So I got my first mythic ilv drop in the legion alpha

[Kraineth]

Should people feel forced to play something they dont like only because it gives the best items?

So you agree that raiders shouldn't feel the need to do dailies for a chance at the best gear in the game. cool

All they need to do is provide some sort of timed gate before these items can be accessed. They are already planning on not allowing Keystone dungeons prior to raids releasing, so don't allow these quests to appear until raids unlock as well.

I get that you are trying to insinuate that most raiders have some sort of issue with people obtaining access to the best gear in the game. I think if you took the time to gather actual evidence and opinion, you would find that to be false.

I really couldn't care less, so long as the gear is not obtainable before we are even allowed to set foot inside a mythic raid.

[Indigenously Abled]

So content that is slightly harder than LFR and is similar to a trash pack gives gear that you earn from doing the hardest content in the game? That seems really unbalanced and unfair imo.

So you have a problem with the participation ribbon being gold + diamond studded?

Be careful, they'll call you a special snowflake.

[Deleted]

So you agree that raiders shouldn't feel the need to do dailies for a chance at the best gear in the game. cool

It doesnt drop better gear, but just the same. You have not just got one source for gear, but two. Diversity. Gameplay some of the "raiders" that feel forced to play raids even could like.

You actually could stick to raids only, as it drops the same gear.

Or is your "maximizing wish" stopping you from doing so?

I am not sure if the maximizing everything idea actually is something blizzard should support.

All they need to do is provide some sort of timed gate before these items can be accessed. They are already planning on not allowing Keystone dungeons prior to raids releasing, so don't allow these quests to appear until raids unlock as well.

No, they dont need to add a time gate. You just have to learn to overcome your envy.

[thunterman]

Probably because you like to play in a group? Or you like a challenge? Or you like prestige from being a high end raider?

I mean.. if you only play raids to get the best gear and wont really like to play it, i wonder you are actually not advocating a solution where the best gear was available from something else than raids you even probably liked to play.



You know we talk about a computer game and nothing which should stress you? And nothing which should force you to play a game component because the things that would be fun wont drop them?



So it's just envy at the end? You dont want anyone else to have your gear?

Hey, we talk about a computer game. And not about a management department where you hope to get the job of the senior accountant when he dies.. and wont like the secretary to get as much money as you.



You love your guild. You love your friends. You like the rewards.

But do you like raiding? Think about it. Also think about it if those people really are your friends, or just a alliance of purpose. The word "friend" is used very inflationary nowadays.

I thoroughly enjoy raiding, it can be stressful and difficult at times, that's all part of it. But when you get that last boss down and take note that your one of the best teams on your server, nothing beats that. That is the sole purpose of me playing, I just totally disagree with endgame, high end loot being obtainable by doing next to nothing in comparison.

The only way to make it fair, is to make these events just as hard as mythic raids, in which case, everyone will still bitch and moan, because yet again, envy and ego. They just simply wouldn't be able to complete the events, like they can't complete mythic raids. The people without the gear want to obtain it with little effort, just for the satisfaction of having it. That's unfair on the raiders that have worked for it over the years.

Yet another problem, high end guild will make doing these events compulsory. My guild did this when Valor was re-introduced. our entire mythic team grouped up, grinded mythic dungeons and LFR for valor. We are gonna have the same thing across the board. I can't enjoy something when I don't have a choice in doing it, and this gear availability is going to be forced across half the raiding community. So no, raiders are definitely going to hate this.

Both sides of this argument are driven by greed for gear, and quite frankly, I think the old way is better, there's nothing stopping people from raiding, they make it easy to get into with entry gear being very easy to obtain. If your not interested in raiding, then why do you want the gear?

This is literally as pointless as PvPers complaining because they don't get rewarded PvE gear. You get the gear that's stronger to progress, as with PvP, as you progress you get better PvP loot. If you spend your days farming daily's and collecting pets, why do you even need mythic raiding loot? Precisely, you don't.

[Deleted]

I thoroughly enjoy raiding, it can be stressful and difficult at times, that's all part of it.

So you actually have an intrinsic reward to play raids.

But when you get that last boss down and take note that your one of the best teams on your server, nothing beats that. That is the sole purpose of me playing, I just totally disagree with endgame, high end loot being obtainable by doing next to nothing in comparison.

