He was one of the first five Knights of the Silver Hand selected by Archbishop Alonsus Faol. That along was enough for him to be able to wield and cleanse the Ashbringer. He was a very powerful paladin. I'm not sure what Arthas or the Scourge have to do with it. He didn't lose any family member to the Scourge, but he lost his entire country.
Tirion wanted to help Etrigg because he owed his life to him. It was a matter of honor. Why do you hate him so much?
You still have to offer a reasonable argument for why this is the case. You hate him for reasons that exists in your head alone. But then again, you seem to live in a realm of headcanon so is nothing shocking.
Yeah, because he lost everything already just to uphold honor. And seriously, he lost nothing to the Scourge? He had a wife he was forced to abandon and definitely died, let alone he saw everything he fought for and the kingdom he dedicated most of his life to protect hopelessly destroyed by the Scourge and Arthas' treachery, in other words the same shit every other paladin went through. What Abbendis and Isillien lost more than him? The sanity? How they were more related to Arthas? Of course, Tirion was not Uther but he at least had some brief conversations with Arthas in his life and the latter acknowledged his reputation. This alone is more than Abbendis, Isillien or even Mograine ever got.He is the person who had the least to do with Arthas and he lost nothing to the scourge.
Funny how a character created by Metzen himself shouldn't be worthy of consideration, because you know, Metzen isn't the guy responsible of the existence of this lore's franchise to begin with. And no, Tirion didn't "betray" his order, he did nothing to betray them. All he did is take responsibility of his choices instead of choosing the easy way and betray Eitrigg to preserve his status, reputation and wealth. But since orcs were "creatures of darkness" and evil incarnate that was enough to guarantee him banishment from all the civilized lands of Lordaeron.He was nothing more than this Guy who betrayed his order and was the Hero of the only Novel Metzen has written by himself.
The paradise of the worst kind of RP, basically.
Still waiting for Danath's return to finally restore Stromgarde to its former glory.
Just some video evidence
https://youtu.be/eYNCCu0y-Is?t=146
And World of Pandacraft or World of One Dimensional Super Toleranz Super Hero Factions is better?
It wasn't his country anymore, he betrayed it.
By saving Eitrigg while attacking his own comrads, he took the Law into his own hands. It wasn't about honor or justice, it was about who he has sympathy with. Eitrigg was a veteran of the first two Wars. He was guilty. He deserved the punishment. It was Tirion who has decided that it's not about the guilty or the innocent who has to be punished and who not, but only about who he has sympathy with. Tirion decided, that his own life was worth more than the lifes of all the Warriors of the Alliance, all the Innocents Eitrigg has killed as a veteran of the Horde.
And then, years after that, he decides that the Scarlet Crusade is to blame for the misery of his son, not himself, who has left his Son because he saved a War Criminal, only because he liked him. The Scarlet Crusade were evil, sure, but at least they did something against the Scourge and they even gave Taelan a high rank, made him Mograine sucessor as Highlord of the Crusade, despite his fathers crimes. Tirion manipulated his own son into desert and killin his own man while doing so and then took nothing but bloodthirsty Vengeance against Isilien for killing Taelan, a punishment he had deceived in every army on Azeroth. If Garrosh as Leader of the Warsong Offensive had tried to desert from the Horde and attacked his own Man, he would have been executed. If Taylor had tried the same thing, they would had executed him. Probably even Tirion has Highlord of the Argent Crusade would have executed every man who did what Taelan did. Again, it is all about Tirions own sympathy and feelings, who is guilty and who is not.
Yeah, Isillien probably deserved to die because of many reason, but not because of killing Taelan. Taelan deserted and attacked his man. He took the easy way, instead of using his Power as Highlord and trying to change the Crusade from within. Taelan was a weakling who only did what he wanted, like his Father.
And that's why I don't like Tirion. I don't can see him as a real Paladin, worth of wielding the Ashbringer.
Share your opinion GCSmith, and I'll pose this as the answer. There is no reason. It's the exact same dumbassed reason that Garrosh went evil and Jaina went insane. They can't come up with new characters so they have to destroy pre-existing ones to try and drive the story. All they are doing though is driving me back to FFXIV.
I agree with you. I saw a post on the Alpha where someone proposed using Taelan as the final Death Knight. I thought it was sound compared to the current idea of the Ebon Blade basically saying: "Ok guys! Lets go attack Light's Hope again, second time's the charm!!".
