Holy Nathrezim

[Cheapnecrolyte]

it's merely stated that demons originated from the clash of Light and Void occurred in the Nether. Nothing is said about them inherently possessing fel magic in their bodies, only exception are the constructs like infernals and abyssals, crafted from matter and fel energy by other demons.

I don't know what point you're trying to prove here. Fel magic does exists in the Nether.

Arcane is defined as an extremely volatile magic requiring great precision to be harnessed. When Demons are mentioned, it's said that many demons indulged in the highly volatile energy that pervaded the Nether. And then others learned to wield the all-consuming fel magic.

Eh, the difference between fel (the language of chaos) and arcane (the language of order) seems to be a difference established by opinion rather than fact. We definitely have the arcane user Iyyokuk the Lucid claiming Chaos is order unrecognized by a lesser mind!

As you see, the first (Arcane) are specifically said to pervade the Nether, the latter (Fel) not.

Fel can be considered volatile and I'm just curious as to why arcane (order) pervades a place stated to be beyond the limits of order in one of the War of the Ancients novels.

Fel doesn't naturally pervade anything

I'm pretty sure fel does pervade the Nether

it can exist in the Nether

Fel magic does exist in the Nether.

it doesn't have a source

If demons contain fel magic, they can be considered a source of it - which is why I don't like the fact that Sean Copeland claimed demons aren't the source of fel magic.

The power of Disorder can exist in the Nether

It does exist in the Nether. If demons contain fel magic and demons are in the Nether, fel magic exists in the Nether. Of course fel magic naturally exists in the Nether if demons are born there.

[Deleted]

Eh, the difference between arcane and fel seems to be a difference established by opinion rather than fact.

Actually, no. Because the Nether is considered the chaotic toxic waste dimension of Creation. The demons born in the Nether exist to spread disorder, while the Titan and the Naaru order the Great Dark Beyond. It was Sargeras, a living Order being, that brought order and discipline to the Nether.

All the Titans were weak against Fel, Sargeras becoming the exception because of his fight against the demons for eons.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Actually, no.

Actually yes, because it's stated that the titans' goal was to create "order from chaos" and one might argue that you cannot create order from chaos. And I'm just curious in what sense is arcane "order" when energies - naturally - are chaotic in the sense that they want to spread out and become disorderly.

Meh, the arcane user Iyyokuk definitely thinks fel (the language of chaos) is arcane (the language of order):

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Paragons_of...uk_the_Lucid_2
Chaos is order unrecognized by a lesser mind!

[Deleted]

Actually yes, because it's stated that the titans' goal was to create "order from chaos" and one might argue that you cannot create order from chaos. The arcane user definitely believes fel is arcane.

Changed with the Chronicle. The Titans' goal is to order the worlds in the possibility that those worlds have a Titan soul. The Titans are living planets.

The arcane is not fel because the Titans' blood is arcane and they are weak against fel. The Well of Eternity is a Titan blood pool.

That Paragon is actually talking about Void and the Black Empire.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Changed with the Chronicle.

Actually, it wasn't changed with the Chronicle.

The Chronicle establishes that a burgeoning word-soul can be so vast that it consumes much of Spirit, causing elemental spirits to "descend" into disorder. To ascertain whether a world-soul was present within a world, the Pantheon titans would pacify elemental spirits, re-order things, then establish a machine that would destroy shit if they fell into disorder.

Basically, a word-soul causes disorder then re-orders from it as a titan. If titans aren't trying to "create order from chaos", why re-order things? There is no chaos.

The arcane is not fel because the Titans' blood is arcane

The arcane user Iyyokuk the Lucid would like to disagree with you. If volatile arcane energies--the lifeblood of a titan--are the opposite of destructive fel energies, destructive fel energies would be the "deathblood" of a titan - which would explain why all titans are susceptible to fel magic.
-
I'm just curious, why are volatile arcane energies--the lifeblood of a nascent titan--believed to be from a realm stated to be demonic? Volatile arcane energies--the lifeblood of a nascent titan--would be from the Great Dark Beyond because titans exist in the Great Dark Beyond, not the Nether. Demonic energies would be from the Twisting Nether - which was stated to be a demonic realm.

You know what? It seems like the existence of demonic magic is non-canon.

Sean claims that demons aren't the source of the demonic fel magic? In what sense is demonic magic demonic if demons aren't the source of it? How can demonic magic be demonic if a warlock can create fel magic without demons?

That Paragon is actually talking about Void and the Black Empire.

