The State of WoW (my ranty opinion)

[Deleted]

There's a huge difference in what we are talking about here. You are referring to things which can give you a mechanical benefit or have some sort of gameplay attached to them. Ammunition in most games is a popular one because it makes you plan out your attacks and be more conservative or aggressive depending on how much ammo you have. That was never thing in WOW with ammunition. 250 arrows in a stack, buy 6 stacks before every session and you never have to think twice. Components are largely ignored until you need to cast a food table and have no arcane dust. Flint and tender to make a fire is useless because you just clicked it and it made the fire for you. There is no mechanical benefit to any of these things and they can largely be ignored much of the time.

You point about mana is a good point and an example of things that Blizzard should work at making important again. But still it's a much different story than trying to argue that ammunition for Hunters made for engaging gameplay.

But they could make ammunition engaging, simply have 2 slots for it and you can switch between them. Example: Normal arrows with high damage and poison arrows that apply a stacking poison debuff (with a really short uptime so you need the arrows instead of an abillity) Now give another class a synergy with the poison debuff.
If you don't have that class in your group, maybe the normal arrows are better, but with the class you change it to help the group.

In general synergys would really make groups a lot more important and fun. Just don't make the synergys mandatory for dungeons/raids and not to noticeable (give or take 1 to 2% Raid DPS increase). They would increased the immerson factor, give a reason to group up in world content and bring back rpg aspects to the game.

[IxilaFA]

I couldn't agree more my friend, the people who make arguments that vanila/tbc/wrath Is old and just sucked and the new is better have simply never played It... and I feel sad for the people who have been taken away from the Private Server Vanila-Nostalrius, who did get to either experience or re-experience their vanila times. It took effort to do things... to add to what Drpizka said:

As a paladin, you had to use seals, and then judgement, and then seals and over and... out of mana. Oomkins were a thing, a boomkin ran outa mana fast. Warlocks could tank bosses, rogues had to do that questline to learn lockpicking to identifie with their class, as a paladin you had to get your Charger mount. In TBC I get Quel'serrar after grinding for It In Dire Maul... still wasn't as easy as you might think in TBC even 10 levels above It all. I also got the Priest staff, Benediction that was amazing.

Warlock questlines and hunter ones... I never did, and I wish I could've but TBC was coming up and I was just excited to go to the old Orc homeworld as I was a giant orc nerd, and still am.

And If It wasn't for Blizzard's current anti-consumer ways, banning people left and right for nonsensical reasons I'd still be playing. Blizzard has to seriously rethink their stance on everything... banning their 10 year long loyal players Is not the way. Neither Is changing the game so drasticly to help casuals understand It more.

Not to go off topic but they don't ban people for anything and everything. If you got permanent banned and they won't overturn it, you probably got banned for a good eason.

[Pantalaimon]

I still see & hear about people who have discussions with other players about if the talent they chose is really good for <insert content here>. The conversations & agreement/disagreement still happen, it doesn't need a long talent tree system for that to occur. Making 'bad' choices is still possible in WoW, though I would argue that removing reforging reduced this slightly, because you can end up collecting gear with your two worst secondary stats versus better ones for whatever the content is and players still have the choice to perform their rotation/priority system optimally or suboptimally. However, I don't see why you'd want an MMORPG's identity to be defined by how easy it is for players to NOT perform to the best of their ability in terms of numbers/utility for the sake of having detrimental options available.

As for the class quests the class order halls in Legion will be giving us more than what the other previous expansions gave us. Aside from the green fire lock quest in MoP the only thing that I really remember that was that specific to my class was going into Sunken Temple for my shaman quest, and then the bow quest for hunters but that one was much more extensive to that class. Most classes had maybe one or two small quests & they were done.

[Deficineiron]

folks debating removal of rpg features miss the point - the goal isn't rpg/not rpg, it is simplification, to attract/retain a broader potential playerbase.

important to look at blizz decisions within the framework of what THEY want or are trying to achieve, and realize as often as not it has very little to do with what players want or don't want at all. it has a LOT to do with what they (collectively) think will have the best impact on their business model within the parameters of what is possible with the resources they invest and the chosen marketing direction.

linear questing, no more cross-zone quests (even relatively close ones like stalvan), much lower death rates and gy run times, mobs that have 'tickle' as their primary attack, removal of threat, etc. Many here are debating about this tree or that tree and not realizing there is a forest in front of them worthy of comment. The forest is called a game being made more accessible to a larger potential player pool.