Taelan was fighting the good fight until he lost it mentally over his father. Evidently Balnazzar ordered his execution for some reason, though I never have heard the reason behind it. Supposedly Isillien was coming to kill him when he defected. But you know, that just sets him up as a even better candidate. Taelan died with a lot of loose strings unlike his father. I could see him taking Mograine's offer.
By contrast I can't see Tirion doing so, unless they decide to make a conclusive arc where Tirion's decision to aid Eitrigg causes post mortem vilification and shows that his choice was a evil and honor-less one. Right now Tirion is deemed "the Paladin that cleansed the uncleansable".
That has to change IMHO if he is to be a Death Knight Horseman. It'd also not hurt to replace his statue with a different Paladin, like.. I dunno Crusader Bridenbrad, Dagren Orcslayer or maybe even Saiden Dathrohan, since Balnazzar is our great foe this expansion?
For me, it just seems cheap to have a Statue of Tirion in the Paladin Hall if his fate winds up being the same as Arthas' own in a fashion.
Because of? That's my opinion. What has saving Eitrigg had to do with honor or justice? What do we learn about Tirion as a Paladin? That it is not about truth or duty or justice, but only about sympathy who has to be saved and who not? Eitrigg war a veteran of the first two wars, a war criminal, a tool of the burning Legion. He probably commited countless crimes against Draenei and Human. Why does he deserve to live?
Now I'm crazy because I view the Character more critical and have my own opinion, instead of liking Tirion because the novel suggests me to like him? I don't like him and I don't understand how someone can view him as a perfect role model for a Paladin. If every Paladin was like Tirion, everyone would just to what they want and they it's okay because of their honor.
You misinterpret and twist events to fit your own bias. Tirion is just one of those things, you do the same on countless others, included your beloved Scarlet Crusade. I could have undermined point by point the hilarity of your first post but I know how much of an exercise in futility it was going to be. But let's address the one point you had the audacity to slap on my face again:
You see the flaws of your argument? If Eitrigg would have been treated like an actual individual and not a beast he should have been charged to death based on proof that he wasn't just a resigned and lonely enemy soldier but a bloodthirsty war criminal. The humans didn't want him dead for what he personally did, they had no idea whatsoever of what he did. All they knew is that Eitrigg was an orc and so an embodiment of everything humanity sufferred at the orcs' hands. They abused him and treated him like shit simply because they had this easy, comfortable target on which puke their frustrations over. And when you asked the reasons of this the answer was: "But he's an orc!"What has saving Eitrigg had to do with honor or justice? What do we learn about Tirion as a Paladin? That it is not about truth or duty or justice, but only about sympathy who has to be saved and who not? Eitrigg war a veteran of the first two wars, a war criminal, a tool of the burning Legion. He probably commited countless crimes against Draenei and Human. Why does he deserve to live?
That has nothing to do with justice whatsoever.
If anything we, the readers, had abundant evidence that Eitrigg was quite a great person on his own, who simply performed his duty and didn't think twice about abandon his people and live an existence of solidute the moment it became evident the Horde was hopelessly corrupted. How many orcs did the same? Besides the Frostwolves, none. Why he deserved death above everyone else? Did Saurfang got axed? No, he was thrown into a camp, and we know he indeed committed horrible acts in the past, he admitted that himself. Eitrigg never shown to bear the same burden. So yeah, where's the justice in that? Why, of all orcs, Eitrigg specifically didn't deserve a second chance?
He saved Tirion's life when he had absolutely zero obligations to do so. Hell, he had all the convenience of simply let him die. But he still saved him because Eitrigg was a warrior who valued honor and respected Tirion for being an equally honorable warrior, action that would have blatantly risked the secrecy of his position if Tirion would have simply ran to inform his kingdom of the orc's presence in his lands. And Eitrigg had no guarantee whatsoever that Tirion wouldn't have simply did that.
It was a blatant act of selflessness based on his own beliefs and the number of Humans who would have had the balls to do the same wouldn't fit in the fingers of one hand. No shit Tirion felt a genuine sense of obligation to return the favor with a likewise selfless act, no matter how biased and blindfolded the rest of humanity was at the time. Doing otherwise would have been nothing but a mere act of convenience, betraying Eitrigg's trust just to maintain his reputation, status and wealth, let alone his family, thing that would have come so damn easy to Tirion considered the respect he held and how he could have been pardoned of everything by simply saying "nah, fuck that orc, he's a beast, treat him as such, just pardon me and let's forget this shit", that's the exact thing any average individual would have done. But he chose the hard way and all he obtained just to do what he deemed right is banishment into the wilderness. He fell from the highest amount of power, wealth and respect one could dream to live like an hermit. Go figure.
