[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Sorrior]

*cough* it's still here even after that mess *cough*

Seems like pretty good support for my argument.

..........You...You're joking RIGHT!!!?

The game tanked 2.0 os like an entirely new game it is to 1.0 what gw2 is to gw1 the engines combat leveling almost everything was changed.

If they didn't do what is often considered among the riskiestt moves a company has made with this game it would not exist at all.

No brand name is NOT it's reason for success...Seriously though you have GOT to be joking..

[SodiumChloride]

..........You...You're joking RIGHT!!!?

The game tanked 2.0 os like an entirely new game it is to 1.0 what gw2 is to gw1 the engines combat leveling almost everything was changed.

If they didn't do what is often considered among the riskiestt moves a company has made with this game it would not exist at all.

No brand name is NOT it's reason for success...Seriously though you have GOT to be joking..

I'm saying, if this game wasn't called Final Fantasy, no one will give 2.0 a second look.

Look at Wildstar ... it's practically all but forgotten by the masses.

Let's not pretend that the FF brand didn't help in enabling 2.0 to be a success.

[Sorrior]

I'm saying, if this game wasn't called Final Fantasy, no one will give 2.0 a second look.

Look at Wildstar ... it's practically all but forgotten by the masses.

Let's not pretend that the FF brand didn't help in enabling 2.0 to be a success.

Actually I know alot of people who hate most modern FF games and others who I had to borderline force to try it because 1.0 was THAT bad.

It might have helped in some ways but not NEARLY as much as you think.

[SodiumChloride]

Actually I know alot of people who hate most modern FF games and others who I had to borderline force to try it because 1.0 was THAT bad.

It might have helped in some ways but not NEARLY as much as you think.

The brand name of course isn't enough to make the game a success, as 1.0 proved and if 2.0 sucked ... that will be the end of it.

[Sorrior]

The brand name of course isn't enough to make the game a success, as 1.0 proved and if 2.0 sucked ... that will be the end of it.

Honestly mmos don't seem to follow brand name rules see everest 2 SWTOR LOTRO and mire all are doing OK but have FAR more brand recognition then FFXIV OR Warrant had when wow came out and all are as I said doing ok but none are doing great

[Fadewind]

..........You...You're joking RIGHT!!!?

The game tanked 2.0 os like an entirely new game it is to 1.0 what gw2 is to gw1 the engines combat leveling almost everything was changed.

If they didn't do what is often considered among the riskiestt moves a company has made with this game it would not exist at all.

No brand name is NOT it's reason for success...Seriously though you have GOT to be joking..

Okay...one thing wrong. GW2 and GW1 run on the exact same engine. This has caused a LOT of optimization problems for GW2.

Anywho, I agree that brand names are not a reason for CONTINUED success, but they are a reason for INITIAL success. WoW was only given the chance to be popular because of both the Warcraft brand (coming off the HUGE success of Warcraft 3) and the Blizzard brand.

I wouldn't put EQ in the same brand category of LotR, Star Wars, or even Warcraft/Blizzard. EQ was still niche as fuck. Hell, even Ultima was less niche.

Compared to other MMOs what set WoW apart was its questing system at the time. Continuous questing...comparatively. As well as being able to run on a toaster. That's what hooked people in. The content updates kept people in.

IMO FFXIV has done the same thing. The gameplay core hasn't changed. And why does it need to? At least in ARR, the biggest change to the MMO landscape was the story. We have better looking MMOs. We have ones with more raids, and better raids. We have ones with more diverse classes and interesting gameplay. But we don't have many that tell an original (well, sorta) story that can continually push out story updates regularly that can both advance a plot and maintain a status quo. I would rather more time go into story and world building than new and innovative gameplay. Because MMOs have to be repetitive. Otherwise, they won't make money to cover server costs.

[Sorrior]

Okay...one thing wrong. GW2 and GW1 run on the exact same engine. This has caused a LOT of optimization problems for GW2.

Anywho, I agree that brand names are not a reason for CONTINUED success, but they are a reason for INITIAL success. WoW was only given the chance to be popular because of both the Warcraft brand (coming off the HUGE success of Warcraft 3) and the Blizzard brand.

I wouldn't put EQ in the same brand category of LotR, Star Wars, or even Warcraft/Blizzard. EQ was still niche as fuck. Hell, even Ultima was less niche.

Compared to other MMOs what set WoW apart was its questing system at the time. Continuous questing...comparatively. As well as being able to run on a toaster. That's what hooked people in. The content updates kept people in.

