[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[threads]

That tidbit was buried in the umpteen bazillion page patch notes.

That being said, there's often a form of TL;DR of any major patch note release on Reddit the day of said patch release.

If it makes you feel better, I've known how to get the 230 lore weapon since 3.2 release yet haven't even tried to get it.

i got my 7 gears then spent all my lore cause the relic is better lol.

[Granyala]

That tidbit was buried in the umpteen bazillion page patch notes.

Yeah, sucks a little.
Oh well they will probably remove the weekly ID from alex in the next patch anyway.

My Dork will have to make do with the 210 weapon till then.

[Kazgrel]

i got my 7 gears then spent all my lore cause the relic is better lol.

I main BLM, so I should've went for the lore weapon, but figure that at some point the relic will have customizable stats a la the ARR relic weapons.

Even in the event the anima weapon doesn't do that (which would be a surprise to me), it'll still be an ilvl increase over time, and weapon damage trumps all for dps.

[SodiumChloride]

/shrug

15 minutes once a week if you're only after the weapon is all the fight takes if it goes smoothly. Some probably run it for the tokens for gear too. A lot of players gear multiple classes, after all. I don't see how the fight's design is to maximize subscription rate.

My point exact. With like ~10+ mechanics, even if they are recycle from previous bosses, I don't see why the causal player is going to bother remembering them all when all he/she is aiming for is just 7 clears for the Midas gears.

It wouldn't be so bad if they tied it to one of the simpler early bosses that have like 3 clearly identifiable moves and can be explained in a short paragraph.

While this won't break the game, it isn't helping it either. When Burden of the Son does fail, all the salt will flood and people will have a bad time.

PS: IMHO, the "proper reaction" to any PUG boss mechanic needs to be obvious. Players should not be failing mechanics because they don't know what to do.

[Lathais]

My point exact. With like ~10+ mechanics, even if they are recycle from previous bosses, I don't see why the causal player is going to bother remembering them all when all he/she is aiming for is just 7 clears for the Midas gears.

It wouldn't be so bad if they tied it to one of the simpler early bosses that have like 3 clearly identifiable moves and can be explained in a short paragraph.

While this won't break the game, it isn't helping it either. When Burden of the Son does fail, all the salt will flood and people will have a bad time.

PS: IMHO, the "proper reaction" to any PUG boss mechanic needs to be obvious. Players should not be failing mechanics because they don't know what to do.

So you don't think that the further along in progression you are the more difficult it should be? You think that the 8th boss should be just as easy "one of the simpler early bosses that have like 3 clearly identifiable moves and can be explained in a short paragraph"? That makes no sense whatsoever.

IMHO, those mechanics are pretty obvious. You see the rest of the group stacking up, you stack up with them. You see everyone else on your screen start to scatter, scatter. It's pretty simple and obvious stuff. Most boss fights in the game so far I can go in to blind and do better than most others. The exception to that rule is there is something that goes on a specific player and then you have to do something specific and I am the first one it happens too. I'll get the buff/debuff on me and not know whether I am supposed to stand still, move to others or move away from others. However, if I see someone else doing something odd during a fight, I look at that person, figure out why, then I know what to do when it happens to me. It's not exactly rocket science here, do what the rest of the group does.

I also find you "even if they are recycled from other bosses" comment pretty funny. I mean, I've been playing MMOs since Everquest. Every once in a while there will be a new semi-unique mechanic, but really, after a while, it's all just the same mechanics repeated over and over and over in different games. Bosses here feel just like certain bosses in Rift or in WoW or in SWtOR. Bosses in those games can feel like bosses here. It's all the same old mechanics, just with a little different flavor on them, or a different consequence for not doing what you are supposed to. Do X or Y happens, repeated ad nauseum.

[SodiumChloride]

So you don't think that the further along in progression you are the more difficult it should be? You think that the 8th boss should be just as easy "one of the simpler early bosses that have like 3 clearly identifiable moves and can be explained in a short paragraph"? That makes no sense whatsoever.

IMHO, those mechanics are pretty obvious. You see the rest of the group stacking up, you stack up with them. You see everyone else on your screen start to scatter, scatter. It's pretty simple and obvious stuff. Most boss fights in the game so far I can go in to blind and do better than most others. The exception to that rule is there is something that goes on a specific player and then you have to do something specific and I am the first one it happens too. I'll get the buff/debuff on me and not know whether I am supposed to stand still, move to others or move away from others. However, if I see someone else doing something odd during a fight, I look at that person, figure out why, then I know what to do when it happens to me. It's not exactly rocket science here, do what the rest of the group does.