Doing what Tirion did is the textbook definition of what a real Paladin would do, endure personal sacrifice to oppose an injustice. And he had enough personal experience and understanding of Eitrigg as a person to firmly believe that kill him like a beast was one. What you did to deem this a whismical act based on his liking for an orc (forgetting Tirion was as much biased towards orcs as every other human before meeting Eitrigg) is one the most unbearable spinning attempts I ever read. It's not that the novel suggests you to like him, is that you barely read the novel to begin with, you read a completely different one playing in your head.
The only reason you're unable to comprehend this is because you're biased by your "ALLIANCE GOOD HORDE BAD" mindset and huge boner for the Scarlets that makes you forsake any degree of good sense. If you're not able to get it after this then I fucking give up, believe what you want to believe and keep hating a character for your self-fabricated reasons.
I agree with you on that. I wish we had more interaction between characters who as you said, should have at the very least some small desire to see each other.
I was dissapointed that Thoras didn't even mention Dannath when he got raised. He only asked about his son and kingdom.
Thassarian : What about your beloved nephew my lord? Are you not going to ask about Dannath?
Thoras : What? Who is this man you speak of?
Thassarian : Dannath my lord, hero of Stromgarde and the last living Trollbane! The last of your line!
Thoras : Lol wtf who cares
Well said, you really beat me to the punch on this one. I spent most my day at work thinking about how to voice my disgust over that post, coming home to find out you pretty much said everything I wanted to say.
I think, what baffles me the most about it all. Is the same person also claimed Uther was what they think of when they think Paladin. Uther would commend Tirion and condem the scarlets.
Self Sacrifice, and Justice (not vengeance.) are the two biggest corner stones of the Paladin in World of Warcraft. It's why the silverhand picked the symbol they have to start with, the great message the guardian Tyr taught humanity. "True order and justice can only be accomplished through personal sacrifice." Tirion sacrificed everything he had in the name of justice. To quote Uther. "Remember, Arthas, we are paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the Orcs." Every freaking Paladin who is fueled by vengeance goes down one of two paths. They fall from grace and become monsters (Arthas) or they see the error of their ways and have a redemption story. (Liadrin.)
At this point I've decided M-ra has no love for what Paladins actually are in Warcraft lore, only what she wants them to be.
Or I just don't see this white knight shiny Dude as a Hero and have my own Opinion.
You see the flaws of your argument? If Eitrigg would have been treated like an actual individual and not a beast he should have been charged to death based on proof that he wasn't just a resigned and lonely enemy soldier but a bloodthirsty war criminal. The humans didn't want him dead for what he personally did, they had no idea whatsoever of what he did. All they knew is that Eitrigg was an orc and so an embodiment of everything humanity sufferred at the orcs' hands. They abused him and treated him like shit simply because they had this easy, comfortable target on which puke their frustrations over. And when you asked the reasons of this the answer was: "But he's an orc!"
He was a Soldier of the Horde during the first two Wars. A Horde that has acted like a bunch of bloodthirsty beasts. IF you act like a beast, you will be treated like a beast.
but aussaulting your own comrads, just because you like an war criminal is justice? So, you see if a friend of mine is a murderer and he helped me once, the good thing to do would be assaulting the police if they try to arrest him? That is what justice is for you?That has nothing to do with justice whatsoever.
Maybe Isilien was also a nice person, while he was with his friends? Does that change what he did, what he was? Eitrigg helped one human, but that doesn't change that he was a Soldier in a unprovoked war to conquer the humans lands, that he was a Soldier in this horrible Horde that let races and nations that never did something against his people before suffer. He was a war criminal, a member of a criminal and evil organisation. That Saurfang and the rest of the Orcs didn't got axed was graciousness. It was, because the Alliance didn't wanted to commit a genocide, not because the Orcs didn't deserved to die for their crimes. They did. This isn'T supposed to be a Godwin, but did the fact that many Criminals who worked for the Nazi-Government or the Wehrmacht were pardoned because the allies didn't wanted to destroy all of germany the sentences about those who were condemned wrong or an act of injustice?If anything we, the readers, had abundant evidence that Eitrigg was quite a great person on his own, who simply performed his duty and didn't think twice about abandon his people and live an existence of solidute the moment it became evident the Horde was hopelessly corrupted. How many orcs did the same? Besides the Frostwolves, none. Why he deserved death above everyone else? Did Saurfang got axed? No, he was thrown into a camp, and we know he indeed committed horrible acts in the past, he admitted that himself. Eitrigg never shown to bear the same burden. So yeah, where's the justice in that? Why, of all orcs, Eitrigg specifically didn't deserve a second chance?
