[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Aeriel]

Old DP worked pretty well I think (even if we weren't known for our ST dps back then), while the new DP wasn't really a dot - half nuke, half 6 second dot (who is also clipped using CoP now). It was our third dot but couldn't be used to multidot, it had no limits or anything. VEnt was a failure, yes, but it also dealt very little damage for its duration and didn't contribute to orb generation, falling behind the other two options. It was also too weak/long to be useful outside raids.
If a spec is built with the idea that it has to have a single target dot (short-ish duration but strong, so you use it quite often along a DD spell, I don't know), maybe it would be possibile. I just don't think that it would be impossibile by default.

Now you're arguing that a front loaded spell isn't a DoT? What do you consider Ignite?

Honestly WoW's mechanics are not designed for long duration, slow DoTs. Those are great in Patchwerk + movement, but those are few and far between.

[Naga Coatl]

We got to recognize that we arent dot focused. More like half direct damage and half dots. We are the only spec that has really strong dots AND have a lot of mechanics tied to them both. We arent a full this or that but fully balanced between both. We cant, at this point, buff dots without nerfing our direct damage spells and vice versa. It can be if they wanted to but no other spec is the same. Balance have dots but mainly for the mechanics they bring. Death knights are the same and then warlocks having a spec for full dots.

I like where we're at with having a mix of both as it makes it seem unique in that regard.

Judging by the responses I got pages ago, it seems that we ARE dot focused, but my interpretation is wrong. Also, as I wrote I know that we can't just buff dots in the current situation and expect good results, mine was just a hypotetical suggestion for a "more dot" spec while realizing that direct damage may very well be a necessity. As I said, I'm just confused about how during MoP 20% dot damage was low, 20% now is 'really strong', I'll just suppose that times have changed.

Why go through that trouble? Just to say 'our dots now do a big % of our damage on single target'? Then what do you do to make sure there's an enjoyable multitarget rotation? Your idea just creates a very unsatisfying single target rotation, while making an incredibly hard to balance multitarget rotation that won't feel very good as apparently our dots will be weaker on multitarget. It's actually among the dumbest spec ideas I've read in my time playing WoW.

...In my idea, that dot would be one of the 2-3, and it would deal reduced damage but balanced to be still a gain to multidot with. Like, 100% on one target, 70% on each two targets, and so on, obviously I don't have the numbers. So it would be intuitive enough to know that you should multidot anyway, while reducing the 'If a dot is strong ST, it will be broken MT' effect. Again, I don't have a full system ready because it's beyond the scope of what I wanted to say.

I mean, a more dot focused spec apparently is unbalanceable by default, yet we are here happy to argue about how to balance a 10 minutes cd talent that scales like crazy in multidot, while having a extremely niche use, and that kills you. Also, if they told me a year ago that shadow would get a mechanic that brought it continuously near or below the 1 sec gcd cap while buffing dots second after second while also spamming direct damage spells, and not knowing any other detail, probably I would have thought that it was absurd.

Sorry, but you seem to continuously twist my words in order to make what I write worse/dumber than what I mean. You still say that it would be bad and horrible and boring even if I said many times that it would require work to make it good and I wrote just a couple of ideas that might be a piece of that. I don't know what I've done to deserve this kind of hostility, but it's pretty clear that I should just stop bringing this things up.

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Now you're arguing that a front loaded spell isn't a DoT? What do you consider Ignite?

As I said many times in my other posts, I was talking about dots that you can put on mobs while focusing other targets, letting them eat their life. 'Classic' dots like SWP and VT. A non spammable half nuke-half 6 second dot is not what I intended.

[RsinRC]

@Naga Coatl What I mean is we aren't solely dot focused. We are in the way that we need to have them up on our targets but at the same time we have to focus juggling our DD spells. It's around 25% ST and goes upward of 40% of all our damage with 3 targets . That's pretty substantial. Nearly half of the damage from dots alone and the rest from DD and Mindflay/MSpike/mindsear/Shadowy Appiritions/shadowfiend/SoI. I'm not sure how you feel that they aren't doing enough. On top of that they both proc Shadowy appiritions. VT passively heals for the full amount it does damage, SWP causes VF to do 5% of our damage to targets afflicted by it through SoI, can be talented to proc an instant mindblast now and they increase in damage with each stack of VF through Mass Hysteria AND they're damage increased from our artifact traits.

I'm pretty sure you know this but it seems as if it's not really sticking. I think our dots are extremely strong. Nothing like the "20%" you're trying to make it be.

