Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Deleted]

I thought free games couldn't make money?!?!?!!?
That is why vanilla wow must not ever be free. Can't even consider the option.

Bring it up at the next meeting. You could sell card packs in Vanilla WoW.

[Tuesdays]

You must be trolling. Retail is absolutely nothing like vanilla. The only thing they have in common is name, but game is completely different.

I am trolling. Two games, two subs.. I was just hoping a different freeloader would take the bait.

[Byronorpheus]

Well, I haven't been able to do my yearly "KJHEOINAOIEOKLANMDKOLNOKLENOIANHPANPDN BLIZZARD RAGE BNKNONEKINAONOE" post on this or the wow forums, and this event as bait is too good to pass up. Seems like a therapeutic way to spend a lunch break, so why not.

Hey! I'm Byronorpheus! I currently play WOTLK wow on a private server that accepts donations, and I hate blizzard more than I hate mayonnaise. I really hate mayonnaise too. Like a lot. It's gross. It shouldn't be on a lot of the stuff we put it on.

Because I'm exceptionally bored, I'm going to take this rant in the form of a strawman conversation. Read on. Or don't. I don't care. This is mostly just for me.


Pfft, another blind blizzard hater. Go back to console, asshole.

Actually, up until about 5 years ago, blizzard was hands down my favorite developer by about a country mile. I've played D2, WoW, and SC1 pretty extensively, and have put some decent hours into D3 after they "fixed" it. I was a WoW subscriber until about 3 months into cataclysm. I'm also really bad at console games now. Except Super Mario RPG. I love playing that shit drunk. Regardless, I've very much fallen out of love with the company and very much disagree with most of the major decisions they've made in those years.

Whatever, dickbag. Hope you're having fun on your pay to win server.

My server (and I shan't name it here) actually isn't very pay to win. Most of the things you can buy with donations are services that blizzard used to (still does? I dunno, I haven't been on live for awhile) offer like race change, faction change. I've probably spent the most money on insta-70 for an alt and tomes of cold weather flying so I could do that the second I hit northrend. You can also spend it on mounts, but not rep mounts. Which is sad. Would have saved me a *lot* of bird people murder in terrokar.

I really really really like the riding sperm - er... I mean Nether Ray mounts.

Anyway, you can't buy an 80 level gear. Except for maybe the intro PVP set? I don't even think that's available though. I'd have to check.

Oh, so you'd spend money on those things, but not a live subscription? You fucking cheapskate.

Actually, I'd love to pay blizzard for those things on a legacy server, particularly in an F2P model. But hey, if they wanted a subscription, I'd say my ceiling is probably about 10 bucks a month. Really the most important thing is that I get to play in WOTLK.

Right, so all that money you spent and the time you spent hunting down the right patches for your server, all that is because you love WOTLK so much?

Yes, actually. That's the reason why *most* of the people play on private servers, actually. At least in my own experience. It's not about "free wow". Its about the version of wow that y'know, didn't make us want to fellate a hot curling iron.

Fuck you. I love live and I love blizzard.

Awesome. I mean they still have 6 million subscribers or whatever. It's a lot less than they had before, but obviously at least some of those people are having a good time.

You probably shouldn't love blizzard though.

Why the fuck shouldn't I?

Because the part of blizzard that loved you left for cigarettes a loooooong time ago. I'm starting to believe they're not coming back.

The hell are you babbling about?

Well, my first complaint has to do with the "you think you want that, but you don't" comment.

BULLSHITBULLSHITBULLSHIT. Everyone has talked that goddamn comment to death!

Right. Ok. Well, my point is less about the comment itself, and more about the attitude behind it.

Huh?

Well, you see, for a really long time, blizzard has been getting away with basically being public dicks to their users when they raise concerns or ask questions. Like, I've occasionally drifted back here and I've been flat out astonished by some of the blue posts that come out. I've seen them respond to so many class questions, balance concerns, and general issues like flight in Draenor with nothing but smarmy, smug, assholy responses that I'm honestly surprised that there's not been more backlash. I guess some people are more cool with "lulz boned" responses than I am.

I think a lot of that has drifted into their development style too. Sweet lord, I'm still mad about D3.

THEY FIXED D3!

THEY MADE RANDOM TIMED MERRY GO ROUNDS AND RELEASE A NEW GEARSET EVERY 3 MONTHS TO MAKE YOU RIDE IT! I'll admit, it's better than the broke in half piece of shit they released with, but they will never fix that story, which I'm still convinced is worse than every other goddamn fan thread about what the story would be. They passed up so many good ideas to come up with that lame busllshit and THEN CAIN GETS KILLED BY A GODDAMNED BUG HOBO- alright. *Takes deep breath*.