[Sabever]

Those things happened because of bugs or poorly designed encounters. And trust me it may have been fun you to kite Kazzak to a city but it wasn't fun for the 100 lowbies just trying to turn in quests.

Also the argument that Blizzard didn't care about abuse and exploits is bullshit. They were just more lenient back then because everything was buggy as hell.

I am sorry that I have to always explain a post to someone on MMO champion. So many posters miss the point and point to one detail in a post. The point was not the exploit that people used it was the fact that people were out in the open world doing things. The exploit was not game breaking, and did not cause them to make more gold or have more loot. Those are fine. Not only that, but you call it an exploit, I call it an unintended ability done by someone using their powers in the way they could. No one got banned for this. No one got in trouble.

Trust you that kiting Kazzak to the city was not fun for the 100 lowbies? Define fun? I think they had a chance to witness something amazing. Something that maybe made them wonder what things they could do or what they might see if they logged in today. Yes they died. But I died a little when I read your whiney post.

[Jibjub]

So your argument is that Blizzard should add pointless mechanics just for the sake of immersion? That sounds like terrible game design.

I agree that gamers have shifted what they are looking for in a game.

My argument is that they are not pointless at all. The game might be playable without them but these ideas and concepts still serve a very real emotional purpose for the player. If you can't understand that basic premise then you will probably never understand what many people loved about early MMOs and what made WoW a huge success.

[Deficineiron]

Those things happened because of bugs or poorly designed encounters. And trust me it may have been fun you to kite Kazzak to a city but it wasn't fun for the 100 lowbies just trying to turn in quests.

Also the argument that Blizzard didn't care about abuse and exploits is bullshit. They were just more lenient back then because everything was buggy as hell.

I hadn't caught this claim before.

Can you provide any, ANY, citation or evidence aside from your claim itself that this is remotely true? Were you ever in /2 when a boss was kited to a city? was your /2 full of 'whaa i cannot turn in my quest'?

this is a silly claim and a bit arrogant at that (to claim to speak for every lowbie in that situation).

[Sabever]

I hadn't caught this claim before.

Can you provide any, ANY, citation or evidence aside from your claim itself that this is remotely true? Were you ever in /2 when a boss was kited to a city? was your /2 full of 'whaa i cannot turn in my quest'?

this is a silly claim and a bit arrogant at that (to claim to speak for every lowbie in that situation).

He is still wallowing in whatever sorrow he can drum up.

[IxilaFA]

My argument is that they are not pointless at all. The game might be playable without them but these ideas and concepts still serve a very real emotional purpose for the player. If you can't understand that basic premise then you will probably never understand what many people loved about early MMOs and what made WoW a huge success.

Considering I used to play back in Vanilla/TBC I think I can speak for what made MMOs so much fun initially just as well as you can. Get over yourself. You aren't the only one in the world that knows why MMOs are fun and what makes them engaging.

Since this whole thread has turned into nothing but mud slinging and making up arguments I'm done.

[Deficineiron]

Considering I used to play back in Vanilla/TBC I think I can speak for what made MMOs so much fun initially just as well as you can. Get over yourself. You aren't the only one in the world that knows why MMOs are fun and what makes them engaging.

Since this whole thread has turned into nothing but mud slinging and making up arguments I'm done.

Wait - dont leave!! I am keen to known the basis for the kazzak claim. It wasn't a made-up argument was it?

[Sabever]

Considering I used to play back in Vanilla/TBC I think I can speak for what made MMOs so much fun initially just as well as you can. Get over yourself. You aren't the only one in the world that knows why MMOs are fun and what makes them engaging.

Since this whole thread has turned into nothing but mud slinging and making up arguments I'm done.

Well honestly you seem like you should work at Blizz. It seems that thousands of people on MMO champ seem to think that we should be doing things in the world and the other six people that disagree seem to be the ones developing content. So, what day was it that Kazzak killed you again?

