[BETA] Destruction Warlock Discussion

[Kirroth]

I'm sorry but I don't find it "chaotic" at all, either you get to cast chaos bolt or you don't, there is no "reacting" by pressing a certain button whenever you get a proc similar to ret paladin.

Ret Paladin plays whack-a-mole with their procs. Destro looks to be more like: I don't know if I'm about to get a couple SS from Immo procs or if I'll have to wait till I cast Conflag before I can cast a Chaos Bolt, I don't know if Soul Conduit and Soulsnatched will proc off the Chaos Bolt refunding a full two SS for an immediate follow up Chaos Bolt or not, I don't know if the Mastery rolls on those Chaos Bolts will be high or low.

How "chaotic" that is depends on how much uncertainty you like in your rotation. Some players like being able to plan out their next five actions in their head, and would find it to be too much. Some players get a thrill out of the mad scramble to react to buttons lighting up, and might find it too little. And, hopefully, some players will find that it hits the Little Bear spot that's just right for them.

[Baconeggcheese]

The problem for a lot of us I think is that while it may end up being tuned just fine (and probably will) it just doesn't feel very fun.

If you enjoyed destruction from 5.0 onward I'm not sure why you wouldn't enjoy it now as it really doesn't play any different.

If you didn't enjoy it from 5.0 onward then nothings changed.

I'm sorry but I don't find it "chaotic" at all, either you get to cast chaos bolt or you don't, there is no "reacting" by pressing a certain button whenever you get a proc similar to ret paladin. Sure you get same results over a bigger number of parses but consistency from try to try is very important on cutting edge raiding.

Consistency only matters as much as the minimum is concerned, the amount you spike beyond that isn't as important. There hasn't been much consistency since mop and RPPM, trinket procs are staggeringly strong and can have wildly different up times that dwarf the potential spec rng.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Right, there's definitely some talents that seem sub par and/or don't work well with other talents, but RNG is not something I'm worried will limit the spec based on what I've seen.

Also, anyone else notice that reverse entropy doesn't actually reduce CB cast time by .5 seconds but rather some time less than that based on haste? Hoping this is a bug, else the talent gets worse with gear.

[Grizelda]

,It looks like there are many rng ways to proc shards and I'm sure they will be tuned to acceptable levels.

That, however, really goes against what I fell in love with destro for. The control. Being able to plan when my burst would come. Knowing how many embers I would have if I played smart.
Even with CR it was fun planning how to have appropriate embers ready for AoE bursts. It's not rocket science, I know, but I still liked the control.
I don't think I like not knowing if I'm going to have a resource or not. I even hate out current 4 pc. I like planning my next three or four moves well and being rewarded for it.

I like longer lasting Backdraft with stacks better. It gave you some choices on how to portion them out to best effect. Again, not chess, but it was something fun.
I don't really see how Backdraft will be used to best effect now. Often we plan to use Conflag when moving and Backdraft will be wasted.

For the same reason I like Havoc with it's stacks and cd. If you play smart you can, for example, pre-havoc boss before a short lived add comes out. Chaosbolt the add and then havoc will be off cd in time to SB it as it dies. It feels more rewarding then perma havoc, which I image will make balancing our single target vs. cleave a challenge.

The RNG on our mastery I don't really mind. It's taking a stat that gave no interaction with game play and it still has no interaction. It seems like a wash but at least it's more interesting.

Doomguard costing a shard is lame.

What would an opening sequence look like for Destro? I suppose we couldn't know until tuning but just thinking about it, it seems odd to wedge in a Doomguard costing a shard.
Also seems weird to try and fit in portals from our staff.

[Xandy]

If you enjoyed destruction from 5.0 onward I'm not sure why you wouldn't enjoy it now as it really doesn't play any different.

If you didn't enjoy it from 5.0 onward then nothings changed.

Uh the spec/rotation has changed in alpha mate? aside from having to juggle talents all the time the RNG resource generation is the source of my gripe

[Turturin the Warlock]

,It looks like there are many rng ways to proc shards and I'm sure they will be tuned to acceptable levels.

That, however, really goes against what I fell in love with destro for. The control. Being able to plan when my burst would come. Knowing how many embers I would have if I played smart.
Even with CR it was fun planning how to have appropriate embers ready for AoE bursts. It's not rocket science, I know, but I still liked the control.
I don't think I like not knowing if I'm going to have a resource or not. I even hate out current 4 pc. I like planning my next three or four moves well and being rewarded for it.

I like longer lasting Backdraft with stacks better. It gave you some choices on how to portion them out to best effect. Again, not chess, but it was something fun.
I don't really see how Backdraft will be used to best effect now. Often we plan to use Conflag when moving and Backdraft will be wasted.

For the same reason I like Havoc with it's stacks and cd. If you play smart you can, for example, pre-havoc boss before a short lived add comes out. Chaosbolt the add and then havoc will be off cd in time to SB it as it dies. It feels more rewarding then perma havoc, which I image will make balancing our single target vs. cleave a challenge.

The RNG on our mastery I don't really mind. It's taking a stat that gave no interaction with game play and it still has no interaction. It seems like a wash but at least it's more interesting.

Doomguard costing a shard is lame.

What would an opening sequence look like for Destro? I suppose we couldn't know until tuning but just thinking about it, it seems odd to wedge in a Doomguard costing a shard.
Also seems weird to try and fit in portals from our staff.

Permanent havoc comes at the cost of 30% of your shard generation. It's a valid concern, but don't forget there's already built in tuning that's substantial.

[Grizelda]

Permanent havoc comes at the cost of 30% of your shard generation. It's a valid concern, but don't forget there's already built in tuning that's substantial.

