1. #47981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    There definitely is - in the bottom end of Bronze and Silver, if you ever get down there - you'll see. Gold 5 even is kind of like that when the seasons go on too long. What happens is that people queue for ranked when they really should be queueing draft, and the result is that they have no particular desire to win (and no particular skill anyways) - so they play goofy things, they go on nature hikes to the enemy base, they go AFK to make some lunch, they get bored of LoL and leave 20 minutes in, etc.

    It's not ELO hell because of some flaw in the ELO system - it's hell because the ELO system only works when both sides are at keyboard and want to win: two big assumptions that often aren't true in the low x5 brackets. Since it's a 5v5 game, even if 90% of participants are consistently at keyboard, and do actually want to win - you'll still have either an AFK (not at keyboard) or a feeder/troll (not interested in winning), on your team - every other game.

    If having either of those things means you are ~guarenteed to lose (did I mention that x5 kids surrender the moment they think they are at a disadvantage?). Then you will lose 50% of games purely to AFK's and trolls. That's ELO Hell - it's real. I've seen the darkness that lurks in S4, and that's just the front yard of hell.

    My favorite thing about gold is that most people genuinely want to win - they might not be any good - but they try, and they talk (they also rage and blame, but that just means they care) - but by the time you get to even like S1 - you have swam clear of the sea of bullshit that is down there in the Lovecraftian dark of Bronze and Bronze-Adjacent.

    All fine and dandy, but you're aware that the chances of this happening with the enemy team are bigger, right?


    Also people. If you (for once) get the chance to play Malph top, still get wrecked hard in lane, and you're the only tank your team has ... DO NOT GO AP.

  2. #47982
    Over 9000! Duilliath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Led ++ View Post
    To put it simple. There is no elo hell.
    I disagree. Elo Hell is where the Ego is greater than the Elo.

    A great quote I totally stole, but which is true never the less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    There definitely is - in the bottom end of Bronze and Silver, if you ever get down there - you'll see. Gold 5 even is kind of like that when the seasons go on too long. What happens is that people queue for ranked when they really should be queueing draft, and the result is that they have no particular desire to win (and no particular skill anyways) - so they play goofy things, they go on nature hikes to the enemy base, they go AFK to make some lunch, they get bored of LoL and leave 20 minutes in, etc.

    It's not ELO hell because of some flaw in the ELO system - it's hell because the ELO system only works when both sides are at keyboard and want to win: two big assumptions that often aren't true in the low x5 brackets. Since it's a 5v5 game, even if 90% of participants are consistently at keyboard, and do actually want to win - you'll still have either an AFK (not at keyboard) or a feeder/troll (not interested in winning), on your team - every other game.

    If having either of those things means you are ~guarenteed to lose (did I mention that x5 kids surrender the moment they think they are at a disadvantage?). Then you will lose 50% of games purely to AFK's and trolls. That's ELO Hell - it's real. I've seen the darkness that lurks in S4, and that's just the front yard of hell.

    My favorite thing about gold is that most people genuinely want to win - they might not be any good - but they try, and they talk (they also rage and blame, but that just means they care) - but by the time you get to even like S1 - you have swam clear of the sea of bullshit that is down there in the Lovecraftian dark of Bronze and Bronze-Adjacent.
    Bollocks. That just means the enemy team has 5 mouthbreathers who want to surrender while yours has 4. If what you say is the case, even if you do nothing but not lose the game for your team, purely statistically you should rise on account of actually playing the game.

  3. #47983
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    I disagree. Elo Hell is where the Ego is greater than the Elo.
    But this is accurate at every level or stage of the game. Therefore everything is elo hell

  4. #47984
    Quote Originally Posted by Maaanwell desi suave View Post
    I..I think, I finalize realized elo hell. I win two games, I lose two game over the last 52 games. An the loses are literally to dumb shit. Like Ekko/Fizz not being banned, or my lanes just can't come to terms with playing back, to ramp for the mid game..
    That's how it goes. Losing is unavoidable, so learn to live with it. Also, elo hell doesn't exist in reality. It only 'exists' because you're too much of a pessimist to do anything about losing. Just consider everyone, including your team, to be the enemy, and that you are the only one that is able to win the match.

    Look at what is causing who to die / lose the lane, and act upon it (usually by pushing a lane/turret).

    For the non-believers, check out Trick2g. Although he mains jungle, he is amazing at analyzing all of the lanes, and he does so very effectively with the replay function.

    Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Trick0850
    Last edited by Rampant Rabbit; 2016-04-15 at 09:43 AM.

  5. #47985
    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    Bollocks. That just means the enemy team has 5 mouthbreathers who want to surrender while yours has 4. If what you say is the case, even if you do nothing but not lose the game for your team, purely statistically you should rise on account of actually playing the game.
    I'm genuinely surprised more people aren't aware of this. Its fairly obvious for even the most mathematically impared to work out, and has been proven numerous times by players if that wasn't enough.

    With the popularity of ZZ Top Portal and Banner of Command you can turn around even the most dire looking of games with the right kind of stratergies now. There really is no reason at all to be giving up so early. I realise that trying to explain that to these kinds of people is a losing battle, but until they get the message they're going to be stuck complaining about Elo Hell, so someone needs to keep trying.

  6. #47986
    As an aside, most people in those lower elos rely on kills - and they chase, hard. I mentioned awhile back that I've been teaching some people to play, and the hardest thing to reinforce so far has been don't KS from our ADC if you can help it, and don't. fucking. chase. You can chase all you want, but kills are not what win games in the end, objectives do. We've had games where lost a 4v5 team fight bot lane, but thanks to them drawing it and (and stopping da ports), whoever was top lane was able to hard push. We've had games where I've led people on merry chases around the map (I think I've a video somewhere of me doing just that) with Udyr while my team gets objectives.

    The biggest and hardest part of Elo Hell is getting people to realize how they should play the game, how they make mistakes, and how they can fix them. It's why I record my games and go over them later - I sit there and I cringe at every mistake I make, but ultimately, it makes me a better player when I can remember and try to avoid making those mistakes. This low, the easiest way to do that is for those of us with higher skill sets to play stupid shit (like full AP Mejais Udyr) and play so aggressively that the B4 Ammumu jungle is useless outside of his ult so even when my ADC does get jumped on, she still has a chance to escape, or some such.

    Another thing we've done is have them watch streamers and people who teach the game really well. Our newest expressed interest in learning the ways of the jungle, so I sent him some videos from Trick2g, Pants are Dragon, and some really good LCS players. Our support, even though he's Gold, doesn't play Thresh and figured he'd be easiest to help carry bot lane (outside his comfort zone of Blitz and Morgana), so he's done nothing for the past two weeks but watch prominent Thresh players and practice. For new players, that's the biggest thing I can think to emphasize - you might be stuck in Elo Hell, but it's certainly not impossible to escape from it. Practice your heart out, surround yourself with a team of people you can trust in-game, and go ham.

    And one last thing: if you start to lose game after game, do not keep playing. You'll get frustrated and tilt and that's how trolls are born. Next thing you know, you're maining Trundle mid and intentionally feeing.

    This game isn't impossible to win. There's the "I'm the only one who can win"-play style, or the "devoted to a cause"-team play style. Both work, but you need to find what champions are right for you, and a team of people you can trust.

  7. #47987
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    Bollocks. That just means the enemy team has 5 mouthbreathers who want to surrender while yours has 4. If what you say is the case, even if you do nothing but not lose the game for your team, purely statistically you should rise on account of actually playing the game.
    It's not that it can't be escaped, it's just an arduous crawl through the molten mud, through the seven levels of ELO hell, past the river of blood, through the forest of adulterers, etc. You can escape ELO Hell, but the likelihood of AFKs / ragequits / trolls / feeders is definitely more likely down there: you experience more silly losses, not just losses to your team legitimately losing.

    That's all ELO hell is.
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  8. #47988
    I'd kill to be in low bronze or low silver. Back in the day when we had ranked 5's my friends and I would try to get placed as low as posslble, stomp teams and then surrender so they won. The enemy was really mad about it, but took the win and moved on. I don't feel like we were hurting anyone, but then Riot made that bannable so we stopped :C


    Just got the masters founders pack for Paragon through employee accommodation shenanigans, gonna give it a try. Pretty sweet bundle, retails for 100 bucks and you get every hero ever that comes out for free. Time to see if it's worth playing, I played it early in the alpha and seemed fun.
    Last edited by Gib Lover; 2016-04-15 at 06:41 PM.

  9. #47989
    What I mean by Elo Hell is kinda what Yvaelle was saying, looking over last few games.