Regardless. The entire premise of D3 and the newer WoW expansions is basically "oh, some of our users are having trouble, we better make things simple for them, because we know what they want better than they do". Ability pruning, 6 goddamn hot keys in a goddamned ARPG, "talent" trees. Ugh. It disgusts me.

Yeah well, it's not like you have to play it.

I know! I don't! I play WOTLK and occasionally D2! And it's everything I ask of those games. Blizzard lets me play D2. I don't know why they wouldn't let me play WOTLK.

DIDN'T YOU SEE THEY SAID IT'S NOT FEASIBLE!

Yeah... did you really buy that? Do you think there are so many private servers available because it requires a lot of capital to set it up with existing game code? Do you think that game code *doesn't exist anymore*? No. This would be a ludicrously low cost venture to them, whether or not they wanted to do an F2P model or a subscription model. My bet would be subscription with reduced cost upgrades. I have no qualms with that. Hell, for us real crazy people they could even fit in progression like some of the private servers do. Call it "Classic Ladder" season. Charge an entry fee every time a new server opens. Make a killing.

Yeah, well maybe they meant it wouldn't be profitable!

I just described like... five ways to make money off it. And obviously its profitable enough for the donation based servers out there to do it. Otherwise the owners of those probably wouldn't. There's a lot of work for a few individuals to get through building and scripting a private server. The money to implement it is pocket change for blizzard, and the return is *soo* much, especially when you consider the people they might win back who've left wow for greener pastures. *And* if they did it, then they wouldn't have to take legal action against the fans who have already left, who probably kind of hate them.

Well it's their IP, they are perfectly within their right to take legal action!

Oh yeah, for sure.

Wait, did you just agree with me?

How could I not? Of course its legal. That doesn't make it not a dick move.

Doesn't mean it is, either.

They're suing a group of people who were making available the option to play a product that *literally is not available by any other means*, that they apparently have no intention of selling every again, that at least a sub section of their fans and previous fans clearly enjoy. How is that *not*, objectively, a dick move?

And you *really* think that those people would *pay* for an outdated game rather than just play other private servers?

Well, I bought SMRPG from nintendo for the WII rather than try to dig my SNES out of storage. It doesn't seem like a crazy idea. Six million people didn't quit playing because we all ran out of 15 bucks a month. We quit playing because we didn't like the product. Blizzard didn't listen to us, and *still* isn't listening, and it's costing them in legal fees, ignored revenue streams, all because well.. . they think they know what we want.

In any case, it'd be a good selling point for me, personally. I'd like to know that the company is getting back to loving their fanbase. Might be the start of them mending some bridges.

.... You liked SCII at least, right...?

*sigh* Yes... I liked SCII.

What about heroes of the st-

Can... can we just end on a high note?

Probably for the best.

[judgementofantonidas]

Except if you actually knew how much of what actually goes to the developers within these large companies you would be disgusted.

not at all. it is a skill set that I do not hold, that provides entertainment that desire, and if it falls within my price range I begrudge them nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a case of "making up any story I like" its about realising that "what happened outside my guild" actually happened. My 25 man guild didn't fall apart and we cleared DS 8/8 Heroic pinnacle of our raiding as a guild over the years I was running it.

THat doesn't change the fact that one of the biggest game-changing aspect of Cataclysm was the breaking down of nearly all 25 man raiding guilds. Yours did fine. Mine did fine, whoop de doo. Using that as proof that Cata was a shot in the arm for guilds is utter nonsense though. Cata destroyed guilds. Lots of them.

- - - Updated - - -

as always. everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[ShmooDude]

Yep!
We need the pro-vanilla crowd to submit a full business plan with every possible option scrutinized to ensure maximum profits.
We need every person alive to be surveyed and sign a legal affidavit stating how much they would pay blizzard to play vanilla realms.

Obviously, Blizzard can't run their own business. We need to do it for them.

The reason the burden is on the legacy server crowd to prove its financially viable is because Blizzard has already said they don't believe it is. Anecdotal evidence such as the population or number of accounts of free to play, private servers is not sufficient evidence to convince them otherwise. Even napkin numbers about profitability aren't really going to do anything to sway them.