[Naga Coatl]

What I mean is we aren't solely dot focused. We are in the way that we need to have them up on our targets but at the same time we have to focus juggling our DD spells. It's around 25% ST and goes upward of 40% of all our damage with 3 targets . That's pretty substantial. Nearly half of the damage from dots alone and the rest from DD and Mindflay/MSpike/mindsear/Shadowy Appiritions/shadowfiend/SoI. I'm not sure how you feel that they aren't doing enough. On top of that they both proc Shadowy appiritions. VT passively heals for the full amount it does damage, SWP causes VF to do 5% of our damage to targets afflicted by it through SoI, can be talented to proc an instant mindblast now and they increase in damage with each stack of VF through Mass Hysteria AND they're damage increased from our artifact traits.

I'm pretty sure you know this but it seems as if it's not really sticking. I think our dots are extremely strong. Not just your "20%"

All of this has already been said. I know very well that we aren't solely dot focused, I've never tried to say that we should have 100% dots or something like this. This 20/25% stuff is single target, I know, and I know that goes up in multitarget. I repeated the 20% thing just to compare with another single target situation, during MoP - I've avoided to repeat "20% ST, 40% MT" everytime to get my point across without extra stuff. I've also said that this 20% is without 'extra stuff', like im MoP it was 20% without counting AS, the dot part of DP, SoD/DI yet the common opinion was that they were weak. It was merely a comparison about the 'real dot damage' since people were happy and said that their damage is high now even without considering the other stuff, which I've never neglected.

I think that for a spec that should be/was about dots, 20/25% ST and 40% (before considering the extra procs/etc) in the ideal scenario feels somewhat low, and I found strange that what was low in MoP is now strong even if the % are almost identical, but these are just my opinions about the 'feel', I'm not trying to say that the spec would be ok drastically upping dot damage now or something similar. I personally preferred the times in which dots were a larger % of our damage, because i REALLY love the 'fantasy' of devouring dots, but that's just me.

[Annesh]

We have never been a fully dot-focused spec, not ever. Even at our most core, the OG shadowpriest in vanilla wow, we were half nuke, half dot - MB and SWP, with Flay thrown in if you feel like it.

We've ALWAYS been part nuke, part dots.

The current nuke/dot damage distribution is fine.

[RsinRC]

Right I get your point. We are good now and you realized that now but you would've liked the spec to have more of our damage % coming from our dots. Maybe if they took out all of those mechanics tied to our dots that cause extra damage it could be done but then, imho, the spec would be dull as a mofo lol.

[Naga Coatl]

We have never been a fully dot-focused spec, not ever. Even at our most core, the OG shadowpriest in vanilla wow, we were half nuke, half dot - MB and SWP, with Flay thrown in if you feel like it.

We've ALWAYS been part nuke, part dots.

Yes, I know - I wonder why everyone seems to think that I am saying otherwise when I've stated it many times.

I'd just like "more dots, less nukes", with different damage distribution like in Cata. That's all. It won't be that way probably - I'll just adapt like everyone else.

[Yvaelle]

We have never been a fully dot-focused spec, not ever. Even at our most core, the OG shadowpriest in vanilla wow, we were half nuke, half dot - MB and SWP, with Flay thrown in if you feel like it.

We've ALWAYS been part nuke, part dots.

The current nuke/dot damage distribution is fine.

Yea Mind Blast and Death were big nukes in Vanilla / TBC - limited by long-ish cooldowns - and our comparatively low damage (ignoring dots) between those CDs.

The flip side is, Pain and VT felt way more powerful - you could throw them on people and watch them run and still die.

So what has changed is that, as our spec has gained necessary complexity - which I'm a huge advocate for - our perception of powerful burst / powerful dots is decayed by all the added synergies and masteries and talents and passives and glyphs and stats and etc.

[Aeriel]

We have never been a fully dot-focused spec, not ever. Even at our most core, the OG shadowpriest in vanilla wow, we were half nuke, half dot - MB and SWP, with Flay thrown in if you feel like it.

We've ALWAYS been part nuke, part dots.

The current nuke/dot damage distribution is fine.

Well, Vanilla PvP was more about MF and Mana Burn, but yeah that was a completely different meta than now.

[Kretan]

Yes, I know - I wonder why everyone seems to think that I am saying otherwise when I've stated it many times.

I'd just like "more dots, less nukes", with different damage distribution like in Cata. That's all. It won't be that way probably - I'll just adapt like everyone else.

The distribution and scaling right now feels very good. Everything you do feels important and meaningful. Upping dot % is going to decrease fun and increase frustration. It's just not a good idea I'm sorry.

[Naga Coatl]

he distribution and scaling right now feels very good. Everything you do feels important and meaningful. Upping dot % is going to decrease fun and increase frustration. It's just not a good idea I'm sorry.