IMO FFXIV has done the same thing. The gameplay core hasn't changed. And why does it need to? At least in ARR, the biggest change to the MMO landscape was the story. We have better looking MMOs. We have ones with more raids, and better raids. We have ones with more diverse classes and interesting gameplay. But we don't have many that tell an original (well, sorta) story that can continually push out story updates regularly that can both advance a plot and maintain a status quo. I would rather more time go into story and world building than new and innovative gameplay. Because MMOs have to be repetitive. Otherwise, they won't make money to cover server costs.

I meant known to the general populace not gamers and iwoukd bet you anything more people knew about everest the Warcraft back then.

And yeah it can but I am just saying it's not as big a factor in this case as sodium seems tonthink

[Fadewind]

I meant known to the general populace not gamers and iwoukd bet you anything more people knew about everest the Warcraft back then.

And yeah it can but I am just saying it's not as big a factor in this case as sodium seems tonthink

I *HIGHLY* doubt it. You have to remember, prior to WoW, MMO were an extremely niche genre that required upwards of 200 people for a raid on very powerful PCs. They weren't for the every gamer. They weren't for most gamers. Blizzard games have always run well on everything, but never ran great on higher end. Warcraft for the majority of the population did for RTS what WoW did for MMOs. (Especially Warcraft 3.) On top of that, you had the Lost Vikings, Starcraft, and Diablo I and II.

Honestly I doubt any pre-WoW MMO save for FFXI had any kind of brand recognition as strong as the Warcraft AND Blizzard one. Maybe Ultima. (But that was still going from a CRPG to an MMORPG...so genre and settings aren't as varied)

[Deleted]

I just wish that someone would come up with an "action combat" style game where the goal isn't predominately just some variation of "dodge the red".

That's one thing that I like about GW2, the fact that you have to actively defend yourself with abilities. Still, even then the dodge roll takes the center stage most of the time.

It makes for rather boring gameplay much of the time, because it's so one-dimensional. (See: The Division)

Tera? Vindictus?

Not sure how any of these games turned out to be, but when I played them, both where about dodging blocking swings and not circles.
I had an amazing time playing Warrior in Tera and tanking stuff because of that, I'd jump over tailswipes, duck and dash out of cleaves, while also doing damage with the same moves that allow me to be mobile and flank the opponent.

The Lancer class had to actively block hits If I remember correctly.

Same thing in Vindictus.

[Sorrior]

I *HIGHLY* doubt it. You have to remember, prior to WoW, MMO were an extremely niche genre that required upwards of 200 people for a raid on very powerful PCs. They weren't for the every gamer. They weren't for most gamers. Blizzard games have always run well on everything, but never ran great on higher end. Warcraft for the majority of the population did for RTS what WoW did for MMOs. (Especially Warcraft 3.) On top of that, you had the Lost Vikings, Starcraft, and Diablo I and II.

Honestly I doubt any pre-WoW MMO save for FFXI had any kind of brand recognition as strong as the Warcraft AND Blizzard one. Maybe Ultima. (But that was still going from a CRPG to an MMORPG...so genre and settings aren't as varied)

No I get THAT but I am saying that for the general public everesthd been in the news my dad got a laptop with a trial copy. Wow took off by word of mouth and Southpark

But pretty Wow you are correct mmos were ultra niche and even more hard-core. But they lso got alot of sadly bad press. People playing too much being sensational and to the general public everquest was a new very well known. This is pretty WoW and rts even warcraft 3 were not talked about outside gamer circles very much.

In gamer circles I agree Blizzard had a rep for quality on part with Nintendo and valve but to NON gamers they may as well have been an unknown. Everquest WAS known to alot of people back then.

[Kazgrel]

I'm saying, if this game wasn't called Final Fantasy, no one will give 2.0 a second look.

Look at Wildstar ... it's practically all but forgotten by the masses.

Let's not pretend that the FF brand didn't help in enabling 2.0 to be a success.

One huge factor that helped this game after 2.0; Warlords of Draenor. But WoD helped pretty much all MMOs, more or less.

[threads]

I'm saying, if this game wasn't called Final Fantasy, no one will give 2.0 a second look.

Look at Wildstar ... it's practically all but forgotten by the masses.

Let's not pretend that the FF brand didn't help in enabling 2.0 to be a success.

wildstar was a bugged mess with a terrible launch and cartoon graphics. it's failure was on itself.

lots of recent mmos don't have the polished feel that WoW and ffxiv have too. there's almost like a disconnect between char models and the world which kills the experience for me.