You have prestige, the best items, challenges, group play and play together with your friends. Isnt that actually incentive enough for you to play raids? Is the exclusive extrinsic reward really what matters most to you?

Thats.. weird. As you have enough intrinsic rewards.

They just simply wouldn't be able to complete the events, like they can't complete mythic raids. The people without the gear want to obtain it with little effort, just for the satisfaction of having it. That's unfair on the raiders that have worked for it over the years.

I think the more easy solution is blizzard just should not listen to those full of envy. Either you like raiding for its intrinsic and exstrinsic reward, or you dont. It just doesnt matter if anyone else got the "Epic bobble cap of the mythic gnome killer".. If you dont like raiding, go and play something you think is fun.

[roahn the warlock]

Like they've never reversed direction before when they've gone too far in one direction or another. It looks to me that if you don't want to raid you won't have to do that and can still do OK. Maybe that's a lesson they learned from Warlords.

I still don't understand having mythic quality gear if you are not going to use it. Moana, the problem with making mythic gear too easy to get, is that you consume content that much faster. A glaring problem in WoD, is you finished everything in like, a week.

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So you actually have an intrinsic reward to play raids.



You have prestige, the best items, challenges, group play and play together with your friends. Isnt that actually incentive enough for you to play raids? Is the exclusive extrinsic reward really what matters most to you?

Thats.. weird. As you have enough intrinsic rewards.



I think the more easy solution is blizzard just should not listen to those full of envy. Either you like raiding for its intrinsic and exstrinsic reward, or you dont. It just doesnt matter if anyone else got the "Epic bobble cap of the mythic gnome killer".. If you dont like raiding, go and play something you think is fun.

I'm having trouble following your sentence structure. What do you mean by "envy" Who is envious of casuals? nobody, our issue is that time and effort should equal reward.

[Mechonics]

Your complaint is more aligned with "mythic raiding won't crush non mythic raiders in to oblivion anymore".

I actually don't care if people not doing mythic have mythic gear. If you suck at the game, you will never kill a mythic boss so it doesn't really matter; The gear crutch will only get you so far.

The problem is, I don't want the reward system (more/better gear) to lose it's effect 3 months into the expansion. Because I've had 90 days to farm these items + doing mythic. If they want content to last longer, it should be harder and take longer to get the rewards.

Quests/World quests should give blues that aren't raid quality. It's not to keep the casuals down (because I really don't care about them) it's so that raiders can't gear up faster than they should which causes the content dies out faster. It actually helps the casuals have infinite things to do since gearing up for them would also take longer...again - I'm not trying to keep raid gear out of casuals hands, I just don't want to be insta-raid geared from doing world quests. That's fucking stupid.

[Deleted]

I'm having trouble following your sentence structure. What do you mean by "envy" Who is envious of casuals? nobody, our issue is that time and effort should equal reward.

Envious for the fact your stereotype could get the same rewards a raider could get.

World Quests with mythic loots are extremely rare. You get one chance in some months, and not one chance every day. So your envy for anyone else playing the game but not raids getting a rare mythic items is just a complete hyperbole.

Infact, the items are time gated.

[roahn the warlock]

Envious for the fact your stereotype could get the same rewards a raider could get.

World Quests with mythic loots are extremely rare. You get one chance in some months, and not one chance every day. So your envy for anyone else playing the game but not raids getting a rare mythic items is just a complete hyperbole.

Infact, the items are time gated.

Envy is not the word to be used here. The issue mythic raiders have with this, is that time and effort should equal reward. This system of instant gratification is what is killing a game based around keeping people playing for as long as possible.. You have 14 people, and 2 of the drops were mythic in quality? This is the same as the cache, you have people getting this high end gear with no effort, then when they get to the harder content... Their gear is better than the reward, and that is baaaaad.

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I'm.. actually very happy with that. Raid level World Mobs giving that type of loot. I can fucks with that.

Yay for not having to progress purely through raiding.

But what are you progressing towards?

[Mechonics]

It doesnt drop better gear, but just the same. You have not just got one source for gear, but two. Diversity. Gameplay some of the "raiders" that feel forced to play raids even could like.

You actually could stick to raids only, as it drops the same gear.

