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  1. #21
    The Lightbringer stabetha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victork8 View Post
    I think it's more about a problem with gun violence being rampant than anything else. Every third person in my country has a gun of some sort, but we rarely see any gun killings. That's probably a bigger issue than just guns being bad, but as Bernie said in some interview, it's the automatic rifles that should be banned for the regular user.
    automatic rifles are already banned and when was the last time you heard of someone using one illegally?
    you can't make this shit up
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Puupi View Post
    Austria. Not Australia.
    You are right, I forever get these two mixed up. Thank you for correcting me, I would not have caught that. (and no one else did apparently either lol)

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TITAN308 View Post
    We have no shortage of people with mental health issues.

    Before I comment any further, did you mean semi-automatic or did you mean literal automatic guns? Because my answer is going to vary greatly depending on that.
    Not an expert on guns in general but the ones like AR-14, i think. He mentioned it in an interview with some movie producer. It made sense to me, keeps guns in the hands of people that really want em but takes away the incredibly dangerous ones that are often used in school shootings because they've got the power to kill many in a few seconds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by stabetha View Post
    automatic rifles are already banned and when was the last time you heard of someone using one illegally?
    Not American so i don't know. Just an outsiders PoV.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TITAN308 View Post
    No argument there, but that was sort of besides my point. lol
    I'm still sort of struggling with what your point is. Yes, the governments of other countries allow private corporations to export guns to other nations that have different ideas about gun control. So what?

  5. #25


    Looks like gun exports keep dropping from 500K in 95 down to 200k in 2009.

    I know a lot of illegal guns move into Mexico.
    .

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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by victork8 View Post
    Not an expert on guns in general but the ones like AR-14, i think. He mentioned it in an interview with some movie producer. It made sense to me, keeps guns in the hands of people that really want em but takes away the incredibly dangerous ones that are often used in school shootings because they've got the power to kill many in a few seconds.
    Well some clarification needs to be made here. Automatic firearms have been banned from civilian consumption since 1986. You can't even own one from prior to this date without ATF approval. They are also averaging about $25,000 each because of the dwindling supply between collectors.

    The problem you will run into is this, most politicians often don't know the difference between an automatic weapons and a semi-automatic weapon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Now more to your point about weapons like the AR-15 (which is semi-automatic) being used in a crime.

    Lets put things in perspective. If you combine shotgun and rifle deaths in the USA (this would include the AR-15 style model) - they are still less than homicides caused by fist, feet, pushing, pipes, or bricks. AKA blunt objects.

    Now if you were take the couple of hundred rifle only homicides that happen every year and dwindled it down specifically to the AR-15, I believe it is something like 1% or less of those couple of hundred homicides. The AR-15 is targeted because it looks scary. Pistols and Revolvers make up something like 5,000% more homicides than the AR-15.

    The most honest gun control proponent on MMO-C once said (paraphrasing), "I don't want to ban rifles, I want to ban handguns".

    He actually made his decision based on real numbers, not emotions.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by victork8 View Post
    Not an expert on guns in general but the ones like AR-14, i think. He mentioned it in an interview with some movie producer. It made sense to me, keeps guns in the hands of people that really want em but takes away the incredibly dangerous ones that are often used in school shootings because they've got the power to kill many in a few seconds.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not American so i don't know. Just an outsiders PoV.
    Well if your knowledge is limited it's time to learn buddy!

    The AR-15 is a semi automatic rifle that is used sort of as a poster child for people who are anti gun or want stricter gun regulations. Rifles and shotguns in general are a fraction of the gun deaths in America. Most shootings and deaths by guns are caused by pistols.

    You may hear some people say this but it is not easily converted into a fully automatic weapon.

    It is not disproportionately used in mass shootings.

    It is not inherently deadlier than your typical 9mm semi automatic pistol when it comes to shooting people without body armor. The only advantage a rifle has over a pistol shooting at unarmored unarmed people is the ability to hit a target at range, and as far as I can remember the only mass shooting that didn't take place at extremely close range (where handling a pistol is easier) was the DC sniper.


