am doing garrison missions because they let me play for free, when did i say i was forced to do them? or even better where did i say i was against garrison missions to begin with?

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

People just bitch about everything these days, I swear.

The new system is definitely different, they've been saying it since fricken Gamescom, and people want to take apart the small parts of the table that ARE IN, dissect them, and make it into something it isn't.

Simple as that, people overreacting over nothing.

Yup. Very well said. Anyone who takes the time to read this, take a deep breath. Look closely at this thread as well as this topic as a whole and understand its not the Garrison that made WoD bad, its YOU. When you, a person who is paying to play a video game, sits here and denounces said video game because of a single proposed addition after all else Legion has proposed, you aren't the able to contribute to this game's future.

The point I'm trying to make is, to all the people who said they aren't coming back to Legion because of this proposed change:
Stay gone. The game has nothing for you, and you are a waste of space in the community. Please actually leave the community too if you aren't going to play the game.
Stop sitting at your computer and commenting on every WoW related news if you aren't even playing. Your over-reactions to nonsense are ruining this game, and as we can PLAINLY see here, ruining this company as well.

Look at that fucking response from Ion. That's the SECOND one too. You know why? Because you overreacted at the first one too.
No matter what they add to this system, no matter what they add to the game, if your defining success factor of an expansion is something you do alone in an MMO you need to quit.

[SoulSoBreezy]

This probably is how Blizzard sees it, but they're wrong. They should accept all feedback as a microcosm of the full playerbase. If a sizable number of alpha testers hate follower missions, they should listen to that feedback and rethink their position. But they won't, guarantee that. They most definitely won't.

If.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20742830178