Good point. I don't suppose that Havoc Conflags are generating double embers are they?

I'm also going to miss FnB Conflag into a pack of mobs. One of my favorite visuals. Green death!

[Deleted]

Hey guys I'm going to test the Destro lock at tonight's raids for the first time. What's the highest damage dealing / highest simming setup at the moment? Thanks in advance.

[Baconeggcheese]

Uh the spec/rotation has changed in alpha mate? aside from having to juggle talents all the time the RNG resource generation is the source of my gripe

It really hasn't changed, the same core is still there.

And conflag is a guaranteed source of shards, so its not exactly RNG.

[Cyberthug32]

I personally like Destro right now on Alpha. There is some tweaking needing to be done of course, also needing to see how the full effect of the artifact.

[Turturin the Warlock]

Good point. I don't suppose that Havoc Conflags are generating double embers are they?

I'm also going to miss FnB Conflag into a pack of mobs. One of my favorite visuals. Green death!

No, havoc conflags currently generate only one shard on alpha.

[garonne]

,
Also seems weird to try and fit in portals from our staff.

portals just need to be higher priority than incinerate and they're fine. higher than conflag (which i highly doubt) and even better.

[Felpacino]

They tested 5% in the MoP beta and the value proved too high, which is why they lowered it to 4% in the first place. I wonder if it's because of synergy with the new Demon Skin talent? Which is stupid if it is.

That doesn't justify the nerf. There will be people who won't pick Demon Skin, because we'll lack CCs. They're probably nerfing skills which are strong in PvE, but even if Burning Rush is useful in PvE, we don't use in "PvE". Not in combat. They should decrease the hp sacrifice to %2 or smth.

[Deleted]

I personally like Destro right now on Alpha. There is some tweaking needing to be done of course, also needing to see how the full effect of the artifact.

I like it a lot as well, so you're not alone.

[Turturin the Warlock]

That doesn't justify the nerf. There will be people who won't pick Demon Skin, because we'll lack CCs. They're probably nerfing skills which are strong in PvE, but even if Burning Rush is useful in PvE, we don't use in "PvE". Not in combat. They should decrease the hp sacrifice to %2 or smth.

At 4% or 5% is currently irrelevant. Compared to the alternatives (teleport, dark pact), there is no situation beyond running around in dalaran that would make burning rush a good choice. Even if they buffed it to 3%, it wouldn't be worth taking. I think they could give us back burning rush at 5% baseline, and put another defensive/mobility talent in it's place (e.g. dark bargain), and the world wouldn't end.

- - - Updated - - -

I like it a lot as well, so you're not alone.

I'd prefer a little less shard income in crappy gear, i fear we're not going to feel more powerful as gear comes in if we start at such a high income baseline. While leveling i barely use incinerate. I use it so little I'm not even sure i would buff it through any artifact traits, nor would I look to the dimensional ripper reset talent as I build out the artifact tree.

The one caveat to this is I haven't done any destro dungeon or raid testing yet. It could me that as mobs live longer incinerate becomes more important.

[Jetjaguar]

The problem for a lot of us I think is that while it may end up being tuned just fine (and probably will) it just doesn't feel very fun.

But why? The only reason I can see someone not finding Legion destro not fun is because they like CR, which to that I can't say I am sympathetic. CR destro is a weed that needs to be pulled out of the spec and I'm glad they're doing it.

Outside of that, Legion Destro plays very similarly to MoP destro sans the overpowered rain of fire and fire and brimstone

[Uzkin]

No, havoc conflags currently generate only one shard on alpha.

Which means that yet another aspect of destro providing depth and rewarding skill gets cleansed away (no more havocing low-priority secondary targets into 3 x incin/conflag for extra emberbits). Removing charges from havoc and backdraft and replacing those with a timed duration is also a huge step backwards in this sense.

Really, had they just removed CR and left EVERYTHING else untouched we'd have a MUCH better spec than the one they're trying to sell us in Legion.

[Deleted]

Outside of that, Legion Destro plays very similarly to MoP destro sans the overpowered rain of fire and fire and brimstone

And of course, the almighty OG KJC (bless it's memory).

[Jetjaguar]

Which means that yet another aspect of destro providing depth and rewarding skill gets cleansed away (no more havocing low-priority secondary targets into 3 x incin/conflag for extra emberbits). Removing charges from havoc and backdraft and replacing those with a timed duration is also a huge step backwards in this sense.

Really, had they just removed CR and left EVERYTHING else untouched we'd have a MUCH better spec than the one they're trying to sell us in Legion.

Havoc immolate is better now that you're not restricted to charges so I'd argue the return on resources is potentially better. I think the loss of charges with havoc does indeed lower some aspect of skill, but I don't think it's as severe as the very existence of CR. I'm 100% behind removing charges on backdraft though. It's totally nonsensical to have a buff that benefits a spell that you don't want to use it on

[Faenskap]

What do people on alpha focus more on casting, Chaos Bolt or Shadowburn? Would a Shadowburn build be a viable option, as it costs 1 shard?

Anyone (outside Cobrak) tried PvP yet? Only found a Russian gentleman a few days ago on Twitch duelling as destro, and it wasn't too impressive. Dem Demon Hunters :O

If you have tried different specs, which feels the best/most fluent for leveling/solo-play?

Dark Soul vs Doomguard - pros and cons (Doomguard on 3 min CD just screams "meh", honestly)

Do you play with GoSac and does it feel viable? (i'd really love not to play with pets)

... and if not, how is the Imp's survivability? This is currently one of my issues with warlock demons in PvP - they just die too quickly, especially since we can't heal them. I'm also worried that playing with Dark Pact with Imp wouldn't give too much of an impressive absorb