[PixelFox]

“Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.”

Yeah, doing all that mundane crap in an RPG is annoying and painful, but without effort rewards mean nothing.

But we all loved each and every one of those quality of life and "convenience" improvements as they were added to WoW over the years, even though they were slowly killing the game.

Basically Blizzard is only guilty of "bad parenting" where the children scream that they don't want to eat their vegetables and just want pies and cakes to eat all the time, and the parent gives in and does exactly what the child demands.

[Deleted]

You know what? I look back at when I started at the beginning of TBC on a new, freshly made server. It was great, everyone was levelling because there were no max level characters, there were plenty of people around, it was fun. I miss that.

Then I spend a few minutes dreaming about how cool it would be to do again. Then I think wait... I levelled a holy paladin and it took me something like 11 days /played time to hit max level. I may be misremembering, it was a long time ago, but holy fuck. Either way, it took way, way more than the week real time it just took me to level an alt a couple of months back.

Then i remember the fact that I would rather have gouged my eyes out with a rusty spoon than level an alt - So really, was it that much fun the first time around, or did I enjoy it for the anticipation of hitting max level? And the one time was enough to fulfill that? It was never actually hard, it was just fucking tedious.

Then I think back to my TBC raid career as a Ret Paladin. Yes, I was RET. I had like, 3 buttons and one of those was a self-buff that I had to ensure was active for auto attacks but was consumed by judgment. Ret rotation was about as exciting as watching a metronome. Sure, I had a great time back then, I consider it the best time I had in WoW, but not for any reasons that have been affected by Blizzard to any great extent. Community spirit hasn't been ruined by Blizzard as much as people give them credit for. Sure, people aren't forced to play with people on the same server so they aren't forced to be nice to each other any more, and sure my friends list outside guild members looks barren as fuck compared to the old days, but Blizzard doesn't encourage or engender the kind of toxic shit that's become the standard of the day on the Internet. It's not Blizzard's fault everyone's turned into whiny, self-entitled brats who demand everything their way and refuse to see the other side of the argument. That's just the nature of people. Ask how to play your class in trade these days, and the politest response you're likely to get is "google it, you fuck". I exaggerate a little, but only a little.

I mean, just look at the majority of threads on this cesspool of a site. You know what the problem is? You. Me. Everyone's an asshole online, and the only thing Blizzard did is provide a playground that we play in. But the roundabout doesn't go as fast as we remember, and the swings are too low, and the floor has those stupid rubber mats so you cant scuff your knees on like the hard, hard concrete that scarred my knees as a lad.

[Sabever]

“Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something.”

Yeah, doing all that mundane crap in an RPG is annoying and painful, but without effort rewards mean nothing.

But we all loved each and every one of those quality of life and "convenience" improvements as they were added to WoW over the years, even though they were slowly killing the game.

Basically Blizzard is only guilty of "bad parenting" where the children scream that they don't want to eat their vegetables and just want pies and cakes to eat all the time, and the parent gives in and does exactly what the child demands.

There is a lot of merit to this. We all thought it was great when some of these features were added. But what it did to the world made us realize that it was actually bad. Did I like waiting an hour to get into an instance? No. But it made the adventure so much more rewarding when things happened in that improved game relationships or was something cool you had never seen before. It was almost as if the game, at one time was being developed by players. Not by code.

[Jibjub]

Considering I used to play back in Vanilla/TBC I think I can speak for what made MMOs so much fun initially just as well as you can. Get over yourself. You aren't the only one in the world that knows why MMOs are fun and what makes them engaging.

Since this whole thread has turned into nothing but mud slinging and making up arguments I'm done.

Mud slinging? How young are you?

All I said was if you have trouble understanding that immersive things (even if they have no direct gameplay NEED or apparent impact) are GOOD for the game and the psychology of the player then you'll struggle to understand many of the arguments being brought up in this post.

For example, the visual representation of your character is, in all actuality, useless. Texture-less, gray humanoid figures could very well be used as your in-game token to represent your -- the player's -- movements and actions in game. BUT, seeing a character -- one of many different races -- with her own look and personality is GOOD for the game because it is immersive for the player. It helps the player leave his own world and join a new one. It is the great connector.