I also find you "even if they are recycled from other bosses" comment pretty funny. I mean, I've been playing MMOs since Everquest. Every once in a while there will be a new semi-unique mechanic, but really, after a while, it's all just the same mechanics repeated over and over and over in different games. Bosses here feel just like certain bosses in Rift or in WoW or in SWtOR. Bosses in those games can feel like bosses here. It's all the same old mechanics, just with a little different flavor on them, or a different consequence for not doing what you are supposed to. Do X or Y happens, repeated ad nauseum.

This is the causal player we are talking about here. They don't devote their lives to the game, ergo, they don't study for it.

If you are going to throw mechanics at them, you better be sure they have already learned it "along the way" - and no, bumbling though the early parts of Alex with no idea what is going on doesn't teach them the "recycled mechanics"; I mean I have done the 4 robot bosses a few times trying to get a bolt or something, can't remember, and I still don't remember what their mechanics are. LOL

[Lathais]

This is the causal player we are talking about here. They don't devote their lives to the game, ergo, they don't study for it.

If you are going to throw mechanics at them, you better be sure they have already learned it "along the way" - and no, bumbling though the early parts of Alex with no idea what is going on doesn't teach them the "recycled mechanics"; I mean I have done the 4 robot bosses a few times trying to get a bolt or something, can't remember, and I still don't remember what their mechanics are. LOL

I like the way you completely ignored the question, again, as you always do. I'll try again:

Do you think that as you get further into progression the fights should not get more difficult? They should stay the same difficulty all the way through? Because that's exactly what it sounds like you are saying. That the 8th boss should just be a carbon copy of one of the earlier bosses. You sound like you are encouraging just repeating the exact same thing over again with a different reward.

[Faroth]

My point exact. With like ~10+ mechanics, even if they are recycle from previous bosses, I don't see why the causal player is going to bother remembering them all when all he/she is aiming for is just 7 clears for the Midas gears.

I'm confused. You said Square designs fights to maximize subscription rate. Period. Now you're saying they didn't do that?

It wouldn't be so bad if they tied it to one of the simpler early bosses that have like 3 clearly identifiable moves and can be explained in a short paragraph.

I just explained all of them in a single line each.... It took 4 lines... a paragraph.

PS: IMHO, the "proper reaction" to any PUG boss mechanic needs to be obvious. Players should not be failing mechanics because they don't know what to do.

So you are, in fact, saying if it's in Duty Finder it should be WoW LFR levels of brain dead? I don't think this game's designed for what you frequently seem to be looking for.

This is the causal player we are talking about here. They don't devote their lives to the game, ergo, they don't study for it.

If you are going to throw mechanics at them, you better be sure they have already learned it "along the way" - and no, bumbling though the early parts of Alex with no idea what is going on doesn't teach them the "recycled mechanics"; I mean I have done the 4 robot bosses a few times trying to get a bolt or something, can't remember, and I still don't remember what their mechanics are. LOL

Seriously, your entire argument comes across as suggesting no dangerous mechanics, no risk of wipe nor possibility of failure, even if you go in blind.

If reusing mechanics from the fights you did in order to unlock this one isn't teaching mechanics, I don't know what you could be asking for. They've even put in the training grounds. They can't hand hold the player and have them get loot for just entering the dungeon. O_o

[threads]

This is the causal player we are talking about here. They don't devote their lives to the game, ergo, they don't study for it.

If you are going to throw mechanics at them, you better be sure they have already learned it "along the way" - and no, bumbling though the early parts of Alex with no idea what is going on doesn't teach them the "recycled mechanics"; I mean I have done the 4 robot bosses a few times trying to get a bolt or something, can't remember, and I still don't remember what their mechanics are. LOL

you can't access the last boss unless you do the 3 prior. it's designed with that in mind. if people don't bother to pay attention at all during that period then that's their own fault.

[SodiumChloride]

I like the way you completely ignored the question, again, as you always do. I'll try again:

Do you think that as you get further into progression the fights should not get more difficult? They should stay the same difficulty all the way through? Because that's exactly what it sounds like you are saying. That the 8th boss should just be a carbon copy of one of the earlier bosses. You sound like you are encouraging just repeating the exact same thing over again with a different reward.