    >> Support Teemo/Jungle Devour Vayne <-- Loss, why? Enemy Jinx went 9-1 by 15min. Even as 2/0 Renekton 30cs+ I couldn't touch her. I was double auto to death

    >> Yasuo top w/ ignite vs Enemy Master Yi w/ tele <-- Loss, why? Master Yi 5/0 by 14min an our Miss Fortune rage quit even though I was 6/2 Fizz jungle. Gold was even til 16mins, tough 4v4's didn't matter. Yi is in base pushing, can't stop him ends at 24mins...

    >> In LITERAL unison, all of the lanes died while I was mid first clear of jungle. This one was a complete, clown fiesta. An only made it to 34mins, because they dove past inhib turret into a gragas(myself) an Ryze, got aced an I stole baron. God bless turtle strats. Doesn't matter Ryze really needed those wraiths no wards, got dunked we lost the next 4v5 under turret. An I wasted my ult here! Completely missed it.


    Ultimately I haven't the words to express. That my own rating as a player, more often than not doesn't come down to my play, but others. In the example of the jinx, she was literally awful. Didn't try kiting, didn't know how to weave autos. She was just so huge she could literally just right click random things an win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Still Rampant Rabbit View Post
    That's how it goes. Losing is unavoidable, so learn to live with it. Also, elo hell doesn't exist in reality. It only 'exists' because you're too much of a pessimist to do anything about losing. Just consider everyone, including your team, to be the enemy, and that you are the only one that is able to win the match.

    Look at what is causing who to die / lose the lane, and act upon it (usually by pushing a lane/turret).

    For the non-believers, check out Trick2g. Although he mains jungle, he is amazing at analyzing all of the lanes, and he does so very effectively with the replay function.

    Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Trick0850
    I can accept a loss. I just can't accept failure. Losing a team fight sure, maybe accidentally misclick fine. Down 30cs? will come back. But dying constantly within the first 10mins is unacceptable. An I understand how to play this season, an prior. My brother an I always played like women in labor. Never chase kills, just push the turrets
    Last edited by Misjudged Maaanwell; 2016-04-15 at 07:51 PM.
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  10. #47990
    Quote Originally Posted by Maaanwell desi suave View Post
    I can accept a loss. I just can't accept failure. Losing a team fight sure, maybe accidentally misclick fine. Down 30cs? will come back. But dying constantly within the first 10mins is unacceptable. An I understand how to play this season, an prior. My brother an I always played like women in labor. Never chase kills, just push the turrets

    Would you be telling me the truth if you told me you never have a shit game where you die a lot early game, causing other players including yourself to tilt?

    I'm calling bullshit if you would tell me that. Every player has shit games, in this case, you seem to be pitted with those players in those exact moments. Doesn't mean there is nothing you can do about it.

  11. #47991
    Quote Originally Posted by Still Rampant Rabbit View Post
    Would you be telling me the truth if you told me you never have a shit game where you die a lot early game, causing other players including yourself to tilt?

    I'm calling bullshit if you would tell me that. Every player has shit games, in this case, you seem to be pitted with those players in those exact moments. Doesn't mean there is nothing you can do about it.
    Of course I have had shit games, everyone does. The difference is. I won't let my poor performance decide the game. Such an example is I was playing Poppy top. I was getting bullied, under estimated Sion's damage. Got First Blooded, than camped. 0/3 by 13mins. I would ping allies away, tell them to focus something else. Zac an Sion are a duo an are committed to shutting me down. But I was committed to farming, I may have been 0/3 but I was 20cs up on Sion. He tp'd mid to make play, failed. I kept pinging people to back, just play safe. They team death match bot 4v5, I just stayed top hard pushing, took a turret, teleported mid, took the turret, an stole Zac's red side jung before base.

    Now suddenly at 18mins sure Sion is 5/0 an im 0/3. But he's down 70cs to me an they lost 2 turrets for nothing. Which means I'm like 1000g ahead of him now.

    That said I was definitely carried, an was only allowed back into game, due to team not fighting 4v5's just turtle an letting me ramp. An Sion not properly taking advantage of our gold discrepancy
    Last edited by Misjudged Maaanwell; 2016-04-15 at 09:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post
    U6 easily has the best charcters introduce in SUper, aside from Beerus and BLack
    jajaja

  12. #47992
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    It's not that it can't be escaped, it's just an arduous crawl through the molten mud, through the seven levels of ELO hell, past the river of blood, through the forest of adulterers, etc. You can escape ELO Hell, but the likelihood of AFKs / ragequits / trolls / feeders is definitely more likely down there: you experience more silly losses, not just losses to your team legitimately losing.