Then economics also dictates that you don't just need legacy servers to be profitable, but that they be more profitable then the next best project Blizzard could do with the resources they're devoting to the development of the legacy servers. Sure, this isn't absolute and not everyone or even every business does things with profit as their only consideration. The problem is Blizzard has already expressed that they don't feel its a worthwhile endeavor.

My point is that to sway the upper management at Blizzard (which is ultimately who you have to convince), it probably would take something like one of those two options that you wrote in jest. Honestly, the easiest way I can think of to even attempt to do something like that would be a Kickstarter style endeavor because then the money is actually there rather than theoretical. But I doubt there's a way to do it on behalf of Blizzard and even if there was, you'd still need to know how much they would expect in order to start such a project. I would guess north of $10-20 million, of course I have no more evidence than anyone else on that subject.

[judgementofantonidas]

I am generalizing "Digital Piracy", for all intense purposes all of it is the same regardless of medium. When it comes to the creation and distribution of digital media there is no protecting it, once it is out in the world it is going to be taken without permission. This is something companies have ALWAYS known since the market has existed. Basically there will always be a % of a digital product that will not be payed for but used anyways, there is NO AVOIDING IT. Anyone who makes a game knows that the day they release it, there will be people cracking it if you have DRM, Even if you had the most amazing game in the world that everyone thought was worth the money, that % would still exist. When a company flexes their wallet to prove a stupid point when they make the kinds of money they do, it makes them look really bad especially in the eyes of the people who made their games so famous in the first place.

maybe I should put the words it is still illegal in bold.....................

[Deleted]

Damn, numbers are getting bigger and bigger, at first it was 13k players, then it's 18k, now it's 23k. There also was a poster, who said that Nost had more players than retail

if this trend continues nost will have 1mill players next month

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The highest reported numbers I could find screenshots of were 13-15k (aka: above 13k), which is why I used that as a metric. It may well have been higher, perhaps Bakis played on said private realm for a while and knows for a fact? I didn't, myself. But I do know for a fact that other such realms have/had anything from 5-8k concurrent players at peak times.

could you please link the ss where you see 13k people on one server? tia

[Deleted]

Kinda amazed at how long this discussion is lasting already.

Who actually played there at all?

[Altariaz]

The reason the burden is on the legacy server crowd to prove its financially viable is because Blizzard has already said they don't believe it is.

The problem is that Blizzard have not published any of their analysis in regard to the costs/benefits of providing a legacy server. A careful analysis of their computations would very important, but they must share their information first (that is, if they have even conducted such an analysis).

Also it is not like Blizzard predictions are gold: They thought they had a good product with WoD, only to see sub numbers nose-dive.

[Deleted]

The reason the burden is on the legacy server crowd to prove its financially viable is because Blizzard has already said they don't believe it is.

No. That is strawman argument asking for impossible.

Without knowing Blizzard internal data and polling enough actual current and former WoW players, it is not possible to provide any proof.

[Pann]

The problem is that Blizzard have not published any of their analysis in regard to the costs/benefits of providing a legacy server. A careful analysis of their computations would very important, but they must share their information first (that is, if they have even conducted such an analysis).

Also it is not like Blizzard predictions are gold: They thought they had a good product with WoD, only to see sub numbers nose-dive.

Blizzard are under no obligation to carry out an analysis let alone share it.

On face value it appears that a legacy server would be a profitable endeavour but I would wager that the situation is far more complex than a legacy server would generate a profit of x millions therefore Blizzard's profits increase by x millions.

[Thanatoss]

No. That is strawman argument asking for impossible.

Without knowing Blizzard internal data and polling enough actual current and former WoW players, it is not possible to provide any proof.

And you just answered why people see this argument as pointless. You need data we don't have access to make a financial claim on whether legacy servers are worth the investment.

[Byronorpheus]

Y'know, actually reading through these last few posts, what occurs to me is how committed blizzard is to losing money over this idea.

Their current strategy appears to be "aim the legal team at a few big private servers every once in awhile". Which costs well. Money. In this case, they spent this money to get all of Nost's no money. I'm sure they could get some losses out of some of the donation sites, but it seems like the overall cost is more than it's worth.

They've deemed that the alternate strategy of making legacy servers a thing "stupid, would lose us money, and no one really wants it". So they miss out on at least the chance to make money back there. I'm not thinking it would be a *major* draw. Maybe? No one knows. But there's still more money to be made doing this than spending money to lose money to poop on people who liked your old product.