That Paragon states "Chaos is order unrecognized by a lesser mind!" - a statement that doesn't have anything to do with the Void or the Black Empire.

[Enthralled]

And I'm just curious, why are volatile energies--the lifeblood of a nascent titan--believed to be from a realm stated to be demonic?

It isn't from a demonic realm.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

It isn't from a demonic realm.

The Twisting Nether was stated to be a demonic realm and it seems there are those who believe arcane energies are from the Twisting Nether. /shrug

It's annoying me - the fact that there are those who'd claim that volatile arcane energies (the forces of order) exist in - and are derived from - a demonic realm stated to be a place beyond the limits of order. Makes me want to shove a battering ram through my***

[frogger237]

If demons contain fel magic, they can be considered a source of it - which is why I don't like the fact that Sean Copeland claimed demons aren't the source of fel magic.

Human beings contain water that doesn't mean we are considered a source of it (unless your talking about the Tank Girl movie)

[Qualia]

I find it funny that people were telling @Rainforest the exact same thing here - that according to Chronicle, not all demons inherently possess with Fel, yet he still argued about it in another thread. Talk about being stubborn.

Eh, the difference between fel (the language of chaos) and arcane (the language of order) seems to be a difference established by opinion rather than fact. We definitely have the arcane user Iyyokuk the Lucid claiming Chaos is order unrecognized by a lesser mind!

You may want to take the NPC's quotes, especially battle quotes, with a grain of salt. They are subjected to being Unreliable Narrator and can be wrong - it's not the first time an NPC said something that turned out to be wrong. DaveKosak already stated that Arcane and Fel are different as a matter of fact

Fel is language of chaos, arcane is language of order. Same spectrum, opposite ends! (The RPG books aren't considered canon)(Dave Kosak)

And I don't see anyone claiming that Arcane energies are from Twisting Nether. It pervade the Twisting Nether, doesn't mean it came from it.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Human beings contain water that doesn't mean we are considered a source of it

If humans contain water, we can be considered a source of water. You seem to not understand the definition of source, so I'll help you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=sour...hrome&ie=UTF-8

a place, person, or thing from which something comes or can be obtained.

^If demons contain fel magic, they are beings from which something comes or can be obtained.

- - - Updated - - -

Talk about being stubborn.

States the person unwilling to acknowledge that the Chronicle doesn't retcon what Sean stated, which is that demons contain fel magic.

You may want to take the NPC's quotes, especially battle quotes, with a grain of salt.

Like how I should take your quotes with a grain of salt?

DaveKosak already stated that Arcane and Fel are different as a matter of fact

And you know what else? The Chronicle establishes that fel magic and nature magic, the energies OF life, are different even though fel magic is the magic of life in the sense that without life, highly destructive fel magic can't be fueled.

And I don't see anyone claiming that Arcane energies are from Twisting Nether. It pervade the Twisting Nether, doesn't mean it came from it.

I didn't state someone claimed that arcane energies are from the Nether on this thread.

[Qualia]

Like how I should take your quotes with a grain of salt?

I'm serious and mean no offense, but.. is WoW the first fiction that you read / watch / play? Are you really incapable of differentiating Unreliable Narrator and Word of God? I even attached the link to the tropes for you to read. Look it up, then maybe you can see the different between my quote from Dave Kosak and yours from an in-game NPC. That doesn't mean Kosak's quote are always canon, however, it is definitely canon until another official source state otherwise in a later date.

And you know what else? The Chronicle establishes that fel magic and nature magic, the energies OF life, are different even though fel magic is the magic of life in the sense that without life, highly destructive fel magic can't be fueled.

Both you and I know that they are different so I'm not sure what is your point here. Nature magic is life giving, while Fel magic use life as a fuel. Just like how a surgeon and a murderer are different even though both their "jobs" (if murderer can be considered a job) involve life. Or are you trying to play with semantics?

[Cheapnecrolyte]

That doesn't mean Kosak's quote are always canon, however, it is definitely canon

I'd Kosak's quote aren't always canon, how is his quote canon canon?

That doesn't mean Kosak's quote are always canon, however, it is definitely canon until another official source state otherwise in a later date.

Until another official state otherwise in a later date, Sean Copeland's statement that demons contain fel magic is still canon.

And no, the Chronicle does not explicitly contradict Sean's statement. It doesn't even conflict with Sean's statement for that matter.

]you and I know that they are different

They're different to you because you feign ignorance.

Nature magic is life giving

Nature magic is fueled by life energy.