    Going by numbers the most dangerous guns in America are .22 pistols. If you want to go by what a gun shoots then a World War 2 M1 Garand is more powerful than an AR-15.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TITAN308 View Post
    Well some clarification needs to be made here. Automatic firearms have been banned from civilian consumption since 1986. You can't even own one from prior to this date without ATF approval. They are also averaging about $25,000 each because of the dwindling supply between collectors.

    The problem you will run into is this, most politicians often don't know the difference between an automatic weapons and a semi-automatic weapon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Now more to your point about weapons like the AR-15 (which is semi-automatic) being used in a crime.

    Lets put things in perspective. If you combine shotgun and rifle deaths in the USA (this would include the AR-15 style model) - they are still less than homicides caused by fist, feet, pushing, pipes, or bricks. AKA blunt objects.

    Now if you were take the couple of hundred rifle only homicides that happen every year and dwindled it down specifically to the AR-15, I believe it is something like 1% or less of those couple of hundred homicides. The AR-15 is targeted because it looks scary. Pistols and Revolvers make up something like 5,000% more homicides than the AR-15.

    The most honest gun control proponent on MMO-C once said (paraphrasing), "I don't want to ban rifles, I want to ban handguns".

    He actually made his decision based on real numbers, not emotions.
    Well i for one think that the AR-15 is used to scare people because it's been used in school shootings. Didnt know about the actual stats, but regardless, i feel that it's quite impossible to turn the US into a country without guns at this point. The ones that frequently used them, will probably find a way to keep em. And that leaves the obedient majority without guns. Banning shit like this have historically had no real effect, the ban on alcohol in the 30s being a typical example.

  9. #29
    Sounds like business as usual.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy4123 View Post
    Well if your knowledge is limited it's time to learn buddy!

    The AR-15 is a semi automatic rifle that is used sort of as a poster child for people who are anti gun or want stricter gun regulations. Rifles and shotguns in general are a fraction of the gun deaths in America. Most shootings and deaths by guns are caused by pistols.

    You may hear some people say this but it is not easily converted into a fully automatic weapon.

    It is not disproportionately used in mass shootings.

    It is not inherently deadlier than your typical 9mm semi automatic pistol when it comes to shooting people without body armor. The only advantage a rifle has over a pistol shooting at unarmored unarmed people is the ability to hit a target at range, and as far as I can remember the only mass shooting that didn't take place at extremely close range (where handling a pistol is easier) was the DC sniper.


    Going by numbers the most dangerous guns in America are .22 pistols. If you want to go by what a gun shoots then a World War 2 M1 Garand is more powerful than an AR-15.

    Yes i know, that's why i rarely have an opinion on guns because I've only used one in professional practice areas and i was like 9 years old at the time. But the capability to kill people instantly with them scares me, if i personally would live in a country where i knew most people had guns i'd probably be afraid of confrontation.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by victork8 View Post
    Banning shit like this have historically had no real effect, the ban on alcohol in the 30s being a typical example.
    Oh we had a ban like prohibition for certain types of guns (primarily directed at weapons like the AR-15) from 1994-2004. It was called the "Assault Weapons Ban" enacted by Bill Clinton. It had a 10 year sunset provision and was not renewed because studies showed it had close to a 0% effective rate on crime.

    In the 17 years since the AWB was lifted (2011), only 1.4% of recovered guns in crimes would have been categorized as "assault weapons" by said AWB. I don't have any stats on hand from 2012-2016, but I doubt its budged.
    Last edited by TITAN308; 2016-04-18 at 03:11 AM.

  12. #32
    Banned Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stabetha View Post
    automatic rifles are already banned and when was the last time you heard of someone using one illegally?
    Hollywood uses them to make movies. They're not illegal, you just have to have the right permits and permissions to have them.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by TITAN308 View Post
    Oh we had a ban like prohibition for certain types of guns (primarily directed at weapons like the AR-15) from 1994-2004. It was called the "Assault Weapons Ban" enacted by Bill Clinton. It had a 10 year sunset provision and was not renewed because studies showed it had close to a 0% effective rate on crime.