He safed one human. That didn't change the fact that he was a soldier of the demon corrupted Horde. It isn't Tirions duty to decide if this cleansed Eitrigg from all of his crimes.He saved Tirion's life when he had absolutely zero obligations to do so. Hell, he had all the convenience of simply let him die. But he still saved him because Eitrigg was a warrior who valued honor and respected Tirion for being an equally honorable warrior, action that would have blatantly risked the secrecy of his position if Tirion would have simply ran to inform his kingdom of the orc's presence in his lands. And Eitrigg had no guarantee whatsoever that Tirion wouldn't have simply did that.
It was selfless and self-righteous at the same time. He attacked members of the Alliance to save a Horde-Veteran of the first two wars, a war criminal, a former member of a demon corrupted, criminal organisation. That was like saying his life is worth more than every human, dwarf or elf Eitrigg ever killed. He took Justice into his own hands. And that is wrong. If every Paladin would do that, than there would be nothing but chaos and vigilance. And he made himself a bad example for everyone. A Paladin is a idol for the commong people. What Tirion did was a statement, that he stands above the Law.It was a blatant act of selflessness based on his own beliefs and the number of Humans who would have had the balls to do the same wouldn't fit in the fingers of one hand. No shit Tirion felt a genuine sense of obligation to return the favor with a likewise selfless act, no matter how biased and blindfolded the rest of humanity was at the time. Doing otherwise would have been nothing but a mere act of convenience, betraying Eitrigg's trust just to maintain his reputation, status and wealth, let alone his family, thing that would have come so damn easy to Tirion considered the respect he held and how he could have been pardoned of everything by simply saying "nah, fuck that orc, he's a beast, treat him as such, just pardon me and let's forget this shit", that's the exact thing any average individual would have done. But he chose the hard way and all he obtained just to do what he deemed right is banishment into the wilderness. He fell from the highest amount of power, wealth and respect one could dream to live like an hermit. Go figure.
No, he didn't had enough personal experience and understanding of Eitrigg. He just saw one good act of Eitrigg. Just one fine move. That made him ignore everything else. It would have been okay if Tirion had tried to defend Eitrigg in a legal way, trying to convince his judges that this Orc has maybe changed, that he has Honor, but took the Law into his own hands, made him those who decides who is guilty and who not and that as a servant of a Nation and a King, bound by oath.Doing what Tirion did is the textbook definition of what a real Paladin would do, endure personal sacrifice to oppose an injustice. And he had enough personal experience and understanding of Eitrigg as a person to firmly believe that kill him like a beast was one.
No, I just have a different Oppinion. I think that a true Paladin should be a servant of Law and Order. If a Law is wrong or injust, he should try to change it with all of his power. What I believe is that taking Law and Justice into his own Hands is the worst thing a Paladin could do. It leads to Chaos. It leads to a state were a Paladin can pardon even the worst Criminal, just because he likes him or ows him a favor or, as the other extreme, executes cruel Vengeance, just because he hates someone. My opinion is that putting oneself above law is just wrong, thats why I don't like Tirion. I could like him as a Priest or a simple lightwielding Warrior wo doesn't calls himself a Paladin, but I can't accept him as the perfect example for a Paladin. Because I think a Paladin should the Lawful Good, A servant of Law and legitimate autorities, even if there is a Law that he doesn't likes. I liked him back in Classic, but I can't like him as the Paladin Poster Boy.What you did to deem this a whismical act based on his liking for an orc (forgetting Tirion was as much biased towards orcs as every other human before meeting Eitrigg) is one the most unbearable spinning attempts I ever read. It's not that the novel suggests you to like him, is that you barely read the novel to begin with, you read a completely different one playing in your head.
Also, I think that Tirion killing Isilien was a mere act of Vengeance in this moment, and it's not like Taelan was a good Person. He was a monster:
Highlord Taelan Fordring says: Remove your disguise, lest you feel the bite of my blade when the fury has taken control.
Last edited by mmocfbbaf337eb; 2016-04-21 at 04:52 PM.