Bosses have to be different to keep things interesting. As for difficulty ... it's best to keep a consistent level.

But that's irrelevant to my point, I talking causal players. It's not about difficulty in execution but actually knowing what to do.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm confused. You said Square designs fights to maximize subscription rate. Period. Now you're saying they didn't do that?

They make mistakes. In this case, not a huge one. Still if they get complains, and I'm sure someone already has, they will avoid the same mistake in the future.

I just explained all of them in a single line each.... It took 4 lines... a paragraph.

What is phrase 2? How do I know if phrase 2 has started? ... etc.

You have to break it down to noob levels, e.g. If you see X, do Y.

All of the "if X then Y" has to fit a paragraph.

So you are, in fact, saying if it's in Duty Finder it should be WoW LFR levels of brain dead? I don't think this game's designed for what you frequently seem to be looking for.

We already have content at LFR level of braindead. It's called Void Ark.

It's made like that for a reason. Burden of knowledge and execution difficulty has to be kept reasonably low else it will just result in much rage quits.

Seriously, your entire argument comes across as suggesting no dangerous mechanics, no risk of wipe nor possibility of failure, even if you go in blind.

If reusing mechanics from the fights you did in order to unlock this one isn't teaching mechanics, I don't know what you could be asking for. They've even put in the training grounds. They can't hand hold the player and have them get loot for just entering the dungeon. O_o

OK now you putting words in my mouth.

All I'm saying is the last boss has too many mechanics for a causal player who doesn't put in much effort to remember. Burden of Knowledge is a problem.

- - - Updated - - -

you can't access the last boss unless you do the 3 prior. it's designed with that in mind. if people don't bother to pay attention at all during that period then that's their own fault.

If you are willing to accept that those players will be perceptually carried ... OK.

[Lathais]

Bosses have to be different to keep things interesting. As for difficulty ... it's best to keep a consistent level.

But that's irrelevant to my point, I talking causal players. It's not about difficulty in execution but actually knowing what to do.

Fist of all, that's absurd. Just about any game I can think of, each level is harder than the previous. You start off with tutorials and then things get progressively harder.

They make mistakes. In this case, not a huge one. Still if they get complains, and I'm sure someone already has, they will avoid the same mistake in the future.

People were complaining about the same thing back in Coil weren't they? I remember hearing lots of complaints about the difficulty of the later stages.

What is phrase 2? How do I know if phrase 2 has started? ... etc.

You have to break it down to noob levels, e.g. If you see X, do Y.

All of the "if X then Y" has to fit a paragraph.

Phase(not phrase) changes are normally pretty easy to notice. Either a stance change, he'll move, he'll charge up an ability, something. Long and short, if you know that there is an ability he will do in phase 2 and he does it, you know it's in phase 2, not really that hard.

We already have content at LFR level of braindead. It's called Void Ark.

It's made like that for a reason. Burden of knowledge and execution difficulty has to be kept reasonably low else it will just result in much rage quits.

Yeah, we already have it, it's called Void Ark, so why does A8 need to be like that as well? It's a different style of content for a different style of player. Why make A8 like Void Ark if you already have Void Ark?

OK now you putting words in my mouth.

All I'm saying is the last boss has too many mechanics for a causal player who doesn't put in much effort to remember. Burden of Knowledge is a problem.

No one put words in your mouth, it's what you literally said. Perhaps it's not what you meant, but what you said could easily be taken that way. I know that's pretty much the same thing I took from it. If you would care to elaborate, maybe we could understand you better, but you keep contradicting yourself too, so it's very difficult to understand the points you are trying to get across.

[SodiumChloride]

Fist of all, that's absurd. Just about any game I can think of, each level is harder than the previous. You start off with tutorials and then things get progressively harder.

LOL. If things get progressively harder by the 3rd expansion everyone but an elite few would have raged quit when the bosses hit Dark Souls level of difficult.

Phase(not phrase) changes are normally pretty easy to notice. Either a stance change, he'll move, he'll charge up an ability, something. Long and short, if you know that there is an ability he will do in phase 2 and he does it, you know it's in phase 2, not really that hard.

I'm talking about explain it to a noob. You can't use vague terms like "phase" and expect them to know what you mean. You have to give a concrete description.

Yeah, we already have it, it's called Void Ark, so why does A8 need to be like that as well? It's a different style of content for a different style of player. Why make A8 like Void Ark if you already have Void Ark?