    In the 17 years since the AWB was lifted, only 1.4% of recovered guns in crimes would have been categorized as "assault weapons" by said AWB.
    For the sake of lowering gun violence the discussion should be moved to attitudes towards guns imo. It's easy to just say ban them, it's more difficult to actually lower the part of it that's violence. But for the threads topic, there's not a voice that represents every country. Like in my country i'm sure those 33% that own a gun wouldn't argue for a ban in the US, probably the same people that sell them or export them. We mainly export stuff for the military though, not the average person.

  14. #34
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    If they didn't, the companies would just open production facilities in the US, and it wouldn't matter, and many already have anyways... I figure they realize those companies are going to sell us guns either way, this way they get all the tax money.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    Hollywood uses them to make movies. They're not illegal, you just have to have the right permits and permissions to have them.
    There is a completely different permitting system between real fully automatic guns and ones used to fire blanks. Basically some special parts have to be permanently attached (aka welded) so that the weapon is incapable of firing anything other than blanks.

    If they use a real machine gun it is probably on loan from the actual owner who has the proper ATF paper work for it.

    Government Agencies and Class III dealers (so they can in turn sell to said agencies) can still buy modern machine guns with the proper paper work, but that is sort of a "duh" thing because its the government, they get a free pass. Just requires proper agency letterhead and some $$$

  16. #36
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    "We need to make money. Quick, name an expensive product and a group of people who will buy way more than they need."
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by TITAN308 View Post
    Well the greatest irony for me are people who claim other countries are so much more enlightened about gun control than the USA, but basically their own country is contributing to said "problem" to the tune of millions of guns - but you would be hard pressed for them to... well, care. Like you said, we aren't even talking about military exports, but exports for civilian consumption.

    I mean, am I choosing the wrong word for this? Is irony a bad choice?
    Irony would be if we turned around and invaded and took control of gun exportation using the guns sold to us by that nation.

    Let's all ride the Gish gallop.

  18. #38
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stabetha View Post
    automatic rifles are already banned and when was the last time you heard of someone using one illegally?

    They are very much not banned, the production and sale of NEW machine guns to civilians is simply prohibited, any that were manufactured and registered with the ATF before May 1986 are still perfectly legal to buy and sell - they are just extremely expensive (usually around 10-20x the price of their semi auto counterparts) because there aren't that many out there, they are now collectors items and the people that have them want to keep them.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2016-04-18 at 03:24 AM.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  19. #39
    Banned Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TITAN308 View Post
    There is a completely different permitting system between real fully automatic guns and ones used to fire blanks.
    They're not "completely" different. I've seen private weapon collections that include all kinds of functioning automatic weapons, all legally obtained through permits. They're difficult and expensive to obtain, but you can own them. The movie industry has such collections as well and it's not hard to modify a weapon to fire blanks and vice versa.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    They're not "completely" different. I've seen private weapon collections that include all kinds of functioning automatic weapons, all legally obtained through permits. They're difficult and expensive to obtain, but you can own them. The movie industry has such collections as well and it's not hard to modify a weapon to fire blanks and vice versa.
    I correct myself; you don't even need ATF permissions for a blank firing only gun.

    http://www.blank-guns-depot.com/blan...p-1-c-407.html

    Anything else would covered under the NFA of 1932. Yes I suppose movie studios may have a collection of real automatic weapons under a Trust. (its the same thing I use for my NFA stuff) - I still my have doubts any of their "real" machine guns however would be post 1986 models as I do not recall anywhere to make an exemption because they make movies.

    They could contract an agency that uses post 1986 models to come out and let them handle it in their presence is my guess. (kind of like when Mythbusters would get a guy some come out from local bomb squad with C4 explosives)
    Last edited by TITAN308; 2016-04-18 at 03:38 AM.

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