I think we can say that the fun of a heavy dot playstyle it's a pretty subjective matter. As you said many times, we can't talk with absolutes when it's all a matter of how something could be done/tuned. Again, I'm not saying that, in the current build, 'upping dot damage' without care for everything else would be the best thing. All I'm saying is that if the SP would hypotetically be redone with interesting ways (that are not impossibile by default) to be more dot-focused (dmg wise) like it was pre-MoP, I would be happy since I love the idea of a "dot heavier" SP.

At this point however I feel as I am repeating myself too much. I think I've explained myself quite well by now.

[Nycros]

Theed, any word on our state in PvP with instant mind blasts? Has the mobility helped our survivability?

[Deleted]

Well, Vanilla PvP was more about MF and Mana Burn, but yeah that was a completely different meta than now.

I still miss mana burn

[Kretan]

Theed, any word on our state in PvP with instant mind blasts? Has the mobility helped our survivability?

I can tell you that it got much worse because of the fully opened up talent trees on premades. A lot of specs are just one shotting/doing MASSIVE damage. PVP is just unplayable/untestable right now. The lack of any format except 2s skirmishes also makes it even worse.

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I think we can say that the fun of a heavy dot playstyle it's a pretty subjective matter. As you said many times, we can't talk with absolutes when it's all a matter of how something could be done/tuned. Again, I'm not saying that, in the current build, 'upping dot damage' without care for everything else would be the best thing. All I'm saying is that if the SP would hypotetically be redone with interesting ways (that are not impossibile by default) to be more dot-focused (dmg wise) like it was pre-MoP, I would be happy since I love the idea of a "dot heavier" SP.

At this point however I feel as I am repeating myself too much. I think I've explained myself quite well by now.

That is fair. I think at this point it's just agree to disagree. I don't think the dot heavier play style would play out, but that's my opinion of fun not yours.

[Kilee25]

If your definition of a "dot focused" class means no direct damage whatsoever, I don't know what to say. To me it just means that dots do half or more of our damage, as well as the fact that management of dot refreshing is one of the most important, if not the most important, things about the cast rotation. The only aspect of shadow right now that fits that model is void entropy on a concil style fight... I do not consider AS to be dot focused, nor do I consider devouring plaque to be a dot - to me it is just a single target nuke with a trailing damage after effect.

MoP to me was somewhere in between where it is now. And cata and all that came before it was imo clearly a dot focused play style. Saying it wasn't because mind blast and death existed just bewilders me. That's like saying warlocks aren't either because shadow bolt...

Anyway, fwiw I really enjoy true dot focused play styles and always have. But dot-to-proc styles, which is what AS is, I don't like, because it focuses too much on one dot only, and it's really just about trying to find ways to abuse that "gimmick".

From what you say about Legion, it seems like it will be quite close to AS but not quite as far in that direction, and generally more ST focused than dots due to spending so much time in void form. Doesn't matter if you like or dislike it in the end (or what you call it) - it's what we are getting.

[Naga Coatl]

If your definition of a "dot focused" class means no direct damage whatsoever, I don't know what to say. To me it just means that dots do half or more of our damage, as well as the fact that management of dot refreshing is one of the most important, if not the most important, things about the cast rotation. The only aspect of shadow right now that fits that model is void entropy on a concil style fight... I do not consider AS to be dot focused, nor do I consider devouring plaque to be a dot - to me it is just a single target nuke with a trailing damage after effect.

MoP to me was somewhere in between where it is now. And cata and all that came before it was imo clearly a dot focused play style. Saying it wasn't because mind blast and death existed just bewilders me. That's like saying warlocks aren't either because shadow bolt...

Anyway, fwiw I really enjoy true dot focused play styles and always have. But dot-to-proc styles, which is what AS is, I don't like, because it focuses too much on one dot only, and it's really just about trying to find ways to abuse that "gimmick".

From what you say about Legion, it seems like it will be quite close to AS but not quite as far in that direction, and generally more ST focused than dots due to spending so much time in void form. Doesn't matter if you like or dislike it in the end (or what you call it) - it's what we are getting.

Are you replying to me...?

[Kilee25]

I can't remember who said what. Just replying to the last 2 pages.

[Naga Coatl]

Oh ok, the 'dot focused vs no direct damage' and the ending seemed like it was directed to me - it would have been strange because in the last few pages I've said basically everything you've written in your previous post.

Happy that at least someone agrees with me.

[Chantique]

@Kretan based on your tests so far SI could have some uses in PVE or will still be better most of the time to spec AS?

[Skrymer]

Well, Vanilla PvP was more about MF and Mana Burn, but yeah that was a completely different meta than now.

You forgot Mind Control in there! =D
Best thing ever: mana burn a palla dry and mc him off the bridge in AV...or lumber mill in AB <3