Or is your "maximizing wish" stopping you from doing so?

I am not sure if the maximizing everything idea actually is something blizzard should support.



No, they dont need to add a time gate. You just have to learn to overcome your envy.

God you're such a fucking troll and everything that is wrong with this game.

This RPG used to be narrow pathways with deep journeys - what you just explained is why the game sucks. Mile wide, inch deep content so that people who aren't willing to go on that long journey can still get the things they never put the time into getting.

Nobody cares if you or anyone else has the best gear in the game, but if it takes someone 6 months to get mythic gear, it should take a casual 6 months and the same amount of time (20hrs/week for 6 months).

The time/reward relationship has to be the same or it completely destroys the reward system. Clearly you understand that though right? Okay cool.

[Deleted]

Envy is not the word to be used here. The issue mythic raiders have with this, is that time and effort should equal reward. This system of instant gratification is what is killing a game based around keeping people playing for as long as possible.

The system of "instant gratification" and "items on a silverplate" is nothing but a stereotype, as like your obvious idea about people you call "casual players".

Whats really actually "killing the game" is elitism. And a community thats entirely being based on a meritocracy. A focus on gameplay for a few only.

Instead for adding another set of challenge mode dungeons, blizzard also could have improved LFR, which doesnt just only adress a minority, but 70-80% of the players.

[roahn the warlock]

The system of "instant gratification" and "items on a silverplate" is nothing but a stereotype, as like your obvious idea about people you call "casual players".

Whats really actually "killing the game" is elitism. And a community thats entirely being based on a meritocracy. A focus on gameplay for a few only.

Seeing as Elitism has been around since Vanilla? I'm gonna say you're wrong. Since instant gratification has been around since 3.3, I'm gonna say I'm right.

You understand the reason that the Garrison caches stopped dropping gear higher than what they did in raiding, is because people would be in full heroic gear, before stepping into heroic Blackrock Foundry. So PEOPLE DIDN'T DO IT.

You need rewards to do content, it's what warcraft is based on and around. Seeing people who just suck at the game walking around in the coolest gear, sucks the fun out of it. Give them mounts, what is wrong with mounts? Nothing.

Oh, and warcraft isn't communist Russia, it isn't elitist to think that if you play the game better, you should get better things. I am not 13/13 mythic, im 6/13 mythic, and I only pug, I don't cry like a big baby because I can't get mythic Archie gear, and the felreaver mount.

[Mawnix]

But what are you progressing towards?

I mean, you can ask that same question towards any activity in game. What are you ever progressing towards?

If you have to team up with a group to tackle some tough content, you should be rewarded. Is that not the philosophy of Raiding? Of PVP?

[roahn the warlock]

The system of "instant gratification" and "items on a silverplate" is nothing but a stereotype, as like your obvious idea about people you call "casual players".

Whats really actually "killing the game" is elitism. And a community thats entirely being based on a meritocracy. A focus on gameplay for a few only.

Instead for adding another set of challenge mode dungeons, blizzard also could have improved LFR, which doesnt just only adress a minority, but 70-80% of the players.

Oh, and LFR is a cancer on the game, and I am so very glad they are killing it off in favor of dungeons.

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I mean, you can ask that same question towards any activity in game. What are you ever progressing towards?

If you have to team up with a group to tackle some tough content, you should be rewarded. Is that not the philosophy of Raiding? Of PVP?

Well, in 6.2, you are progressing towards the defeat of Archiemonde. You need to gear to progress to it.

Do you know why heroic and mythic archie drop mounts? Because after you beat him, you no longer need gear. So another incentive is added so mythic raiders keep playing the game.

Do you see how it works? Casuals don't need mythic quality gear, they need mounts, and cosmetic rewards, and fun pets, and bullcrap like that. They don't need gear.

[Paula Deen]

This is extremely good news. First thing I hear about the Legion Endgame in practice and it already sounds great!

[thunterman]

So you actually have an intrinsic reward to play raids.



You have prestige, the best items, challenges, group play and play together with your friends. Isnt that actually incentive enough for you to play raids? Is the exclusive extrinsic reward really what matters most to you?

Thats.. weird. As you have enough intrinsic rewards.