[QUOTE=Qualia;39801795Fel magic use life as a fuel.[/QUOTE]

Fel magic uses life as a power source and is therefore a form of life magic. It can definitely be used to heal via drain life.

[Qualia]

I'd Kosak's quote aren't always canon, how is his quote canon canon?

Nothing is permanently canon, unless the fiction of which the statements were made for end. We only discuss based on what is canon at the moment of the discussion. It might or might not be canon in the future - if another Blizzard poster post something contradicts it, then Kosak's quote will stop being canon. However, for now, it is canon and is indisputable fact - even if he is wrong, the Lore will have to change itself to make it true (unless he make another statement after) - that's how WoG works. An NPC, on the other hand, are subjected to being wrong. We already have an NPC claiming that the Old Gods can't die, and another NPC kept a record of C'Thun defeating a Titan - neither are true anymore.

Until another official state otherwise in a later date, Sean Copeland's statement that demons contain fel magic is still canon.

And no, the Chronicle does not explicitly contradict Sean's statement. It doesn't even conflict with Sean's statement for that matter.

If Sean's statement means that *SOME* demons contain Fel magic, and not all - then yes, it's still canon.
If his statement means that *ALL* demons contain Fel magic - which is what you are arguing for - then nope, it is no longer canon. People have explained it over and over for you so I won't bother retyping everything, but you should have already know the gist of it.

They're different to you because you feign ignorance.

Nature magic is fueled by life energy.

Fel magic uses life as a power source and is therefore a form of life magic. It can definitely be used to heal via drain life.

A tank and an airplane are both fueled by gasoline. Are they the same? Are you saying that everything can be considered the same as long as they share one aspect? To be honest, the fact that you even suggested Nature magic and Fel magic aren't different pretty much tell us you are helpless.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

If his statement means that *ALL* demons contain Fel magic - which is what you are arguing for - then nope, it is no longer canon.

Still having a difficult time understanding the difference between containing and wielding eh?

Chronicle states some demons learned to wield the all-consuming powers of fel magic = Demons still contain fel magic

I won't bother retyping everything

A tank and an airplane are both fueled by gasoline. Are they the same?

Nope, but they are similar.

Are you saying that everything can be considered the same as long as they share one aspect?

No, I'm stating that both nature and fel uses life energy and are therefore the same UNTIL a difference is provided.

To be honest, the fact that you even suggested Nature magic and Fel magic aren't different pretty much tell us you are helpless.

The fact that you believe the Chronice contradicts Sean's statement, when it doesn't, tells me you're useless.

[Zulkhan]

I don't know what point you're trying to prove here. Fel magic does exists in the Nether.

Fel magic exists everywhere, fel energy nowhere. You create fel energy by practicing fel magic, which requires the destruction of life energy.

You said Fel magic is an intergral part of the Nether (untrue) and so Demons have all Fel within (untrue).

Eh, the difference between fel (the language of chaos) and arcane (the language of order) seems to be a difference established by opinion rather than fact. We definitely have the arcane user Iyyokuk the Lucid claiming Chaos is order unrecognized by a lesser mind!

The ramblings of a dude who sees Chaos as an alternative form of Order means jackshit. Arcane and Fel are objectively different and their nature is described and explained in the Chronicle, which is the equivalent of a Warcraft bible and shits on all in-game quotes and assumptions of lore characters.

Fel can be considered volatile

Except only Arcane is considered "innately volatile". Fel energies are described as violent, brutal and extremely addictive.

and I'm just curious as to why arcane (order) pervades a place stated to be beyond the limits of order in one of the War of the Ancients novels.

Arcane can twist and mutate everything when is excessive. The Nether is a twisted version of our reality and the Arcane saturates the place.

I'm pretty sure fel does pervade the Nether

Nowhere is mentioned that Fel "pervades" the Nether. The Arcane does, though.

Fel magic does exist in the Nether.

Again, Fel magic exists everywhere, you can use it everywhere, but Fel energy exists only through the act of destroying life. It doesn't naturally exists anywhere.

If demons contain fel magic

They're don't. The Chronicle clarified the origins of demons and has nothing to do with Fel. It's also stated which demons are created through the manipulation of matter and Fel energy, these are the infernals and abyssals alone, created by other demons practicing Fel magic.

It does exist in the Nether. If demons contain fel magic and demons are in the Nether, fel magic exists in the Nether. Of course fel magic naturally exists in the Nether if demons are born there.