    That's all ELO hell is.
    During my brief stay there, I found that some team friendly phrasing, putting a positive spin on things and most importantly, finding something other than teammates to blame goes a long way. "Its not your fault you're feeding Zed, Galio is just totally OP!". I don't believe that for a second, but it gives everyone an out without the need to blame your Zed who's probably totally clueless about how to handle Galio and just keeps getting more and more frustrated.

    It won't totally alieviate the problem, but I've never seen games be anything like as bad in "Elo Hell" as people have made it out to be. Sure, you do get the odd one or two but not its certainly not one or two every game.
    Last edited by StrawberryZebra; 2016-04-15 at 09:43 PM.

  13. #47993
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    It won't totally alieviate the problem, but I've never seen games be anything like as bad in "Elo Hell" as people have made it out to be. Sure, you do get the odd one or two but not its certainly not one or two every game.
    To be fair I was saying it's about one person every other game. It's real, and it sucks - but it's totally escapable.

    People definitely blame it for their own being down there - that's the part where ego exceeds elo - I just wanted to put my foot down on the whole, "It doesn't exist" thing: it's real, it's not as bad as some people make it out, it is escapable, and it's not a flaw of the ELO system so much as human nature - but it exists
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  14. #47994
    I can understand why people feel certain ELO's are ELO hell, because on Rocket League I get that feeling But the one time I played a Bronze account I made it to Gold 2 in about 50 games. Playing a mid hero that can dominate lane and then roam makes it easy. I also did a lot of ADC back then too, but in this current meta I doubt it'd work as well. A few top laners can certainly carry real hard, especially with the right TP plays.

  15. #47995
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    I can understand why people feel certain ELO's are ELO hell, because on Rocket League I get that feeling But the one time I played a Bronze account I made it to Gold 2 in about 50 games. Playing a mid hero that can dominate lane and then roam makes it easy. I also did a lot of ADC back then too, but in this current meta I doubt it'd work as well. A few top laners can certainly carry real hard, especially with the right TP plays.
    Went 8-2 in placements and got gold on my smurf. Climbed on my main after spending a month in normal games just fixing all my mistakes, I was making.

    This season is a bit more of a grind but elo hell doesn't exist.
    Last edited by Varvara Spiros Gelashvili; 2016-04-16 at 02:30 AM.
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  16. #47996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    It's not that it can't be escaped, it's just an arduous crawl through the molten mud, through the seven levels of ELO hell, past the river of blood, through the forest of adulterers, etc. You can escape ELO Hell, but the likelihood of AFKs / ragequits / trolls / feeders is definitely more likely down there: you experience more silly losses, not just losses to your team legitimately losing.

    That's all ELO hell is.
    And again you completely ignore the enemy team, who has a HIGHER chance of having MORE of these trolls/afk's/noobs/whatever in their team.

    Thus it's simple, if you're better then those people you will get higher. Thus the system works. Enemy teams don't magically have better people in them. Or magically have a professional 5 man premade with voice coms for that matter.

  17. #47997
    Quote Originally Posted by Led ++ View Post
    And again you completely ignore the enemy team, who has a HIGHER chance of having MORE of these trolls/afk's/noobs/whatever in their team.

    Thus it's simple, if you're better then those people you will get higher. Thus the system works. Enemy teams don't magically have better people in them. Or magically have a professional 5 man premade with voice coms for that matter.
    Not totally true riot does have systems in place that try to keep your w/l ratio at 50%. I noticed it this season more then ever with the new team based design they're pushing for and its annoying but overcome able.

    It's a problem when the other team death balls and groups 24/7. You stop that by avoiding it, wave clearing, or out split pushing them but that takes coordination. People at low elo aren't good at that and some don't even how it works. Not to mention one or two people not grouping can cost you the game, its insanely frustrating when your on the receiving end.
    Last edited by Varvara Spiros Gelashvili; 2016-04-16 at 06:09 PM.
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  18. #47998
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Led ++ View Post
    And again you completely ignore the enemy team, who has a HIGHER chance of having MORE of these trolls/afk's/noobs/whatever in their team.
    I didn't ignore it at all, you're ignoring me addressing it - ELO hell can be escaped precisely because you have a higher chance than the enemy team. However, if both sides are slogged down by people on both sides who aren't taking ranked seriously (whether AFK or trolling, which are both much more common at lower ELO), then the escaping it takes longer (that's called ELO Hell). In my napkin math example above, if every other game includes either an AFK or a troll, then the crawl takes four times longer to escape: meaning you have to consistently perform better than your division four times longer than you would otherwise.