I have to say, despite the hate, I admire the dedication.

[ls-]

if this trend continues nost will have 1mill players next month

There was one clown, who claimed that Nost had 4m accounts/players.

[Deleted]

If you are willing to pay 20, does it include retail, or just legacy? Like I said, Blizzard wouldn't want to make players choose legacy or retail, so my guess is that you'd have to pay extra for legacy access 15+5=20.

Most importantly they said no.

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Would he pay 6 times?

My friend wouldnt pay once

[Camthur]

I think you need to check what you posted.

That's for 1 year. Nost started in Feb 2015. It's April 2016 now.

The 150k and 800k figures are from Nosts website and their press releases.

(bolding added by me for emphasis)

Press releases? PRESS RELEASES!!!! How freaking stupid were those people? "Hey Blizzard! HEY! Over HERE! Here we are running an illegal server. Come and shut us down!"

[Byronorpheus]

For what it's worth, if I had to pay for live wow as well, I wouldn't pay, almost out of principle. "Oh, so you want to charge me 5 dollars for the thing I want to play, as long as I pay 15 for the thing that makes me hope that your board members all get sepsis? I don't think this new relationship is going to work."

[bluspacecow]

(bolding added by me for emphasis)

Press releases? PRESS RELEASES!!!! How freaking stupid were those people? "Hey Blizzard! HEY! Over HERE! Here we are running an illegal server. Come and shut us down!"

These were post morten press releases of course.

[kamuimac]

Well, I haven't been able to do my yearly "KJHEOINAOIEOKLANMDKOLNOKLENOIANHPANPDN BLIZZARD RAGE BNKNONEKINAONOE" post on this or the wow forums, and this event as bait is too good to pass up. Seems like a therapeutic way to spend a lunch break, so why not.

Hey! I'm Byronorpheus! I currently play WOTLK wow on a private server that accepts donations, and I hate blizzard more than I hate mayonnaise. I really hate mayonnaise too. Like a lot. It's gross. It shouldn't be on a lot of the stuff we put it on.

Because I'm exceptionally bored, I'm going to take this rant in the form of a strawman conversation. Read on. Or don't. I don't care. This is mostly just for me.


Pfft, another blind blizzard hater. Go back to console, asshole.

Actually, up until about 5 years ago, blizzard was hands down my favorite developer by about a country mile. I've played D2, WoW, and SC1 pretty extensively, and have put some decent hours into D3 after they "fixed" it. I was a WoW subscriber until about 3 months into cataclysm. I'm also really bad at console games now. Except Super Mario RPG. I love playing that shit drunk. Regardless, I've very much fallen out of love with the company and very much disagree with most of the major decisions they've made in those years.

Whatever, dickbag. Hope you're having fun on your pay to win server.

My server (and I shan't name it here) actually isn't very pay to win. Most of the things you can buy with donations are services that blizzard used to (still does? I dunno, I haven't been on live for awhile) offer like race change, faction change. I've probably spent the most money on insta-70 for an alt and tomes of cold weather flying so I could do that the second I hit northrend. You can also spend it on mounts, but not rep mounts. Which is sad. Would have saved me a *lot* of bird people murder in terrokar.

I really really really like the riding sperm - er... I mean Nether Ray mounts.

Anyway, you can't buy an 80 level gear. Except for maybe the intro PVP set? I don't even think that's available though. I'd have to check.

Oh, so you'd spend money on those things, but not a live subscription? You fucking cheapskate.

Actually, I'd love to pay blizzard for those things on a legacy server, particularly in an F2P model. But hey, if they wanted a subscription, I'd say my ceiling is probably about 10 bucks a month. Really the most important thing is that I get to play in WOTLK.

Right, so all that money you spent and the time you spent hunting down the right patches for your server, all that is because you love WOTLK so much?

Yes, actually. That's the reason why *most* of the people play on private servers, actually. At least in my own experience. It's not about "free wow". Its about the version of wow that y'know, didn't make us want to fellate a hot curling iron.

Fuck you. I love live and I love blizzard.

Awesome. I mean they still have 6 million subscribers or whatever. It's a lot less than they had before, but obviously at least some of those people are having a good time.

You probably shouldn't love blizzard though.

Why the fuck shouldn't I?

Because the part of blizzard that loved you left for cigarettes a loooooong time ago. I'm starting to believe they're not coming back.

The hell are you babbling about?

Well, my first complaint has to do with the "you think you want that, but you don't" comment.

