Nerfs announced

[Mormolyce]

A few posts in here about the Blade Flurry change make no sense. 1) It's still a board clear. Removing face damage doesn't suddenly mean it won't kill minions. 2) Rogues have weapons other than their hero power. The fact you all think Blade Flurry can only be used with your Hero Power and Poisons is a good reason why this was changed. They couldn't design other weapons for Rogues without worrying Blade Flurry would make it overpowered. 3) Go look up a card called Shadowflame. And you want the same thing but for 2 less mana?

I mean shit, Oil made Blade Flurry batshit insane.

[Nikkaszal]

Ancient of Lore - terrible, pointless change to a fair card that makes it bad just to lower the power level of the class.
force of nature - needed to get changed.
keeper of the grove - same as ancient of lore except more justifiable
ironbeak owl - sucks really bad now and should just be a totally different card instead of a super shitty one
bgh - still playable, not sure why it wasn't made a totally different card
hunter's mark - pointless
blade flurry - awful idea to nerf it, extreme overkill on how shitty it is now. guts rogue as a class.
knife juggler - worse but playable
leper gnome - it sucks now
arcane golem - unnecessary
molten giant - fine
master of disguise - laughable

Big props to not nerfing Innervate even though it's dead fucking obvious that fast mana is a degenerate problem in design.

MoD change isnt "laughable", it's something that had to be done. There are several cards being released this expac that would be broken as all hell if allowed perma-stealth from MoD

[Mahourai]

MoD change isnt "laughable", it's something that had to be done. There are several cards being released this expac that would be broken as all hell if allowed perma-stealth from MoD

There aren't any and there have never been any.

EDIT:

Including Animated Armor. If I'm wrong it would have been better just to print it and then nerf it later if needed.

[Nikkaszal]

There aren't any and there have never been any.

EDIT:

Including Animated Armor. If I'm wrong it would have been better just to print it and then nerf it later if needed.

Orly?

http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/33152-scaled-nightmare - exponential growth, esp when throwing CB's into the mix, almost impossible to remove from stealth until it oneshots you

http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/31112-twilight-elder - infinite C'thun growth

Why the hell would you include Animated Armor? That's a Mage minion

[Mahourai]

Why the hell would you include Animated Armor? That's a Mage minion

because it was originally a neutral minion except for their concerns about master of disguise. funny you're lecturing me about the reason it was nerfed when you don't know that though.

Animated Armor was originally a neutral card, but according to Ben Brode, "it is NO FUN with Master of Disguise."[6]

Master of Disguise + Scaled Nightmare is a 10-mana two-card combo that doesn't win the game for 4 more turns. It's not degenerate at all. It would be a fucking miracle if you killed anyone doing that. Same for doing an 8-mana 2-card combo that 10 turns later lets you play a bomby C'thun. Those are shitty combos.

[Nikkaszal]

because it was originally a neutral minion except for their concerns about master of disguise. funny you're lecturing me about the reason it was nerfed when you don't know that though.



Master of Disguise + Scaled Nightmare is a 10-mana two-card combo that doesn't win the game for 4 more turns. It's not degenerate at all. It would be a fucking miracle if you killed anyone doing that. Same for doing an 8-mana 2-card combo that 10 turns later lets you play a bomby C'thun. Those are shitty combos.

Doesn't win the game for four more turns IF LEFT ALONE. Rogues get Cold Blood - a combo deck utilising this would be similar to Oil/Miracle in that they control the fuck out of you while drawing their entire deck for the finisher so it is not unreasonable at all to assume the rogue will have drawn both CBs by turn 11. That means a 12/8 in stealth by end of turn 11, 24/8 stealth at the start of turn 12.

As to your Animated Armor example - that is exactly the point. MoD interacts with cards in a way that limits design (just like how Dreadsteed was supposed to be neutral but Warsong Commander existed so it couldn't be neutral). Nerfing MoD opens the door for more card design that won't end up being broken if perma-stealthed.

