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  1. #21
    I personally think that the buff idea is pretty cool. I'm willing to sacrifice a small portion of my own dps if these buffs are truly worthwhile to the raid. As long as the combination of the buff and our dps is worthy to bring a paladin to raid, I'll be happy with it.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Reigh View Post
    I personally think that the buff idea is pretty cool. I'm willing to sacrifice a small portion of my own dps if these buffs are truly worthwhile to the raid. As long as the combination of the buff and our dps is worthy to bring a paladin to raid, I'll be happy with it.
    I'd look at it as a melee version if disc. Instead of healing via atonement you Buff via greater blessings and your abilities can Buff the targets further.

  3. #23
    Outside of the opener, I don't think target swapping will be as mandated as some people feel necessary. It's only a 10% chance to proc, so you would primarily be focusing on fast hitting classes (rogues/Ferals) or if it applies the damage from casters attacks more towards a Mage. The reasoning is that with casts, it's always strong hitting spells that will benefit a proc, where as there is no gaurantee Warriors execute would get the proc over their while hits.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthane View Post
    tl;dr
    I can understand your nerf fears but come on. Let's not let our hopes of invincibility run away with us.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    I can understand your nerf fears but come on. Let's not let our hopes of invincibility run away with us.
    You may have misunderstood everything here. This concept was based in addition to someone posting Seal ideas and thought to throw it in here. Since then the ideal has evolved as others had posted. It is not nerf fears, it is embracing the concept of Greater Blessings and perhaps Equality and finding ways to make it match the class Fantasy. All numbers can be adjusted and tweaked.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Yeah the problem with the blessing system is your output/ranking will depend on your guildies as much as you. So, if you don't have 2-3 really good DPS on your raid, you are gonna lag benhind. I really dislike that design... but whatever.
    The other side of this is, you can leech off the flavor of the month classes (mage as of late), but obvioulsy that is only beneficial if you have really good mages in your raid. It's all very helpless when your DPS doesnt depend on you.

    I also wonder how sim craft is gonna determine the Ret DPS with that variance. Will they pick the 3 best DPS or will they make of average of all? Its surely going to be a mess.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2016-03-09 at 10:18 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Yeah the problem with the blessing system is your output/ranking will depend on your guildies as much as you. So, if you don't have 2-3 really good DPS on your raid, you are gonna lag benhind. I really dislike that design... but whatever.
    The other side of this is, you can leech off the flavor of the month classes (mage as of late), but obvioulsy that is only beneficial if you have really good mages in your raid. It's all very helpless when your DPS doesnt depend on you.

    I also wonder how sim craft is gonna determine the Ret DPS with that variance. Will they pick the 3 best DPS or will they make of average of all? Its surely going to be a mess.
    You should be able to near always get an advantageous spread over design % due to abusing specs that do well on specific fights (FOTM doesn't really matter so much as putting it on dotters for council fights, or people getting a buff from a mechanic, etc)

    As for simcraft, do people care? I can't remember the last time someone brought up simcraft, and it's never been reliable for cross-class analysis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  8. #28
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    The new system will be as straight forward and one dimensional as the current one. The idea of sacrificing personal DPS for the greater good of the raid has so much potential for interesting and complex gameplay that I can assure you it will never happen.

  9. #29
    I like the changes personally

  10. #30
    My biggest worry is that this is going to force me to track all the raid groups CDs and turning me in to the buff bot paladins were in vanilla, where I have to spend the whole boss fight juggling buffs on different players who are popping CDs instead of focusing on doing damage myself. If that's the case this will be the first expansion in like 7 years that I don't main my paladin.

    Also I don't like the though of my dps not beaning up to me and if I play well. A great paladin who play with mediocre players might do lower dps than an mediocre paladin who plays with great players.
    Last edited by Ater; 2016-04-19 at 10:26 AM.

  11. #31
    Deleted
    You can be sure it'll be changed to something like you can't swap during combat. I don't think they want you to track everyone and play buffjockey for the entirety of a fight. It just wouldn't be a good thing, it opens up so much abuse towards paladins, in hey why did i not get it, or hey ill pay you for it, same reason why the removed focus magic, old dark intent, power infusion and tricks of the trade, because it just wasn't fun.

  12. #32
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Karwyn View Post
    Hey guys. I don't have alpha myself and in general I'm trying to avoid to much info about legion (wanting to experience it for myself) but I have been hearing disturbing things about ret pallies being specifically designed to be a weaker for of dps to compensate for the new blessings we are getting (which seem to be pretty universally despised anyway, can't say I love the idea of it either) I don't have alpha access myself or know any rets who do. Can someone who is in it please just give me an answer about rets "feeling" (I'm aware fun is subjective and numbers are subject to change, I just want to know that my main isn't going to feel like a sidekick come legion). Also is the blessing design set in stone or will blizz maybe realize how many people hate it and relent?
    The feeling that I'm getting is that people on the alpha are pretty ok with how Ret is on the whole, but people who only have access to it "on paper" Fucking hate it to it's very bones. Like, literally it's the worst think that's ever going into the game ever. Like literally, you'll have to delete your Paladin or you'll want to scratch out your eyeballs as soon as you log in, let alone try playing it. Oh my god. Blizzard should just die already.