[Wrecktangle]

There is at least one mob in game that doesn't telegraph. The Diresaurs @ The Churning Mist have a huge attack with a very obvious wind up animation but no telegraph graphics.

Good tip - the giant troll guys do it too. 2 hand swing AOE, 1 hand swing cone, kinda thing.

I just wish that someone would come up with an "action combat" style game where the goal isn't predominately just some variation of "dodge the red".

That's one thing that I like about GW2, the fact that you have to actively defend yourself with abilities. Still, even then the dodge roll takes the center stage most of the time.

It makes for rather boring gameplay much of the time, because it's so one-dimensional. (See: The Division)

Ok, instead of you and I butting heads all the time, why don't you just come play a little BNS casually with me. I think it has some elements you'd like. I'm a Cerulean on the US server Dochun.

Actually, it is boring in an MMO. That's why none of the MMOs that have attempted it are as popular as WoW and FFXIV are. In fact, one could say that you are the exception, as most people here agree that FFXIV is fine the way it is and is the superior game and are not even really wanting to discuss alternate styles that belong in other games.

Your argument that a MMO cannot be boring and successful is laughable honestly. Most people agree that the Honda Civic is fine too, but the SI/Type R exists because you can make something more exciting if you want too. Why was Maplestory or Ragnarok Online so successful if they were so boring?

People wanting to "not discuss" is the problem as we've identified. FF14 is perfectly FINE, I agree wholeheartedly. Fine isn't what I would strive for if I was a developer in the MMO game-space though. That's what we're trying to discuss that you're defending so poorly.

FFXIV 1.0 blows your argument away worse then Bahamat blew up eorzea

Eh - you'd be in ABSOLUTE denial if you believe with 100% certainty that the publisher/brand power doesn't weigh in heavily here.

1.0 was a terrible game that no amount of brand power or celebrity status could save. However, a mediocre game from a good brand will be plenty successful as we've seen throughout history. That's not what we're discussing. We are discussing the fact that they can do better, and ways/ideas on how to cultivate that aspect. Yoshi and SQEX are cultivating a mediocre game instead of going further.

I'm saying, if this game wasn't called Final Fantasy, no one will give 2.0 a second look.

Look at Wildstar ... it's practically all but forgotten by the masses.

Let's not pretend that the FF brand didn't help in enabling 2.0 to be a success.

Agreed, although not as certainly as you are. People would definitely give it a second shot on the merit that they rebuilt it and owned their errors. People like redeeming stories.

I liked Wildstar. I really enjoyed leveling in that game. I didn't enjoy endgame very much, but I never did give the raids a shot.

lots of recent mmos don't have the polished feel that WoW and ffxiv have too. there's almost like a disconnect between char models and the world which kills the experience for me.

I agree. FF14 feels very polished in a lot of aspects, UI/Menus, etc. are pretty subpar though, but a lot of that is due to PS3 support. I am all for polishing, but they need something fun. I'd rather have some risky janky chocobo racing than that really useless safe nonsense Yoshi threw out. Too much pride in mediocrity kills a game for me.

Look at the Diadem. Yoshi knew FULL well hunts were universally hated. So what did we get? Instanced hunts.

You can say oh we tried something and failed, but at the end of the day, this wasn't new content/features it was just new paint. LoV gets credit for being risky and new, but I want to progress my character in new and risky ways, not play mini-games during downtime.

[Lathais]

Your argument that a MMO cannot be boring and successful is laughable honestly. Most people agree that the Honda Civic is fine too, but the SI/Type R exists because you can make something more exciting if you want too. Why was Maplestory or Ragnarok Online so successful if they were so boring?

People wanting to "not discuss" is the problem as we've identified. FF14 is perfectly FINE, I agree wholeheartedly. Fine isn't what I would strive for if I was a developer in the MMO game-space though. That's what we're trying to discuss that you're defending so poorly.

I never said they could not be successful, there are tons of games that are boring and successful. Not AS successful as others though.

If you think FFXIV is just mediocre, why do you play it? I personally find it far better than mediocre. Sure, there are some QoL changes that could be made, but I think discussing changing the entire combat system is pretty silly. It's not something that is likely to ever happen. As stated, if you people want to compare it to other games combat systems, that's fine too, I just do not think that a forum that is dedicated to only FFXIV is the right place for it, especially not in the Megathread. I also love these types of discussions, I just do not feel it is really the right place for it.

