[Pre-Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Vanyali]

You could have Chaos Blades and Demonic before when they were not on the same tier and I think we were far from broken.

then they separated them and changed how things work.. for a pretty good reason, considering chaos blades makes annihilation double-dip from our mastery, and death sweep hit like fifteen trucks.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

then they separated them and changed how things work.. for a pretty good reason, considering chaos blades makes annihilation double-dip from our mastery, and death sweep hit like fifteen trucks.

Toy trucks or dump trucks?

I'll see myself out.

[Jekuto]

Toy trucks or dump trucks?

I'll see myself out.

Dump trucks on steroids.

[wordup]

I'd like to weigh in here that suggesting "X should be baseline" at this point isn't constructive feedback anymore. Yes, it's reasonable to state that there is an issue in gaps in gameplay/aspects of the core kit that are lacking, but stating the fix be "Well just make X baseline cos it feels good!" solves nothing. Demonic whilst it does fit as an artifact trait and something I originally said would be good, I can genuinely see so, so many headaches down the line for tuning on it if it's just there. The solution should be bringing the other talents in line, not just saying that it should be given for free.

[Deleted]

I agree with wordup. And tbh I think it's more about the tweaking of the other talents. For example "demon reborn". I think it's safe to say that demonic/meta is one very viable build. I just hope that we can add another build. May it be that one is for ST and one for heavy MT. I don't need like 3-4 ways to play ST. Same with most classes.
If I take for example hunter raider atm there is pretty much 1 viable raid spec. the well known cookie cutter builds every class has. And it's all flavour of taste if you like it or not. The theme fits, most of the abilities are done. period.

It would be nice to say "felblade needs to be baseline cause that would make the class complete" but you could start saying that about every talent. Let's make bladestorm baseline for warriors cause it's to good and blablabla.....

To me I would like to see at least 2 builds (with our class it's kinda weird saying I wan't a mt build cause we allready have a very good package ST and MT).

Little sidenote. They have to make us allround since we have only 1 dps spec. So hence I ask for a more oriented ST and MT build.

also is it just me or is alpha more world of meleecraft? I hardly see anything else then warriors/dh and dk's. Seldom a hunter or a lock and I even
haven't seen a mage for example

edit: Before I get shot down "you can also now play bm etc etc etc" I am still talking about the highest potential dps and not we can farm archi with 18 man...

[Warstar]

I'd like to weigh in here that suggesting "X should be baseline" at this point isn't constructive feedback anymore. Yes, it's reasonable to state that there is an issue in gaps in gameplay/aspects of the core kit that are lacking, but stating the fix be "Well just make X baseline cos it feels good!" solves nothing. Demonic whilst it does fit as an artifact trait and something I originally said would be good, I can genuinely see so, so many headaches down the line for tuning on it if it's just there. The solution should be bringing the other talents in line, not just saying that it should be given for free.

I think Wordup should be baseline. Please main a DH in Legion k?

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I think Wordup should be baseline. Please main a DH in Legion k?

Yo, i second this.

[AngryCoco]

All vote wordup for new Illidank!

[Manu9]

I think Wordup should be baseline. Please main a DH in Legion k?

We need him to main both classes, it's wordup, he'll figure out how, no worries!

[Baelroc]

I'd like to weigh in here that suggesting "X should be baseline" at this point isn't constructive feedback anymore. Yes, it's reasonable to state that there is an issue in gaps in gameplay/aspects of the core kit that are lacking, but stating the fix be "Well just make X baseline cos it feels good!" solves nothing. Demonic whilst it does fit as an artifact trait and something I originally said would be good, I can genuinely see so, so many headaches down the line for tuning on it if it's just there. The solution should be bringing the other talents in line, not just saying that it should be given for free.

I agree in that it most likely won't happen at this point, but this thread isn't really a directly constructive feedback avenue either. That would be for you guys on the alpha forums (that I sadly do not have access to :-( ), so I think just discussing the "what ifs" here is fine.

I just feel strongly that meta should have been more heavily tied into the class mechanic, instead of just a hefty 5 minute (without artifact) "do more damage" CD. Demonic being baseline or as a part of the artifact would definitely help accomplish that goal. I guess just personally, the Demonic playstyle is how I always envisioned the class fantasy of a Demon Hunter.

That being said, Chaos Blades already seems decent, and we don't really know what Fel Barrage is going to look like from a DPS standpoint. I absolutely agree that they all need to be brought in line.

I can't believe Demon Reborn is still untouched.

[Forde]

Really not interested in momentum, especially because I don't like animation cancelling.

Has someone tested both Momentum and Bloodlet and have logs for it? I'd love to see the difference between them. Furthermore, is Fel Barrage still not implemented yet?

[Factor]

I'd like to weigh in here that suggesting "X should be baseline" at this point isn't constructive feedback anymore. Yes, it's reasonable to state that there is an issue in gaps in gameplay/aspects of the core kit that are lacking, but stating the fix be "Well just make X baseline cos it feels good!" solves nothing. Demonic whilst it does fit as an artifact trait and something I originally said would be good, I can genuinely see so, so many headaches down the line for tuning on it if it's just there. The solution should be bringing the other talents in line, not just saying that it should be given for free.

I don't think that in reality people actually want demonic, with all its bells and whistles, as a baseline ability. Really, its just a CD that beefs up the two main spenders in the toolkit...huzzah. What I think people are actually looking for is the class fantasy. They want to pop into Meta more often than once every couple minutes. Not for the dps boost, but for the visual. I agree that having the talent becoming baseline will create large tuning issues, but I also support that visual flavour making into the baseline gameplay however it can happen.