    But hey, some guys like oranges. I prefer apples, so who knows.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasher View Post
    The feeling that I'm getting is that people on the alpha are pretty ok with how Ret is on the whole, but people who only have access to it "on paper" Fucking hate it to it's very bones. Like, literally it's the worst think that's ever going into the game ever. Like literally, you'll have to delete your Paladin or you'll want to scratch out your eyeballs as soon as you log in, let alone try playing it. Oh my god. Blizzard should just die already.

    But hey, some guys like oranges. I prefer apples, so who knows.
    ..people on alpha that are happy?
    Let's browse just a little bit, if only between those that are present on this very forum.
    Just so, you know, our words hold some weight.
    We aren't blabbermouths after all are we?

    Solsacra - purely dragonslaying PoV. Yet even he voices concerns and dislikes, but in a very, like very, discreet way.
    Regnome - can't help himself but to rub in our faces how great he feels oneshotting people on alpha, completely ignored mechanics -related issues and concerns. Quite possibly is a giant dousche.
    Animefreak3K /Drownlord - overall positive with Ret I guess, but is slightly more open minded about issues and concerns regarding spec. Does not push the issue through to developers ththough.
    Thete- brilliantly, cynically spot-on with all the snark and all not too subtle disdain towards these "developers" and their approach to anything Retribution -related.

    So yeah, all in all, people with alpha access are generally happy.

    Sure as sure.

  14. #34
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    ..people on alpha that are happy?
    Let's browse just a little bit, if only between those that are present on this very forum.
    Just so, you know, our words hold some weight.
    We aren't blabbermouths after all are we?

    Solsacra - purely dragonslaying PoV. Yet even he voices concerns and dislikes, but in a very, like very, discreet way.
    Regnome - can't help himself but to rub in our faces how great he feels oneshotting people on alpha, completely ignored mechanics -related issues and concerns. Quite possibly is a giant dousche.
    Animefreak3K /Drownlord - overall positive with Ret I guess, but is slightly more open minded about issues and concerns regarding spec. Does not push the issue through to developers ththough.
    Thete- brilliantly, cynically spot-on with all the snark and all not too subtle disdain towards these "developers" and their approach to anything Retribution -related.

    So yeah, all in all, people with alpha access are generally happy.

    Sure as sure.
    HAHAHA, I've missed this Stormie, I really have.

    So Sol, Reg and Anime are as I say... pretty ok with Ret as it is (not ecstatic about it, but I wasn't claiming that, was I?) and one guy, Thete - hates it along with every paper-based theory crafter in the world ever.

    Alright, alright. 75% of the players with alpha access polled by our resident lead doomsayer think Ret isn't in a state that makes them want to kill themselves. I apologise for being overly optimistic Storm.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasher View Post
    HAHAHA, I've missed this Stormie, I really have.

    So Sol, Reg and Anime are as I say... pretty ok with Ret as it is (not ecstatic about it, but I wasn't claiming that, was I?) and one guy, Thete - hates it along with every paper-based theory crafter in the world ever.

    Alright, alright. 75% of the players with alpha access polled by our resident lead doomsayer think Ret isn't in a state that makes them want to kill themselves. I apologise for being overly optimistic Storm.
    Thing is, devil is in the details, Vash, and you so skillfully chose to ignore them, but who am I to nitpick I'm just a resident lead doomsayer after all.

    But I will have you acknowledge these details one way or the other.
    So here is how so listen gud:

    Solsacra touches only one part of game - dragonslaying, and even towards it he does voice dislikes and concerns regarding certain mechanics and talents. HE is just very-very subtle and low-profile about it. Does it strike you as entirely happy? Or throughly relevant? Don't think so.

    Regumme - is literally oblivious to all and any concerns regarding spec mechanics, depths, isssues. All he cares and provides feedback about is how he oneshots people. Does it strike you as solid, respectable insight? Also, he's quite possible a giant bag of raging, self-centered manhoods.

    Animefreak - yeah quite happy yet still raises issues now and then regarding a few obvious problems spec has to face. But he is able to form coherent feedback so Ill give you that.

    And now Thete... You know the drill. I dont need to add a thing.

    So all in all, does it look to you like a 75% in your favor?
    Does it look that way when 1 tester simply ignores half of the game while still adding concerns regarding core issues, the second one is quite probably a extraterrestial asshat caring only about oneshot, and the third one is not entirely sold and happy aswell?

    And for the record: I'm no doomsayer.
    I'm truthsayer.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasher View Post
    The feeling that I'm getting is that people on the alpha are pretty ok with how Ret is on the whole, but people who only have access to it "on paper" Fucking hate it to it's very bones. Like, literally it's the worst think that's ever going into the game ever. Like literally, you'll have to delete your Paladin or you'll want to scratch out your eyeballs as soon as you log in, let alone try playing it. Oh my god. Blizzard should just die already.

    But hey, some guys like oranges. I prefer apples, so who knows.
    A quick glance through the class feedback forum reveals that people are overall not ok with Ret, but are pretty much giving up because Blizzard wont even give us the time of day.