The problem is ... this is Duty Finder ...

[Kaelwryn]

Bear in mind that all these complaints about "mechanics" come from the guy who was complaining about "not enough mechanics" in other fights or "streamlining" in the game overall. :|

Pretty much my reaction to this talk is "U wot?" A8N is NOT that hard, and honestly I think Sephirot HM has more shit to remember than A8. I also think less people are going to remember what to do with Sephirot because they're a one and one type with HM. Funny aside, I got Seph. in my trials roulette, and one of the tanks is like "fuuck, I don't remember this place." Another person was like "what? its been out for barely a month" to which I replied "one and done" and several other people agreed with my statement. We bumbled our way through it and the guy who had said it had been out barely a month got upset with the rest of us. "None of you did any mechanics, you just stood there. Next time be considerate of others and do mechanics." I was like "err what? We killed him even if we all fubar'd the mechanics." Not to mention most of us had been like 'yeah we forgot everything...'

Anyway! I think its pretty silly to say A8 has -too- many mechanics for people do remember. Even if you don't remember everything, you'll probably remember most things, and can get away with screwing a few things up. Unless -everyone- is screwing mechanics up and causing y'all to get tons of damage, then one person forgetting about the Apocalyptic beam or the jump or when everyone needs to group for the mini robot bosses is perfectly a ok. And as I said, most group I've been in haven't been awful (I say this as someone runs a wing until I've gotten a loot drop so I DF a LOT). I've only had 1 group fall apart after the initial first week (the one I vented about.) and almost every group I've been in has been a 1-2 shot.

While I definitely do think that quite a few people in DF are idiots, I think you're being disingenuous to casual players. TBH I don't think you're even talking about casual players. Casual players, to me, are the people who can only play for a few hours (if that) a day or a week. They aren't the idiots who go "I play how I want, its my money." Those are morons, and I think there's a big difference between the two. Do these two groups overlap? Sure, of course. But I think its rude to call the "I play how I want" crowd "casuals."

[Remilia]

A8N is hard because you're paying too much attention to the awesome cheesy music.

[Kaelwryn]

Haha! True true. I always turn up the volume for that song. Just too good.

[Berethos08]

Not to mention most of us had been like 'yeah we forgot everything...'

There's like 4 things to remember that aren't obviously like move out of aoe and kill adds...and one of those has arrows pointing to where you need to go.

Stand behind when he does his big charge in small form. Stand apart when he does his chest glowing attack cause it does splash damage. Whoever has the mark on them move away from the group (like the majority of marks in the rest of the game). And the hop in the tornado thing when the arrows tell you to.

And once he hits his big stage, he does the exact same pattern every time through to the big arm swipe.

First time you see them, should be very obvious what you're supposed to do next time.

Yeah, you can bumble through it, but with so few mechanics not doing most of them is just lazy.

[Kaelwryn]

There's like 4 things to remember that aren't obviously like move out of aoe and kill adds...and one of those has arrows pointing to where you need to go.

Stand behind when he does his big charge in small form. Stand apart when he does his chest glowing attack cause it does splash damage. Whoever has the mark on them move away from the group (like the majority of marks in the rest of the game). And the hop in the tornado thing when the arrows tell you to.

And once he hits his big stage, he does the exact same pattern every time through to the big arm swipe.

First time you see them, should be very obvious what you're supposed to do next time.

Yeah, you can bumble through it, but with so few mechanics not doing most of them is just lazy.

Yah, I mean I picked up on most of the things I needed to remember the only one I completely blanked on was the splash attack one, where his chest apparently glows?!??!?!

I mean, the funny thing is that it was a BARD getting upset over it. If it had been a healer, I would've understood because ya we were taking stupid damage that we (ideally) should know better. Most of us did get our shit together in the end. That person was just being pissy IMO.

[SodiumChloride]

Pretty much my reaction to this talk is "U wot?" A8N is NOT that hard, and honestly I think Sephirot HM has more shit to remember than A8. I also think less people are going to remember what to do with Sephirot because they're a one and one type with HM. Funny aside, I got Seph. in my trials roulette, and one of the tanks is like "fuuck, I don't remember this place." Another person was like "what? its been out for barely a month" to which I replied "one and done" and several other people agreed with my statement. We bumbled our way through it and the guy who had said it had been out barely a month got upset with the rest of us. "None of you did any mechanics, you just stood there. Next time be considerate of others and do mechanics." I was like "err what? We killed him even if we all fubar'd the mechanics." Not to mention most of us had been like 'yeah we forgot everything...'