Fel energies don't naturally exist and Demons don't naturally contain any of it within them. The WC Encyclopedia said that Fel energies are necessary to turn a mortal into a demon; that's true. It doesn't mean in the slightest that demons native of the Twisting Nether have any degree of Fel energy within.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Fel magic exists everywhere

Source?

fel energy nowhere.

Source?

You create fel energy by practicing fel magic

Fel energy and fel magic are terms that have been used interchangeably by Blizzard.

You said Fel magic is an intergral part of the Nether (untrue) and so Demons have all Fel within (untrue).

Stop taking my words out of context. I stated that fel magic naturally exists in the Nether because demons contain fel magic - which is what Sean stated - and demons exists in the Nether.

Arcane and Fel are objectively different and their nature is described and explained in the Chronicle, which is the equivalent of a Warcraft bible and shits on all in-game quotes and assumptions of lore characters.

Warlock magics can be considered volatile. Are warlock magics arcane?

only Arcane is considered "innately volatile". Fel energies are described as violent, brutal and extremely addictive.

Where is your source stating that only arcane is considered innately volatile?

Arcane can twist and mutate everything when is excessive. The Nether is a twisted version of our reality and the Arcane saturates the place.

Arcane energies WOULD NOT saturate a realm described as demonic (the Nether). Demonic energies would.

The Nether - the chaos from which demons are from - was stated to be beyond the limits of order (which is commonly perceived in reality as arcane). IN NO SENSE is arcane (order) from a demonic realm beyond order's limits.

The Chronicle clarified the origins of demons and has nothing to do with Fel.

The Chronicle doesn't contradict Sean's statement that demons contain fel magic what-so-ever and if you claim it does, you forfeit any chance of "winning" this argument

Fel energies don't naturally exist

Yes they do.

Demons don't naturally contain any of it within them.

Yes they do.

The WC Encyclopedia said that Fel energies are necessary to turn a mortal into a demon; that's true.

You're misinterpreting the Encyclopedia. The Encyclopedia states that a creature must be infused with fel energy in order to become a demon. It doesn't explicitly state that the creature has to be mortal.

It doesn't mean in the slightest that demons native of the Twisting Nether have any degree of Fel energy within.

If what Sean stated is true, demons native to the Nether do have a degree of fel energy within them.


Perhaps Sean's claim that demons contain fel magic was retcon'ed by the Chronicle?

Chronicle pretty much backed up the claims of the Blizzard Historian. Shocking, isn't it?

^If Sean's claim that demons contain fel magic was retcon'ed by the Chronicle, why did you claim the Chronicle pretty much backed up the Lore Historian's claims?

Seems to me like you're lying.

[shoc]

Jeez dude can we get a TL;DR of what you are trying to say, it's impossible to follow. Also what does anything even have to do with the Holy Nathrezim model?

Chronicle confirms that:

- Demons naturally emerged from the Twisting Nether independent of Fel magic. There are non-Fel creatures in the Twisting Nether (void and arcane entities)
- Eventually, Demons became the first to wield Fel magic, and used it to invade the Great Dark.
- Fel Magic is the opposite of Arcane Magic, where Arcane is the magic of Order, Fel is Disorder. It is chaotic, destructive, and drains life. This is why the Titans are weak to Fel Magic (as the epitome of Arcane).

[Al Gorefiend]

I swear this @Rainforest guy is the same fucking person who played mental gymnastics with Muffinus on Twitter about Deathwing being demonic. Sounds exactly like him.


https://twitter.com/koldun1029/statu...44838757904386

Dude, your crap headcanon is making you a laughing stock amongst the lore community.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Demons naturally emerged from the Twisting Nether independent of Fel magic.

Then why did Sean stated demons contain fel magic as if all do?

Demons became the first to wield Fel magic, and used it to invade the Great Dark.

How were demons in the Nether the first to wield fel magic if fel magic doesn't exist in the Nether? My point is that fel magic exists in - and is deriveable from - the Nether, but Sean - who is treated like he is always right believes warlocks can't.

your crap headcanon is making you a laughing stock amongst the lore community.

I don't have headcanon, so you're making yourself a laughing stock

[shoc]

Then why did Sean stated demons contain fel magic as if all do?



How were demons the first to wield fel magic if fel magic doesn't exist in the Nether?

Fel Magic is prevalent in the Nether.

Chronicle Page 21: "Many of these aberrations (demons) indulged in the highly volatile energy (fel energy) that pervaded the Nether. Some learned to wield the all-consuming powers of fel magic. Before long, these bloodthirsty demons clawed their way into the physical universe, terrorizing mortal civilizations and bringing ruin to world after world."