Arms Legion Discussion

[cFortyfive]

To be honest, I took those talents to test them because I presumed they would tune the warrior so that a more complex rotation would yield better damage. I thought that was the hole point with the warr this expansion, that you could over simplify the rotation if you wanted or you could go for a harder but more rewarding one. I see from your posts that this is not what it has turned out to be, which is a bit disappointing =/. But I guess this can change with further tuning.

Well while I certainly don't disagree that the more complex rotation should be the most rewarding I am not really sure if that would be great design at the stage we are in this game.

Without talents, does Arms seriously only have MS, Slam, and CS for single-target damage? Three fucking buttons?

outside of execute ? yep

[Warriorsarri]

Btw, just wanted to mention, it's currently (with current tuning) to use OP and BS for single target, so you get two more buttons to press!

[Bigbazz]

Arms is not that hard to fix and actually be good, only having CS, MS, Slam, Execute for ST and Cleave + WW for multi target is not an issue since you have Overpower + Rend talents which could be great with tuning, especially if the spes wasn't so damn RNG and if they replaced/changed Trauma/Focussed rage. I don't know why they thought Focused Rage was a good idea on a spec that revolves around stacking lots of different damage buffs into a short window, it's a boring non-ability that allows you to prepare a nuclear bomb MS, we already saw what happened in MOP with the original Taste For Blood in PVP, bad design.

Trauma just reinforces the fact that you want to spam slam by making it do 20% more damage as a DOT, I'm not sure if that stacking dot of 20% more damage becomes more than 20% more damage due to buffs that occur after the fact, or if it's just a flat 20% unaffected by further buffs. If trauma didn't exist though it would make Overpower more attractive, because OP does proc nicely and sort of fits a current Sudden Death gameplay, when you have good RNG on resets OP is a definite damage increase and hits harder on average than a MS (Without Shattered Defense) due to having 60% increased crit chance.

The ugliest thing is playing Anger Management (which is strong due to Battle Cry + Corruped Blood synergy) and then see it go to waste because you can't get CS off cooldown. I don't know why they dont just make CS a 24 second cooldown so that Titanic Might is 100% uptime on single target, while it would also provide RNG protection for the standard more powerful CS.

[Artunias]

Btw, just wanted to mention, it's currently (with current tuning) to use OP and BS for single target, so you get two more buttons to press!

Is that including an execute phase? I find playing without Dauntless I rage starve even above 20% anytime I have to slam for extended periods of time, and then of course in execute phase without Dauntless in addition to not having In for the Kill with Bladestorm instead just grinds the entire execute phase to a massive halt.

[Secondwind]

I'm curious where the idea that Slam Spam will be devalued with more gear comes from. I've seen it posted a few times here an elsewhere, and just don't get it. Slam scales just as much with gear as anything else, if not better (since it provides extra CS uptime, and thus much more benefit from mastery); and Slam's raw damage per rage with Trauma just stomps everything except maybe OP.

Anyway my complaints today are, surprise surprise, the same as they were 4 months ago. The rotation is still dead boring without talents, and talents do little to spice it up. Overpower is a pale shadow of itself with little gameplay beyond "RNG Proc. Trauma somehow makes the rotation even more boring, and takes all of the interest out of other talents like Mortal Combo.

I still don't think it's unsalvageable, but -something- needs to be done. Honestly the core rotation is mostly fine. Just reduce CS base cooldown to 20-30s and it's pretty much okay. The main things that need fixed are making the talents actually mix up our rotation. Talented abilities as a whole need to have the CS reset chance even if they don't get the MS reset chance. OP needs some sort of gameplay beyond just "random proc", we already have a purely random proc in the form of MS resets. Trauma needs to not make Slam outpace everything... which pretty much means having trauma apply to something other than Slam.

Ideally you have three different categories of talents, with at least 2 talents available for each: 1) Mix up the outside-of-CS rotation 2) Mix up the inside-of-CS rotation 3) Damage boost that doesn't affect the rotation.

[Artunias]

I'm curious where the idea that Slam Spam will be devalued with more gear comes from. I've seen it posted a few times here an elsewhere, and just don't get it. Slam scales just as much with gear as anything else, if not better (since it provides extra CS uptime, and thus much more benefit from mastery); and Slam's raw damage per rage with Trauma just stomps everything except maybe OP.

Since I've said something similar quite often, I just want to clarify what I said.

My point has been anything that's NOT slam spam will be devalued by higher mastery. As you get more and more mastery anything that doesn't increase CS uptime will be devalued.

Maybe someone else has been saying other things, but just to be clear!

