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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by RickJamesLich View Post
    ZG definitely counts when you consider that a lot of the items, despite being a lower ilvl were upgrades compared to BWL. Not just in ZG but outside of it (for example the bloodvine set was BIS up to the beginning of Naxx). Even players that had BiS from BWL would still want to run ZG if they wanted to acquire even better gear, essentially.
    True gear was extremely weird back then when the ilvl difference was smaller(ZG to AQ 40 was like 20 ilvls) and stats were skewed in weird ways like plate users using agi items.

  2. #142
    Moar butthurt plz

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    People said exactly the same about WoD at the end of MoP and look how that turned out and I have little doubt that people will repeating this message at the end of Legion.
    So you're saying they can't learn from their mistakes? Nope, not jumping on the hate-train. Go away, you're not as cool as you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    BrF was ALWAYS intended to be the exact same tier as HM just as the three in MoP were, but they wanted to release it later so people wouldn't abandon HM as quickly as people abandoned MSV. In terms of the vanilla listing, 5 is definitely off, but I could go with 4 since the original BRS, Statholme and Scholo were raids initially(albeit not by our standards). Can't really count ZG since ZG's ilvl is below any of the raids.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Except with what is visible from the Alpha and the August release date announced, they better have a lot more content that they have hidden that hasn't been pushed to the alpha server yet.
    The alpha has a good amount of content and I haven't even tried the raids yet. It's looking really good so far.
    What is it you think is missing?

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Good. I'm glad they aren't putting more work into WoD. Make Legion the best it can be and lets end this expantion.
    Let's hope so. I'm not convinced they can lose subs in this quantity a second time, and still find the game profitable. It might be, but I'm not convinced.

  5. #145
    they should consider a smaller # of bosses per tier. then they could try getting more out. ideally, a tier should never last longer than 6 months.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    How do you figure BWL would be with MC? MC and Ony are 11 bosses, that is a sizable tier in itself. BWL was 8 a touch lower, but add ZG to it to make a full amount of content. I do think ZG being as its own is a bit iffy, could easily toss it in to BWL tier for a more accurate assessment.

    But the chart does show a lack of more constant content patches. We will see how Legion does, but if it is more of the same, I don't think WoW will last much longer as the head of MMORPGs.
    True. I did sort of mess that up. What I meant is that vanilla would have been more like the TBC model. Having two tiers available on release T1: MC/Ony & T2: BWL. Like now T4 & T5 were shipped with TBC launch.

    Basically I was trying to say I would consider MC, BWL, AQ40, and Naxx to be raid tiers. Giving Vanilla 4 tiers, not 5. While ZG/AQ20 where still considerable content, they were more meant for catch-up for smaller guilds and non-regular raiders.

  7. #147
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    Please don't compare vanilla progression in regards to today's standards, it's completely apples to orange and is probably the most unfair comparison you can make.

    Bosses and instances had a longer life span back then for a multitude of reasons, and none of them are because the game was mechanically difficult. WoW was most peoples first MMO, and outside of a couple dozen guilds pretty much nobody had done raids before prior to WoW. What experience people had at raiding was pretty much exclusively tied to Everquest, and while some of the design was similar, WoW evolved the raiding game by quite a bit.

    Furthermore you just have to look at how long people raided, and how often people raided back then. How prepared people were and the shear amount of hours people put into shit aren't nearly the same in vanilla as they are today. You have guilds clearing content in 2-3 weeks max now, with bosses that are far more mechanically difficult because not only are people better at the game now, but they raid far more than they ever did back then. The game also worked against you back then. No longer do you have to wait several days, or weeks rather for them to fix game breaking bugs, or blatantly unfair mechanics. They patch that shit in a day or two at best now when something is shown to them to be broken. If you want a good example of this, just look at how long they left Ouro and C'thun in their launch state before fixing them. Game was also far more of a gear check back then, although if people took today's approach to vanilla raiding it probably wouldn't be a problem. Doing split runs in any kind of mass, let alone having several raid ready alternate characters wasn't common place.

    All that said, vanilla certainly wasn't lacking in content. You had dungeons released, raids released, pvp system released and BGs released. Never really got any world content though, but thankfully leveling took 400 years so it kinda hid the pretty terrible leveling experience (don't get me wrong, it was 5 million times better than the alternative MMOs at the time).