As for the Cthun minion - play that on 3, MOD on 4. 3/4's on 3 are rarely able to be killed immediately. If worried, play it on 4 with Conceal and MoD on 5. Boom, growth for the whole midgame.

[Mormolyce]

blade flurry - awful idea to nerf it, extreme overkill on how shitty it is now. guts rogue as a class.

Stops Rogue being a one-trick pony thanks to an insane existing combo (OilFlurry) that would only get worse if they add more Rogue weapons/weapon enhancements.

Also there's a lot of speculation that the OG cards are going to make Rogue a big winner out of the new expansion.

[Eats Compost]

Blade Flurry nerf is great. It interacted with extremes in a way that just felt like nonsense to play against.

[Mormolyce]

MoD change isnt "laughable", it's something that had to be done. There are several cards being released this expac that would be broken as all hell if allowed perma-stealth from MoD

That's my assumption. Still hilarious to nerf a card nobody plays ever though :P

I actually never thought about the fact MoD is the only stealth-giver that is permanent before.

It's mostly irrelevant, but I would tend to disagree on this point. 4/4 is actually pretty significantly different than 4/3. 4/3 dies to quite a bit of direct removal that 4/4 doesn't, and it also trades with vanilla 2-drops.

It's part of why Succubus is bad. 4/3 is a really awkward set of stats.

I don't think a Succy would see any more play at 4/4, personally.

I mean yeah, it's a BIT better, but in practical situations it's almost always going to work out the same. Frostbolt virtually kills it anyway thanks to followup ping (even next turn ping). That extra 1 damage is very easy to get in most situations for other classes, at turn 3.

Difference between 4 health and 5 is huge, 3 to 4 is not so much. Only time it really matters is with say Flamewaker, where you absolutely must remove it immediately no matter what (because it might wipe all your ping off the board next turn even if it's frozen).

[Mahourai]

Stops Rogue being a one-trick pony thanks to an insane existing combo (OilFlurry) that would only get worse if they add more Rogue weapons/weapon enhancements.

Yeah, now it's a no-trick pony.

Also there's a lot of speculation that the OG cards are going to make Rogue a big winner out of the new expansion.

The design team thinks that Xaril the Poisoned Mind is an incredible bomb. It's just not gonna happen.

[Nikkaszal]

Yeah, now it's a no-trick pony.



The design team thinks that Xaril the Poisoned Mind is an incredible bomb. It's just not gonna happen.

Raptor Rogue, son.

Undercity Huckster, Twilight Summoner, Xaril and then N'Zoth to cap it off. Making up for the lack of Egg and Shredder.

It's here to stay.

[Mormolyce]

Yeah, now it's a no-trick pony.



The design team thinks that Xaril the Poisoned Mind is an incredible bomb. It's just not gonna happen.

We'll see I guess.

Rogue also has Mill :P

Might actually be a strong deck if the meta slows enough.

- - - Updated - - -

Raptor Rogue, son.

Undercity Huckster, Twilight Summoner, Xaril and then N'Zoth to cap it off. Making up for the lack of Egg and Shredder.

It's here to stay.

Speaking of glue decks, I'm secretly hoping Egg Druid will survive in some form... that new FoN might actually work okay for them, if enough rush decks die out.

[Mahourai]

Raptor Rogue, son.

Undercity Huckster, Twilight Summoner, Xaril and then N'Zoth to cap it off. Making up for the lack of Egg and Shredder.

It's here to stay.

Raptor Rogue already sucks and the version you're describing is worse than the one that currently exists.

[Nikkaszal]

Raptor Rogue already sucks and the version you're describing is worse than the one that currently exists.

lol okay

Meanwhile in the real world...

[Deleted]

As someone that died to a 28 damage burst from Arcane Golem another day when my opponent had an empty board I am a happy panda indeed with these changes. Just wished they had nerfed Knife Juggler even more (effect only procs from played minions instead of summoned) and the nerfs would have been almost perfect.