BULLSHITBULLSHITBULLSHIT. Everyone has talked that goddamn comment to death!

Right. Ok. Well, my point is less about the comment itself, and more about the attitude behind it.

Huh?

Well, you see, for a really long time, blizzard has been getting away with basically being public dicks to their users when they raise concerns or ask questions. Like, I've occasionally drifted back here and I've been flat out astonished by some of the blue posts that come out. I've seen them respond to so many class questions, balance concerns, and general issues like flight in Draenor with nothing but smarmy, smug, assholy responses that I'm honestly surprised that there's not been more backlash. I guess some people are more cool with "lulz boned" responses than I am.

I think a lot of that has drifted into their development style too. Sweet lord, I'm still mad about D3.

THEY FIXED D3!

THEY MADE RANDOM TIMED MERRY GO ROUNDS AND RELEASE A NEW GEARSET EVERY 3 MONTHS TO MAKE YOU RIDE IT! I'll admit, it's better than the broke in half piece of shit they released with, but they will never fix that story, which I'm still convinced is worse than every other goddamn fan thread about what the story would be. They passed up so many good ideas to come up with that lame busllshit and THEN CAIN GETS KILLED BY A GODDAMNED BUG HOBO- alright. *Takes deep breath*.

Regardless. The entire premise of D3 and the newer WoW expansions is basically "oh, some of our users are having trouble, we better make things simple for them, because we know what they want better than they do". Ability pruning, 6 goddamn hot keys in a goddamned ARPG, "talent" trees. Ugh. It disgusts me.

Yeah well, it's not like you have to play it.

I know! I don't! I play WOTLK and occasionally D2! And it's everything I ask of those games. Blizzard lets me play D2. I don't know why they wouldn't let me play WOTLK.

DIDN'T YOU SEE THEY SAID IT'S NOT FEASIBLE!

Yeah... did you really buy that? Do you think there are so many private servers available because it requires a lot of capital to set it up with existing game code? Do you think that game code *doesn't exist anymore*? No. This would be a ludicrously low cost venture to them, whether or not they wanted to do an F2P model or a subscription model. My bet would be subscription with reduced cost upgrades. I have no qualms with that. Hell, for us real crazy people they could even fit in progression like some of the private servers do. Call it "Classic Ladder" season. Charge an entry fee every time a new server opens. Make a killing.

Yeah, well maybe they meant it wouldn't be profitable!

I just described like... five ways to make money off it. And obviously its profitable enough for the donation based servers out there to do it. Otherwise the owners of those probably wouldn't. There's a lot of work for a few individuals to get through building and scripting a private server. The money to implement it is pocket change for blizzard, and the return is *soo* much, especially when you consider the people they might win back who've left wow for greener pastures. *And* if they did it, then they wouldn't have to take legal action against the fans who have already left, who probably kind of hate them.

Well it's their IP, they are perfectly within their right to take legal action!

Oh yeah, for sure.

Wait, did you just agree with me?

How could I not? Of course its legal. That doesn't make it not a dick move.

Doesn't mean it is, either.

They're suing a group of people who were making available the option to play a product that *literally is not available by any other means*, that they apparently have no intention of selling every again, that at least a sub section of their fans and previous fans clearly enjoy. How is that *not*, objectively, a dick move?

And you *really* think that those people would *pay* for an outdated game rather than just play other private servers?

Well, I bought SMRPG from nintendo for the WII rather than try to dig my SNES out of storage. It doesn't seem like a crazy idea. Six million people didn't quit playing because we all ran out of 15 bucks a month. We quit playing because we didn't like the product. Blizzard didn't listen to us, and *still* isn't listening, and it's costing them in legal fees, ignored revenue streams, all because well.. . they think they know what we want.

In any case, it'd be a good selling point for me, personally. I'd like to know that the company is getting back to loving their fanbase. Might be the start of them mending some bridges.

.... You liked SCII at least, right...?

*sigh* Yes... I liked SCII.

What about heroes of the st-

Can... can we just end on a high note?

Probably for the best.

its nice wall of text but doesnt change a thing - you are still playing on illegal server which is breach of toes/eula which makes you a thief just like those who set those servers no matter how many fancy words you gonan write - law is law and you are breaking it end of the story

[Idoru]

And you just answered why people see this argument as pointless. You need data we don't have access to make a financial claim on whether legacy servers are worth the investment.

And here we have 800 pages of people using numbers from one illegal server to prove that it is indeed worth the investment. Go figure!