I think the more easy solution is blizzard just should not listen to those full of envy. Either you like raiding for its intrinsic and exstrinsic reward, or you dont. It just doesnt matter if anyone else got the "Epic bobble cap of the mythic gnome killer".. If you dont like raiding, go and play something you think is fun.

But what your refusing to realise is that your desire for these changes is exactly the same as my reason for disagreeing with them. Please, after saying it 4 times, tell me you get it now?

Everyone wants the best items - that's a given. I like raiding, I like playing with friends, but if there is no advantage, other than the privilege of doing so, I, and the entire raiding community are better off playing a different game, that we don't have to pay monthly for. You CHOOSE not to raid - that's fine. You CHOOSE not to get the loot, that is also fine. YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT.

Mythic loot is so much better because it is required to complete mythic raids, you can complete these events and world bosses in quest gear and dungeon gear, that is why non-raiders are cut off from the raiding gear. You receive what you require for the content you do. If you collect stuff, you don't need uber gear, if you do events, you don't need uber gear. If you raid high end, you NEED that gear to get through it.

Your argument is as invalid as this one ;

I spend no time farming mounts, why do I not have this rare mount - but this guy, that spend hours farming it does?
do you understand now?

you bought flying for 10K, but because I complained, but also couldn't be bothered to make the gold I get it discounted. You'd be angry.
I get a mount because I want it, after you spent months farming it (TLPD for example Just imagine if they made it spawn every 2 seconds after a few months) - You'd be pissed.

You need to see this argument from my perspective.

[Deleted]

Seeing as Elitism has been around since Vanilla? I'm gonna say you're wrong. Since instant gratification has been around since 3.3, I'm gonna say I'm right.

We probably just have to agree not to agree here. Just keep your stereotypes. And your hateful idea about the "bad casual" that wants to take away your loot, which has to be exclusive.

You understand the reason that the Garrison caches stopped dropping gear higher than what they did in raiding, is because people would be in full heroic gear, before stepping into heroic Blackrock Foundry. So PEOPLE DIDN'T DO IT.

No, it was implemented like that since start, as hazzikostas already answered to a fake "concern" about better items dropping from garrison than from raids at the blizzcon before WoD.

You need rewards to do content, it's what warcraft is based on and around.

Actually, the best games are those which are both instrinsically and extrinsicially rewarding. Tell me, do you miss any intrinsic and extrinsic reward in organized raiding?

Seeing people who just suck at the game walking around in the coolest gear, sucks the fun out of it. Give them mounts, what is wrong with mounts? Nothing.

There could be organized raiders who would feel obliged to get the mounts. They would come to the forums then and tell everyone how much only they deserve those mounts, and that they should be raid exclusive.

History repeats, you know?

[roahn the warlock]

No, it was implemented like that since start, as hazzikostas already answered to a fake "concern" about better items dropping from garrison than from raids at the blizzcon before WoD.



Actually, the best games are those which are both instrinsically and extrinsicially rewarding. Tell me, do you miss any intrinsic and extrinsic reward in organized raiding?



There could be organized raiders who would feel obliged to get the mounts. They would come to the forums then and tell everyone how much only they deserve those mounts, and that they should be raid exclusive.

History repeats, you know?

To the first comment, no, that's why HFC caches only drop loot on the tier of raiding you are progressing on, unlike how in BRF, it gave you one tier higher.

Mounts have always been tied to reputations and world content, we only complain about the shitty store.

Oh, and no, I raid because I like looking unique. Really no other reason.

[psn1993]

People really feel like it's fair they can get Mythic level loot from tagging a world boss then going afk till the rest kills it compared to hours of mythic progress?

It will sounds elitist because it probably is, but casuals shouldn't be able to get this kind of loot for no effort at all. There might be a little bit effort now on the alpha as there is not many people there. But once it hits retail you can most likely afk through the world quest "you can on the alpha atm with how tagging works and doesn't require groups"

LFR and world boss loot was fine this xpac. It was shitty ilvl because it was piss easy to do.

Everyone saying this is good news are probably still stuck on Gorefiend.

[roahn the warlock]

People really feel like it's fair they can get Mythic level loot from tagging a world boss then going afk till the rest kills it compared to hours of mythic progress?

Honestly, I don't mind as long as the gear looks like shit. To be fair. But unlike entitled people I champion what is clearly the rational opinion.