[Archimtiros]

While fury has a few frustrations, it's typically enjoyable to play IMO. Arms is just complete trash right now.

I'd much rather play Arms than Fury right now.

Fury may be a bit more dynamic, but it's infinitely more frustrating. Arms has one check, CS resets or it doesn't, and if it doesn't you simply press Slam again. Repetition might be boring, but it's far better for long term raiding than constantly correcting your rotation based on random events not happening.

Not to mention how much simpler Arms AoE and Execute phases are. Fury's lack of synergy in those aspects are down right cancerous.

[Bigbazz]

To those not on the alpha and not able to follow the discussion I made a video earlier discussing the spec, explaining the talents and traits, synergy. The good the bad etc. I do waffle on a bit I must admit and it's not 100% on point, it's surprisingly hard to do on video, your brain is thinking one thing and something else is coming out of your mouth and you only notice it when you listen back later.



With that said I think it should give you a general view, it's sure a lot easier to put your thoughts more accurately and on point in a forum post though, because every derp is just one edit away.. But at the same time I think this gives a better viewpoint to those without Alpha access, which is the entire point and target audience.

[Artunias]

I'd much rather play Arms than Fury right now.

Fury may be a bit more dynamic, but it's infinitely more frustrating. Arms has one check, CS resets or it doesn't, and if it doesn't you simply press Slam again. Repetition might be boring, but it's far better for long term raiding than constantly correcting your rotation based on random events not happening.

Not to mention how much simpler Arms AoE and Execute phases are. Fury's lack of synergy in those aspects are down right cancerous.

Interesting perspective. The frustrations with fury are real, but the RNG in the strength of the colossus smash proc being 80-100% damage increase even in pretty entry level gear seems like it would be larger inconsistency than dealing with Fury. Two notes regarding fury.

1. I think it starts to make a massive difference with the new secondary system as you acquire some real entry level gear at max level. 810-825 ilvl stuff with the right stats. Also high levels of haste make the spec feel way better with the reduced gcd, I hope it works out performance wise.

2. With the current functionality of Berserker Rage granting the mastery damage bonus (maybe bug, maybe not) it makes Bladestorm a lot less frustrating. Though when you try to factor in Dragon Roar I'll agree that's a clusterf*ck.

[Archimtiros]

Interesting perspective. The frustrations with fury are real, but the RNG in the strength of the colossus smash proc being 80-100% damage increase even in pretty entry level gear seems like it would be larger inconsistency than dealing with Fury. Two notes regarding fury.

1. I think it starts to make a massive difference with the new secondary system as you acquire some real entry level gear at max level. 810-825 ilvl stuff with the right stats. Also high levels of haste make the spec feel way better with the reduced gcd, I hope it works out performance wise.

2. With the current functionality of Berserker Rage granting the mastery damage bonus (maybe bug, maybe not) it makes Bladestorm a lot less frustrating. Though when you try to factor in Dragon Roar I'll agree that's a clusterf*ck.

The RNG of CS reset really isn't as bad in sustained combat as it's being made out to be, especially when artifact traits and later set bonuses are taken into account. It's bad for short fights, such as when you're questing or doing dungeons, due to frequently moving from mob to mob without enough time to reset your abilities, but that's hardly indicative of a 3-5m boss encounter.

Regarding Fury, I wasn't even talking about Bladestorm or DR; the basic multitarget rotation alone is incredibly flawed. Spending rage to Whirlwind takes rage away from Rampage, which lowers your Enrage uptime, which takes rage away from Whirlwind and Rampage. Bloodthirst not having crit puts reliance on Frenzy, which you don't want to use because you want to be using Whirlwind for more multi-target damage. The only good thing to come out of it is the essential requirement (which in of itself is something of a problem) to use Wrecking Ball minimizes this problem.

Similar case in Execute; Bloodthirst isn't a reliable trigger for Enrage without Frenzy, which means you waste GCD's on it. Execute competes with Rampage for rage, and does more damage, but doesn't trigger Enrage. The whole thing is a cluster fuck of mismatched priorities, which require you to constantly over analyze your place in the rotation. Might be fun to play for awhile, but it gets old real quick when raiding 20+ hours a week. Again, the only saving grace here is that Massacre minimizes the problem, but it does so in a bad way: by forcing you to use the talent.

- - - Updated - - -

I do waffle on a bit I must admit and it's not 100% on point...

For an hour!?