    If you consistently perform better, than you drag your average up, yes. ELO Hell again - isn't inescapable - it's just harder to climb than other brackets. And that particularly applies to people who are closer to their correct division. Examples:

    Let's say you are a Silver 5 calibre player, but you end up in Bronze 4 for whatever reason. Climbing to Silver 5 (where you belong) is going to be harder than someone who is Gold 5 calibre, in Silver 4. Obviously, if we drop a challenger into any of these divisions, then everyone dies and ELO hell isn't something they can perceive - because by the time they get close to their ELO (once in diamond where they have to put effort in again), everyone they are playing with is not AFK, and not trolling.

    So ELO hell can't be perceived by people above Gold. It may be perceived by low Gold players in Silver. It's a part of life for Silver players in Bronze. If you're a high bronze player in low bronze, it's probably the reason you quit League and went to HotS (or don't play ranked).

    Thus it's simple, if you're better then those people you will get higher. Thus the system works.
    Again - I keep saying it works - it just works differently when you change the assumptions underlying the players motivations for playing: if you assume that all participants want to win (aren't trolling / feeding), and are at keyboard (not AFK) - then ELO works very well. If those assumptions aren't true (Bronze, low Silver particularly) - then the outcome changes - and moving up ELO is harder because your team is far more likely to throw matches.

    If your team throws matches slightly less than the other team throws matches - that doesn't mean ELO hell doesn't exist - it simply means moving up is harder/longer. The system works, differently. Different inputs, yield different outputs.

    Enemy teams don't magically have better people in them. Or magically have a professional 5 man premade with voice coms for that matter.
    Thresh away the excuses and focus on the behaviour for a moment. Excuses are an attempt to rationalize failure - to comprehend what went wrong. It may also be to pad their ego (absolutely). But don't deny that advantages can exist, like voice coms, like not having AFKs or trolls - these things do happen (they're real). The important thing isn't to dismiss excuses as all being false - but to help excusers to recognize the underlying criticism of their performance - which they may actually correctly be identifying.
    - Enemy team is coordinating better? Maybe you should communicate more.
    - Enemy top+jungle are in a clan/probably voice? Maybe you should play with friends/voice, too.
    - We lost because we have an AFK/Troll, and they didn't? That's tough - play 5's I guess - or just play so much that it slowly balances out.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2016-04-16 at 08:23 PM.
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  19. #47999
    Quote Originally Posted by Foo Foo Cuddlypoops View Post
    Not totally true riot does have systems in place that try to keep your w/l ratio at 50%. I noticed it this season more then ever with the new team based design they're pushing for and its annoying but overcome able.

    It's a problem when the other team death balls and groups 24/7. You stop that by avoiding it, wave clearing, or out split pushing them but that takes coordination. People at low elo aren't good at that and some don't even how it works. Not to mention one or two people not grouping can cost you the game, its insanely frustrating when your on the receiving end.
    Do you have anything to support that Riot does enforce a 50% win/loss ratio? If anything, its an indication of MMR working correctly more than something Riot have intentionally added to the system. Unless you're at the extreme ends of the spectrum, you should be getting pushed towards a 50% win rate naturally due to how the system works.

    As for Deathballing, you can get around it with a zz top portal and/or a banner of command. They allow you to both split push and be present where you team needs you. At the worst, it forces the other team to split up to deal with it giving you an advantage to force a fight with and at best it takes their towers out unimpeded for you, netting you and your team some important gold.

  20. #48000
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Do you have anything to support that Riot does enforce a 50% win/loss ratio? If anything, its an indication of MMR working correctly more than something Riot have intentionally added to the system. Unless you're at the extreme ends of the spectrum, you should be getting pushed towards a 50% win rate naturally due to how the system works.

    As for Deathballing, you can get around it with a zz top portal and/or a banner of command. They allow you to both split push and be present where you team needs you. At the worst, it forces the other team to split up to deal with it giving you an advantage to force a fight with and at best it takes their towers out unimpeded for you, netting you and your team some important gold.
    It was in an old thread that riot lyte commented in and a lot of other pvp games do it as well. If I find it will link it.
    Last edited by Varvara Spiros Gelashvili; 2016-04-16 at 11:32 PM.
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