The argument here is that many QoL changes have killed these great connectors, leaving many players feeling disconnected from the game and its world. The more disconnected you are -- and I would say many deliberate decisions have been made by Blizzard to remove the connection -- the harder it is to be excited by expansions or new features or even the story in the game.

Arrows, for a Role-Player (the R and the P in RPG), are essential for connection ... even if, practically speaking, they are pointless (pun) and silly.

[Sabever]

Mud slinging? How young are you?

All I said was if you have trouble understanding that immersive things (even if they have no direct gameplay NEED or apparent impact) are GOOD for the game and the psychology of the player then you'll struggle to understand many of the arguments being brought up in this post.

For example, the visual representation of your character is, in all actuality, useless. Texture-less, gray humanoid figures could very well be used as your in-game token to represent your -- the player's -- movements and actions in game. BUT, seeing a character -- one of many different races -- with her own look and personality is GOOD for the game because it is immersive for the player. It helps the player leave his own world and join a new one. It is the great connector.

The argument here is that many QoL changes have killed these great connectors, leaving many players feeling disconnected from the game and its world. The more disconnected you are -- and I would say many deliberate decisions have been made by Blizzard to remove the connection -- the harder it is to be excited by expansions or new features or even the story in the game.

Arrows, for a Role-Player (the R and the P in RPG), are essential for connection ... even if, practically speaking, they are pointless (pun) and silly.

Great post! Soul shards, filled my bag. I had to go hand in all the time to make bag space. But it was awesome and I loved it.

[Vaerys]

folks debating removal of rpg features miss the point - the goal isn't rpg/not rpg, it is simplification, to attract/retain a broader potential playerbase.

important to look at blizz decisions within the framework of what THEY want or are trying to achieve, and realize as often as not it has very little to do with what players want or don't want at all. it has a LOT to do with what they (collectively) think will have the best impact on their business model within the parameters of what is possible with the resources they invest and the chosen marketing direction.

linear questing, no more cross-zone quests (even relatively close ones like stalvan), much lower death rates and gy run times, mobs that have 'tickle' as their primary attack, removal of threat, etc. Many here are debating about this tree or that tree and not realizing there is a forest in front of them worthy of comment. The forest is called a game being made more accessible to a larger potential player pool.

Broadening the appeal has reduced the depth of the experience, to the detriment of those who enjoyed the older style.

[Deficineiron]

Broadening the appeal has reduced the depth of the experience, to the detriment of those who enjoyed the older style.

I tend to agree. It is a marginally relevant point, from the postulated viewpoint of Activision-Blizzard.

[Vaerys]

I tend to agree. It is a marginally relevant point, from the postulated viewpoint of Activision-Blizzard.

The long-term implications of driving away a devoted audience by deliberately appealing to a more fickle audience may not be as irrelevant as they seem when viewed through the lens of quarterly reports. The phrase 'jumping the shark' comes to mind.

[Jibjub]

Broadening the appeal has reduced the depth of the experience, to the detriment of those who enjoyed the older style.

I am not even comfortable calling it the "older style" (though it vary may well prove to be that).

I think it is just a /different/ style. For example, it always irks me to no end when people criticize new MMOs for having "the same old boring tab-target combat" ... as if combat is the only possible and necessary innovation for the next-gen MMO. It also pre-supposes that action combat was just not possible with older MMOs (not the case!) until new tech has been developed (even though most action MMORPGs tend to lead to shallow combat or what I call combat fatigue). Yet, when a new FPS comes out no one seems to say "oh lame... it's the same old fast-paced, target-based shooting combat" ...

Tab-Target, like turn-based, is just a type of combat. And old =/= outdated. It's not "outdated" any more than the three-act story structure is "outdated."

But I had a point to this post. And while I agree with you ... I hope that we see a resurgence in the "older style" of MMOs and even if I am no longer able to play them because of work/job/wife/kids ... I hope others out there get to experience losing yourself completely in a new world. Because THAT is what MMORPGs are supposed to do. And, in our search for convenience and quick rewards, in our lack of understanding that you cannot have an adventure without being first very inconvenience, we are depriving a new generation of gamers from a very wonderful experience.