[Bigbazz]

The last 20minutes are me failing to solo a boss as Arms and then doing it as Fury because bloodthirst healing + a bit more waffling on. With all the talents, the artifact stuff, gameplay tactics/styles, issues etc, It's a lot to go through especially when you're used to looking at numbers and typing out posts rather than trying to speak to a microphone while playing a game!

It can be summarised as

Strong burst talk
Spam Slam whining
RNG whining
No self healing (9% of MS damage)
Defensive stance 6 second cooldown issues
Focused rage - dont like + PVP burst mastery/issues
Trauma - Spam slam = realisation that I dont like
Gamplay at 29mins
Wipe on Durumu 25m x2
Respec Fury, don't wipe on Durumu.
More waffling

For anyone who didn't feel like watching, now you don't have to. But it wasn't made for you Archi, I made it after getting annoyed at some dude in EU forums saying he was cancelling Legion Pre-order based on what was a load of fictional stuff he had imagined in his mind about Arms in Legion.

[PacketJ]

To those not on the alpha and not able to follow the discussion I made a video earlier discussing the spec, explaining the talents and traits, synergy. The good the bad etc. I do waffle on a bit I must admit and it's not 100% on point, it's surprisingly hard to do on video, your brain is thinking one thing and something else is coming out of your mouth and you only notice it when you listen back later.



With that said I think it should give you a general view, it's sure a lot easier to put your thoughts more accurately and on point in a forum post though, because every derp is just one edit away.. But at the same time I think this gives a better viewpoint to those without Alpha access, which is the entire point and target audience.

Thank you!

[Beregron1]

Thanks Bazz.

I've not found a lot of vids in relation to arms beyond game play / questing. I enjoyed the viewing

[Celarent]

Nice video. Especially enjoyed the reflection at 22:00ish on which iteration you preferred, and why.

[Breccia]

The Devs have now officially spent more effort into explaining the nerfs to the battle pet Graves than they have explaining a damn thing about Arms warriors.

[Ferozan]

After playing a little bit with Arms yesterday, i must say that Tactician should be a buff like Enhanced Pyrotechnics from Fire Mages
Enhanced Pyrotechnics

Casting Slam/Cleave/Whirlwind/Execute/Overpower would increase Mortal Strike chance to reset CS by X%.
Every Slam/Overpower cast would add +5%
Every Execute cast would add +5%~20% based on rage spent
Every Cleave/Whirlwind would add +3% per target

Maybe add some crit synergy to it, increasing % if the skill crits.

Tactician would also only reset CS, since Mortal Strike could use a base chance to reset it (20~30%)
Nerf CS duration to compensate or Nerf the chances to reset.

The problem with this is that it looks a bit like Furious Slash mechanic (which is dumb, we all know that) for Fury.
However, Slap Spam should not exist at all.

[Artunias]

The Devs have now officially spent more effort into explaining the nerfs to the battle pet Graves than they have explaining a damn thing about Arms warriors.

#feelsbadman

[Deleted]

I think we've been asking for Enhanced Pyrotechnics for... 4 years maybe? I remember someone mentioning it during my 2 years of lurking that's for sure.

[Murlocbait]

I still think the most elegant solution I've seen is for the CS reset to be tied percentage-wise based on rage spent, so every rage spending ability has a chance to reset it. That fits the theme of warriors, particularly Arms (the single-sentence description of the Arms fantasy on Blizz site is "Arms warriors are patient in a fight, waiting to capitalize on moments when an opponent is left exposed." so the idea of each attack having a chance to create that moment of exposure really fits what Blizz tells us they want) and keeps the rotation and Talents all functional. Such a simple solution, yet Blizz's silence means we have no idea if they have read it, considered it, whatever.

[mateusdowow]

The last 20minutes are me failing to solo a boss as Arms and then doing it as Fury because bloodthirst healing + a bit more waffling on. With all the talents, the artifact stuff, gameplay tactics/styles, issues etc, It's a lot to go through especially when you're used to looking at numbers and typing out posts rather than trying to speak to a microphone while playing a game!

It can be summarised as

Strong burst talk
Spam Slam whining
RNG whining
No self healing (9% of MS damage)
Defensive stance 6 second cooldown issues
Focused rage - dont like + PVP burst mastery/issues
Trauma - Spam slam = realisation that I dont like
Gamplay at 29mins
Wipe on Durumu 25m x2
Respec Fury, don't wipe on Durumu.
More waffling

For anyone who didn't feel like watching, now you don't have to. But it wasn't made for you Archi, I made it after getting annoyed at some dude in EU forums saying he was cancelling Legion Pre-order based on what was a load of fictional stuff he had imagined in his mind about Arms in Legion.

Thank you so much for that video bro!