[Deleted]

The only thing that was broken and needed a nerf was FON SR. Losing from 20+ health and empty opponent board is dumb and should never happen. I'd rather have a card completely rekt than be rekt by the same stupid shit by every fucking druid on ladder.

I like that they didn't touched Savage Roar. Lots of free dust for us (since FoN is an epic and SR is a basic undustable card) AND savage roar remains a playable card. But at least now you have to set up the lethal on the board, not win from empty board.

I don't get BF nerf tho. Why so savage? They did Warsong Commander style nerf to a class that's already underrepresented in ladder. The only thing that made this card really strong was Oil combo, potentially creating large bursts of damage combined with a boardclear. The combo's needed a lot of cards tho, it's not like it was two-card 14dmg combo like druids.

BGH is still BGH. By the time big minions get played, players often float on unspent mana, so that 5-cost isn't really a big deal. Granted you can't BGH + play 7-cost minion now (without Emp at least) but BGH is still a fun killer.

[Kathranis]

Whoo 5000~7000 dust incoming, depending on how many copies of the epics I decide to disenchant.

Anyway... Ancient of Lore is probably going to get replaced with Azure Drake going forward, but the healing might make it valuable if we don't get a suitable Antique Healbot replacement.

Force of Nature is nerfed so the Force Savage combo is dead, which is good. I think the card is still fair and will probably still see some limited play in token decks, but I don't expect them to be very strong.

Keeper of the Grove and Ironbeak Owl will likely be replaced with Spellbreaker in most cases.

Big Game Hunter has been nerfed right to the precipice of unplayable. At 5 mana I think it'll still see some play as a tech card. If it had been 6 mana it would be dead.

Hunter's Mark is fine at 1 mana.

Blade Flurry is a huge nerf but the card was incredibly broken to begin with and frankly it's sort of amazing that it has existed this long without being changed; it's now comparable to Warlock's Shadowflame. It'll still see some use, probably as a one-of anti-aggro tech card. The good thing here is that it'll open up some design space so that rogue can have some stronger weapon-centric cards.

Knife Juggler will still see play as a 2/2, but this nerf makes it less likely to trade up with 3 and 4 drops, which pushes more into fair territory. To be honest they could probably have nerfed it even more and it would still see play.

Leper Gnome's nerf brings it in line with other 1 drops. A fair change, but reducing the deathrattle to 1 damage might have been more fair.

Arcane Golem is now unplayable, which I think is fine. It was obviously designed to be a big tempo play in the early game, but people really only used it for burst and lategame OTKs. I think making it a 4/5 would have been a more fair nerf, and still probably not that powerful since it ramps the opponent to 4 mana when played on curve.

Molten Giant, I'm not sure how this one will shake out. It brings it more in line with the other Giants (which is to say that you rarely get to play the other Giants for free), but mages are already losing Duplicate and Echo of Medivh so that archetype is all but dead. Renolock might still run it as a one-of, but Handlock will probably replace it, unless some really strong new healing card is introduced.

Master of Disguise change just frees up some design space by preventing possible abuse of the stealth mechanic.

Rogue also has Mill :P

I'm eager to try out some Shadowcaster + Brann + Gang Up shenanigans, including Mill with Coldlights.

[McNeil]

I think they should've also nerfed Divine Favor, I play quite some aggro pally myself and even I find it ridiculously OP. I've had games where my hand is empty while my opponent has like 8 cards, I topdeck Divine and draw enough of my charge minions and buffs to kill him anyway.

[Lotus Victoria]

Well, Savage Roar didn't get touched (IMO, it should only work with beasts, make it +3 attack, +4 attack, whatever), but at least FoN is out. Weee

[Faltemer]

Well, Savage Roar didn't get touched (IMO, it should only work with beasts, make it +3 attack, +4 attack, whatever), but at least FoN is out. Weee

I think they kept roar as is, because on it's own it could spawn a new deck type or if swarm/token druid ever truly works it will be a solid card. While Force without roar was just bad.