[Wrecktangle]

If you think FFXIV is just mediocre, why do you play it? I personally find it far better than mediocre. Sure, there are some QoL changes that could be made, but I think discussing changing the entire combat system is pretty silly. It's not something that is likely to ever happen. As stated, if you people want to compare it to other games combat systems, that's fine too, I just do not think that a forum that is dedicated to only FFXIV is the right place for it, especially not in the Megathread. I also love these types of discussions, I just do not feel it is really the right place for it.

Alright - let's try a different approach.

Let me ask you this:

1) What aspects of FF14 do you really like and what are some ideas you would suggest to improve them? Please explain why you like them and your reasoning behind the suggested improvements.

2) What aspects of FF14 do you dislike and what are some ideas you would suggest to improve them? Please explain why you dislike them and your reasoning behind the suggested improvements.

3) What ideas do you have that are not currently implemented in the game, but you'd like to see and why?

Please put some time and effort into your responses for the sake of our discussion. This post is not intended to pick apart anything you say or attack your decisions. It is simply an alternative to discuss what I am trying to get across in a format that hopefully is more comfortable for you.

[Lathais]

Alright - let's try a different approach.

Let me ask you this:

1) What aspects of FF14 do you really like and what are some ideas you would suggest to improve them? Please explain why you like them and your reasoning behind the suggested improvements.

2) What aspects of FF14 do you dislike and what are some ideas you would suggest to improve them? Please explain why you dislike them and your reasoning behind the suggested improvements.

3) What ideas do you have that are not currently implemented in the game, but you'd like to see and why?

Please put some time and effort into your responses for the sake of our discussion. This post is not intended to pick apart anything you say or attack your decisions. It is simply an alternative to discuss what I am trying to get across in a format that hopefully is more comfortable for you.

So you don't answer my questions, don't address the issues I pointed out and then expect me to respond to your questions and points?

So I'll try again. If you think the game is just mediocre, why do you play it?

Do you really think there is a chance of them completely redesigning and re-balancing the entire combat system?

Do you really think that a Megathread about FFXIV in a FFXIV sub-forum is really a good spot to discuss other games?

Please put some time and effort into your responses for the sake of our discussion. This post is not intended to pick apart anything you say or attack your decisions. It is simply trying to get answers for the question repeatedly ignored.

[Grym]

They will always want to improve, but on new ideas that doesn't affect old ones. Changing the combat system is a complete change of the game which I also really don't think they will do. They will add new type of event, they could add an event that is more action focus, but the core design is unlikely to be changed.

On the other hand, I really would like being able to have separate glamour on same piece of gear but on 2 different classes.

[SodiumChloride]

They will always want to improve, but on new ideas that doesn't affect old ones. Changing the combat system is a complete change of the game which I also really don't think they will do. They will add new type of event, they could add an event that is more action focus, but the core design is unlikely to be changed.

On the other hand, I really would like being able to have separate glamour on same piece of gear but on 2 different classes.

To be frank, they can have multiple types of combat systems at once just by enabling and disabling various abilities, either by reducing their effectiveness to discourage use or just flat out disable it.

They already do this for PVP - and WoW is copying it in Legion, as they do.

Don't see why we can't have separate abilities for world content - allowing world content to be designed in a more interesting manner. To be blunt, going from open world soloing to dungeons is a pretty significant change in feel - in the own world you are on your own and have to take care of yourself vs in dungeons you just tunnel visioning a specific task to max efficiency.

[Lathais]

Don't see why we can't have separate abilities for world content - allowing world content to be designed in a more interesting manner. To be blunt, going from open world soloing to dungeons is a pretty significant change in feel - in the own world you are on your own and have to take care of yourself vs in dungeons you just tunnel visioning a specific task to max efficiency.

Because the would be a complete redesign and re-balance of all current world content.

Also, if you think WoW is copying this, you are wrong. WoW has been doing this for ages already. Taunts disabled, Diminishing returns on stuns and other effects, there are others too but it's been too long since I have played WoW to remember them all. Rift has done this for ages already as well, at one point even having an entire separate soul(think old talent trees in WoW) for each class that was used only in PvP. Skyforge also does this, with some abilities acting differently in PvP than in PvE.

I do agree though, going from solo to group content is a very different feel. What I don't get is why you think this is a bad thing and that it needs to change. I like that. If solo play was the same as group play, well, then what's the point. Sometimes I feel like group play, so I can group up. Sometimes, I don't feel like playing that way, so I can play solo and have a different experience.

[Sesshomaru]

Fina-freakin'-lly. I have sincerely no idea why some of you want to aim for another Anima weapons, but I finally got my last Ore & have 5 Oils in my inventory. First Deneb, then the world Hyperconductive Deneb.