    I don't know why people are so fixated on the amount of tiers though. Theoretically two raid tiers in WoD is fine, but only if those two took place over a year, maybe slightly more. And only if they added solid filler patches (doesn't have to be raid tiers) to expand upon the stories, and ultimately things they absolutely failed to expand upon in WoD. Instead we got a two tier expansion that's going to last about 15 months, that had the potential to have an okay story, but completely dropped the ball by rushing it's conclusion just after it's finished.

  8. #148
    Dam Blizzard really are taking the piss 3yrs and only 3 raid tiers

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    So you're saying they can't learn from their mistakes? Nope, not jumping on the hate-train. Go away, you're not as cool as you think.
    What makes you think that they have made a mistake?

  10. #150
    Well I made this, I think it's self-explanatory.
    Last edited by Torm; 2016-04-19 at 06:10 PM.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    What makes you think that they have made a mistake?
    i am mixed on this one. reduced development investment is a no-brainer no matter what the blue crew propagandizes at blizzcon and in interviews.

    then i read about blizzard the place to work and it seems like there is internal management dysfunction as well, which could well lead to bottlenecks or other unhelpful product delays/removed features. I don't know that this is why so many features from 4.x fwd have been scrapped after being discussed. If not, it begs the question WHY were features that were clearly planned for inclusion scrapped?

    How on earth do they plan to make faralohn and then kill it??? I saw partially completed art a while ago on it and it seems to be something they could properly assign teams to with some expectation of finishing it. Why bother to announce and start the retro-version of an old outland zone then stop part-way through?

    It is weird. it implies terrible internal controls on productivity or some other aspect of matters.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2016-04-19 at 06:11 PM.
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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewhan View Post
    look at that beauty that is TBC good times indeed my favorite in WoW was a great raid schedule I had then never got burned out even when rushing realm first on server.
    People were not too happy with SWPs gated raids at the time, especially if you were in a progression guild pushing content. =P

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torm View Post
    Well I made this, I think it's self-explanatory.
    Damn, 168 days of one boss raid only. WotLK was really bad

  14. #154
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    Pathetic at best.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Kae View Post
    Damn, 168 days of one boss raid only. WotLK was really bad
    Well obviously you count it together with ICC ^^

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kae View Post
    Damn, 168 days of one boss raid only. WotLK was really bad
    3.4 definitely needs an asterisks. I think 2.3 does too since it was parallel content and progression guilds were already beyond it before it released in some cases.

    I dont know classic raid progression well enough to critique. i DO know both classic and tbc need a big * saying 'you had to finish the raid before and possibly farm it some to progress in the next one, for the most part.
    Authors I have enjoyed enough to mention here: JRR Tolkein, Poul Anderson,Jack Vance, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Brian Stableford, MAR Barker, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, WM Hodgson, Fredrick Brown, Robert SheckleyJohn Steakley, Joe Abercrombie, Robert Silverberg, the norse sagas, CJ Cherryh, PG Wodehouse, Clark Ashton Smith, Alastair Reynolds, Cordwainer Smith, LE Modesitt, L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt, Stephen R Donaldon, and Jack L Chalker.

  17. #157
    They need to stop messing with old visuals after Legion. It's just sad when you think that BC had that much with the Sunwell event. 6 months should be the target, over 8 months with noting new is bad for the game. I can understand them wanting to update some things, but they really need to get more content in the game faster.
    Last edited by thatmikeguy; 2016-04-19 at 06:44 PM.

  18. #158
    I just counted days from release of the tier till the release of the next tier. It is supposed only to show dates pretty much. It is not supposed to show how long did the tier progression lasted.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Torm View Post
    Well I made this, I think it's self-explanatory.
    Easy to see why people like Wrath, Vanilla, and BC with those numbers.
    Last edited by thatmikeguy; 2016-04-19 at 06:45 PM.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    What would you like Blizzard to do to ease your butthurt? Stop working on Legion and push another tier in WOD?
    Why can't they do both at the same time? Didn't the say they've increased the size of their team a lot?
    Pretty sure they've promised more and faster content patches ever since Cataclysm, yet what we got was the complete opposite.

    Apparently the people working on Vanilla (and to a lesser extent TBC / Wrath) were more competent.

    I have a feeling that Blizzard's management is ruining the company by shitloads of bureaucracy. That's why they can't get shit done even with a bigger team. It's a mess. Everyone is working against eachother instead of working as a team. This is just a simple guess but it would explain a lot.

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