That being said, I do still support Felblade being baseline :P As a warrior main for quite some time, my absolute favourite thing is when Sudden Death procs and execute lights up. It feels good to have an ability not tied to an obvious CD that feels impactful when you press it. Felblade adds interactivity and fluidity to all the gameplay styles available in the talent tree and gives another ST damaging ability that DHs imo still seem to be missing. Yes you get it if you talent into it, but with Blade Dance and therefore Death Sweep hitting as hard as they do with First Blood, i'm not sure its competitive. Can that be fixed in tuning? Perhaps. But adding more to a rotation that is still generally, after looking at everyone's logs, hitting 1 or 2 75% of the time isn't a bad thing.

[Warstar]

I don't think that in reality people actually want demonic, with all its bells and whistles, as a baseline ability. Really, its just a CD that beefs up the two main spenders in the toolkit...huzzah. What I think people are actually looking for is the class fantasy. They want to pop into Meta more often than once every couple minutes. Not for the dps boost, but for the visual. I agree that having the talent becoming baseline will create large tuning issues, but I also support that visual flavour making into the baseline gameplay however it can happen.

That being said, I do still support Felblade being baseline :P As a warrior main for quite some time, my absolute favourite thing is when Sudden Death procs and execute lights up. It feels good to have an ability not tied to an obvious CD that feels impactful when you press it. Felblade adds interactivity and fluidity to all the gameplay styles available in the talent tree and gives another ST damaging ability that DHs imo still seem to be missing. Yes you get it if you talent into it, but with Blade Dance and therefore Death Sweep hitting as hard as they do with First Blood, i'm not sure its competitive. Can that be fixed in tuning? Perhaps. But adding more to a rotation that is still generally, after looking at everyone's logs, hitting 1 or 2 75% of the time isn't a bad thing.

I'd say people who want things baseline are because they see 2 things that are pretty awesome and they want both of them but one of the options is just too strong of a choice and as such you won't ever get to use the rest.

Demonic baseline would make stuff like Soul Rending be always an option for sustain. But, even without Soul Rending honestly survivability is pretty good for questing til you hit 110.

Really though while Demonic is awesome and probably going to be the go to 110 talent I really think that even in their current iterations (sans-Fel Barrage since it's still NYI) the lv 110 talents will be balanced. AoE probably going to end up being Fel Barrage once they get it properly in. Any fight that needs burst Chaos Blades and then all else will prolly be Demonic since it's the best over all.

[AngryCoco]

Build hype! I want Fel Barrage already >;(

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

New build! Fel Barrage properly implemented plz. Oh, and weapon procs brought back too, mmk?

- - - Updated - - -

Build hype! I want Fel Barrage already >;(

Gah! Been beat to it!

[AngryCoco]

Eyy I win. (Still took me 10 minutes to find the thread cause I am an idiot and didn't look at the sticky part)

[Baelroc]

I'd say people who want things baseline are because they see 2 things that are pretty awesome and they want both of them but one of the options is just too strong of a choice and as such you won't ever get to use the rest.

Demonic baseline would make stuff like Soul Rending be always an option for sustain. But, even without Soul Rending honestly survivability is pretty good for questing til you hit 110.

Really though while Demonic is awesome and probably going to be the go to 110 talent I really think that even in their current iterations (sans-Fel Barrage since it's still NYI) the lv 110 talents will be balanced. AoE probably going to end up being Fel Barrage once they get it properly in. Any fight that needs burst Chaos Blades and then all else will prolly be Demonic since it's the best over all.

I guess the big argument for me is exactly what Factor is saying. It feels bad (to me), if I have to take another level 110 talent like Fel Barrage on a specific fight just because its better in AoE. I feel like I am giving up the fantasy of the class when I don't take Demonic. This, to me, is like if Rogues had to talent for Stealth, or Warlocks could only summon demons if they took a talent.

Things that fit in so closely with a class fantasy should not be a talent. Especially on a class that is arguably still lacking some depth. If you don't take Demonic, one of the most iconic Demon Hunter fantasies is something you can only use ~1 per fight.

[Vanyali]

I guess the big argument for me is exactly what Factor is saying. It feels bad (to me), if I have to take another level 110 talent like Fel Barrage on a specific fight just because its better in AoE. I feel like I am giving up the fantasy of the class when I don't take Demonic. This, to me, is like if Rogues had to talent for Stealth, or Warlocks could only summon demons if they took a talent.

Things that fit in so closely with a class fantasy should not be a talent. Especially on a class that is arguably still lacking some depth. If you don't take Demonic, one of the most iconic Demon Hunter fantasies is something you can only use ~1 per fight.

You do still show up as a demon when you use the abilities - you just don't stay in demon form. Demonic is just an expansion of a theme that's already there.

[TheLimonTree]

Here's hoping the data mining doesn't take a whole day like last patch

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I guess the big argument for me is exactly what Factor is saying. It feels bad (to me), if I have to take another level 110 talent like Fel Barrage on a specific fight just because its better in AoE. I feel like I am giving up the fantasy of the class when I don't take Demonic. This, to me, is like if Rogues had to talent for Stealth, or Warlocks could only summon demons if they took a talent.

Things that fit in so closely with a class fantasy should not be a talent. Especially on a class that is arguably still lacking some depth. If you don't take Demonic, one of the most iconic Demon Hunter fantasies is something you can only use ~1 per fight.

Well luckily Demonic is pretty great for AoE if you're willing to hold onto the abilities it's tied to for it. I imagine that Demonic is the burst damage talent there anyhow. Hell, all 4 of the options aren't really that bad in most situations, excluding Fel Barrage I guess until it's properly implemented; although it does to appear to be some type of AoE'ish talent.