    You're welcome to use those views of other people to fuel your opinions. But in the end are you any better than us people who only have "on paper" data to work with?

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    Thing is, devil is in the details, Vash, and you so skillfully chose to ignore them, but who am I to nitpick I'm just a resident lead doomsayer after all.

    But I will have you acknowledge these details one way or the other.
    So here is how so listen gud:

    Solsacra touches only one part of game - dragonslaying, and even towards it he does voice dislikes and concerns regarding certain mechanics and talents. HE is just very-very subtle and low-profile about it. Does it strike you as entirely happy? Or throughly relevant? Don't think so.

    Regumme - is literally oblivious to all and any concerns regarding spec mechanics, depths, isssues. All he cares and provides feedback about is how he oneshots people. Does it strike you as solid, respectable insight? Also, he's quite possible a giant bag of raging, self-centered manhoods.

    Animefreak - yeah quite happy yet still raises issues now and then regarding a few obvious problems spec has to face. But he is able to form coherent feedback so Ill give you that.

    And now Thete... You know the drill. I dont need to add a thing.

    So all in all, does it look to you like a 75% in your favor?
    Does it look that way when 1 tester simply ignores half of the game while still adding concerns regarding core issues, the second one is quite probably a extraterrestial asshat caring only about oneshot, and the third one is not entirely sold and happy aswell?

    And for the record: I'm no doomsayer.
    I'm truthsayer.
    So wait, wait - let me get this straight. I'm not going to wade in with quotes or anything, I'm just going to go off your post.

    Sol and Reg are, by and large, PvE related - and they're pretty ok (are we working off different definitions of "pretty ok" here? Do you think I mean "jumping for joy", or what?) with the state of Ret right now. In dragonslaying of course. I mean, I know you don't care about that but I get the feeling op does like one or two others around here.

    Anime, seems to PvP. A lot. Seems to do it well, too, no doubt he knows what he's talking about. And you're telling me he's not just "pretty ok" here, he's... quite happy? What, is the guy a fucking lunatic or something? I'd be raising some alarms at his local schools or something, people who are quite happy with Ret PvP in Legion are clearly in danger of shooting one up judging by the opinions of those who aren't playing it yet. Clearly some mental issues there.

    And Thete? Well, he's Thete. His opinion is no less valid of course, he's just like... "fuck oranges and apples, I like strawberries." Fair play to him.

    So to sum up, 2 of 4 are "pretty ok". (50%) One is "quite happy" (Is that like a critical "pretty ok"? does he get more than 25% here? Fuck it, let's settle at 1 in 4 so 25% still). and one... likes strawberries (let's just say he wants to see it all burn - he's the 0% pretty ok).

    I'm still at 75% here judging by my maths. You?

    Then of course, there's the thousands of Ret players who aren't playing it but see nothing but ashes like you. (Ashes - lol. Cuz Ashbringer.) But there's so many of you, you must be in the right here.... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunavale View Post
    A quick glance through the class feedback forum reveals that people are overall not ok with Ret, but are pretty much giving up because Blizzard wont even give us the time of day.

    You're welcome to use those views of other people to fuel your opinions. But in the end are you any better than us people who only have "on paper" data to work with?
    Too late Luna, poll's already closed. I won't stand for your logic here, all those whiners are just salty they get no blue posts anyway. Of course they're crying.

    And no, I'm not. I just saw a dude asking if Paladins really are the lamest lame that ever lamed in the world of lame and thought I'd pop in with a "cheer up, love. It's not all bad." (In the voice of Tracer in my head, is that weird?)

    Plus, I just like to mix shit up now and again for my pal Stormie, don't worry - I'll go away again soon and you can all go back to the wailing and the gnashing of teeth again.
    Last edited by mmoc82e782b950; 2016-04-19 at 05:49 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthane View Post
    I'd look at it as a melee version if disc. Instead of healing via atonement you Buff via greater blessings and your abilities can Buff the targets further.
    That's cool and all, but how much dps would we be sacrificing? The reason you role a dps spec rather than healer is to put out damage/dps. Not really sure how this whole support thing is going to look like in the scheme of things, and I really hope we aren't going to be sacrificing dps to have this support role forced on us. I don't mind a support role as long as it's either 1. A choice or 2. Not sacrificing my dps for it.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    That's cool and all, but how much dps would we be sacrificing? The reason you role a dps spec rather than healer is to put out damage/dps. Not really sure how this whole support thing is going to look like in the scheme of things, and I really hope we aren't going to be sacrificing dps to have this support role forced on us. I don't mind a support role as long as it's either 1. A choice or 2. Not sacrificing my dps for it.
    Well damn this post was done a long while ago : / I was posting this in regard to double down on Greater blessings. If you actually see my posts on the 7.0 thread you see they are for dps.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthane View Post
    Well damn this post was done a long while ago : / I was posting this in regard to double down on Greater blessings. If you actually see my posts on the 7.0 thread you see they are for dps.
    Shit sorry, didn't realize how long ago that was, my bad. Yeah, I've seen your posts in the 7.0 forum, my bad, didn't realize how long ago you posted that.

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