Anyway! I think its pretty silly to say A8 has -too- many mechanics for people do remember. Even if you don't remember everything, you'll probably remember most things, and can get away with screwing a few things up. Unless -everyone- is screwing mechanics up and causing y'all to get tons of damage, then one person forgetting about the Apocalyptic beam or the jump or when everyone needs to group for the mini robot bosses is perfectly a ok. And as I said, most group I've been in haven't been awful (I say this as someone runs a wing until I've gotten a loot drop so I DF a LOT). I've only had 1 group fall apart after the initial first week (the one I vented about.) and almost every group I've been in has been a 1-2 shot.

While I definitely do think that quite a few people in DF are idiots, I think you're being disingenuous to casual players. TBH I don't think you're even talking about casual players. Casual players, to me, are the people who can only play for a few hours (if that) a day or a week. They aren't the idiots who go "I play how I want, its my money." Those are morons, and I think there's a big difference between the two. Do these two groups overlap? Sure, of course. But I think its rude to call the "I play how I want" crowd "casuals."

Most of the time it's fine. 230 gear + carrying = fine most of the time ... until the number of players who don't know what they are doing and have shit gear reach a certain number ...

The question is why?

Why have so many (somewhat non-obvious) mechanics? (Granted you will be able to survive most of them with good gear.)

Instead of fewer, easy to recognize mechanics? (At which point you can actually punish the player for not following mechanics and it won't feel "unfair".)

There are 2 ways to make the fight easier,

A reasonable amount of recognizable mechanics where the player knows what to do at first glance or at least at 2nd glance.

OR

Few/many, doesn't really matter, mechanics that you can more or less ignore.

Which one is more interesting to the causal player?

Edit: You know what SE needs to do? They need to be consistent with their telegraphing.

They use the same orange flashing AOE telegraph for every type of AOE - e.g. the don't stand in fire AOE, the do stand in fire or the few that are in it will die AOE, ... etc. Sometimes they use some black circle or yellow circle ... what they mean vary from fight to fight.

They need to standardize the appearance of those telegraphs to reflect the type of AOE that's incoming. Teach it to the players with the another Novice Training Trials thing.

There recognisable mechanics.

[Lathais]

LOL. If things get progressively harder by the 3rd expansion everyone but an elite few would have raged quit when the bosses hit Dark Souls level of difficult.

An expansion is basically a reset on the difficulty of end-game though. That's typically how expansions work in MMOs.

I'm talking about explain it to a noob. You can't use vague terms like "phase" and expect them to know what you mean. You have to give a concrete description.

A newb(not noob as that's derogatory) by the time they are even able to run the raids will have had to complete the story dungeons and already been eased in to concepts like phases as they exist in previous required content.

The problem is ... this is Duty Finder ...

So you are saying that anything in Dut Finder needs to be lolWoWLFR /faceroll easy? Just because it's in Duty Finder doesn't mean it's not a different type of content. Trials are in DF as well, so are Dungeons. I don't see your point here.

[SodiumChloride]

An expansion is basically a reset on the difficulty of end-game though. That's typically how expansions work in MMOs.

Nope. Not really. Raids are tuned for a consistent clear rate. It's against the developer's interest to have raid groups fall apart as the expansion progresses.

A newb(not noob as that's derogatory) by the time they are even able to run the raids will have had to complete the story dungeons and already been eased in to concepts like phases as they exist in previous required content.

If that is so, there would not be so many fail groups. Mechanics in Void Ark need not be so toothless.

So you are saying that anything in Dut Finder needs to be lolWoWLFR /faceroll easy? Just because it's in Duty Finder doesn't mean it's not a different type of content. Trials are in DF as well, so are Dungeons. I don't see your point here.

You mean you have not noticed? That the new trials in HW aren't as brutal as ARR's primal fights? That even the old primal fights have been nerfed somewhat?

SE saw the failure rate, and more importantly the rage quit rate, knew it was unacceptable - especially for mandatory content.

Content that is unpleasant to do, that players actively avoid, remember the point of this game is to entertain, might as well not exist. A few wipes is fine (even a few dozen ... in a solo game) ... in a group game things can turn unpleasant pretty quickly in a PUG. e.g. The original Pharos Sirius.