So I got my first mythic ilv drop in the legion alpha

[roahn the warlock]

Sure it already is the case. You already get special intrinsic rewards. You get group play. You play "with friends". You play a challenge, which you obviously like..

Or do you just play for the items?

literally just the items, thanks, because this is an MMORPG, don't know what game you signed up for.

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Then they have to limit it somehow. So you can get 2-3 items per week or something like that.

lol, 2-3 per week, more like 1 a month or 2... maybe. Would be fine

[Deleted]

What did you get specifically? Just gloves, belts, rings? Or helms, shoulders and better stuff like that.

I don't think I'll even bother with it if it won't drop flashy and cool stuff like that.

I got a chest. Few people got gloves and legs. It seemed broken up by class.

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Sorry, I must ask, what was the ilvl of the gear that dropped?

All the ilv was the same it doesn't seem like they settled on what the power curve will be yet in regards to raid loot. All loot was 850 with heroic and mythic having different text to indicate they proced better.

[Deleted]

literally just the items, thanks, because this is an MMORPG, don't know what game you signed up for.

Really? Not for having fun in raids? Why dont you actually advocate the idea to allow good gear from other components you probably even would love to play?

[Lutris]

For the millionth time, why do you need loot stronger than LFR if you are not raiding? There is no reason for other routes because you've essentially finished the game if you aren't raiding in terms of needing gear.

If you spend your days farming daily's and collecting pets, why do you even need mythic raiding loot? Precisely, you don't.

Gear is progression for the majority of casual players. I know raiders see it as a tool but casuals see small power increases as something that makes their gameplay more fun.

But this mindset is actually one of the reasons WoD flopped so hard, tbh. Non-raiders don't need gear or set bonuses or fun trinkets... But when there's no chance of actually getting a hold of these things, these players quit en masse. If all of the fun things related to character progression are locked behind something the majority find the opposite of fun, those players will just leave.

And that is very bad for the game's overall health, and not just because it results in a much smaller population in-game. "Don't like it then leave" gets thrown around a lot in these forums, and is actually a big part of the reason the game's going downhill. Chasing people out for constructive/criticism means we get an echo chamber, which means the quality of the game itself degrades.

But what are you progressing towards?

Fun.

Also when it comes to farming pets and mounts you kind of need high level gear to solo old content. (Obviously I'm talking about MoP raids specifically since the blanket nerf to older content-- but you did need flex/normal+ raid-level gear to solo cata in very late MoP.)

They might not be progressing through mythic raiding but they are still progressing. And that sense of progression is important even if you think it's stupid.

Gating the only worthwhile rewards behind normal+ raiding didn't do WoD any favours in that regard.

There could be organized raiders who would feel obliged to get the mounts. They would come to the forums then and tell everyone how much only they deserve those mounts, and that they should be raid exclusive.

It was a jaylock thread iirc but this literally happened a couple months ago, lol.

Also, I think everyone is getting way too invested in the "afk and get loot" thing. It is highly unlikely world quests that reward that level of gear are going to be that easy. Or that they'll even drop loot this frequently (because the best way to test something is to tune up the droprates to make sure it's working before you settle on the actual number).

But it's important that there are useful rewards outside of raids for casual players, or we're going to lose a hell of a lot more players. Most people I know are considering Legion the "make-or-break" as far as continuing to play WoW in the future. If we get a second WoD then it's possible there won't be any more raids, or content, at all.

[Deleted]

Also, I think everyone is getting way too invested in the "afk and get loot" thing. It is highly unlikely world quests that reward that level of gear are going to be that easy. Or that they'll even drop loot this frequently (because the best way to test something is to tune up the droprates to make sure it's working before you settle on the actual number).

Actually, the "afk or get loot" thing is just a stereotype, as you never get the best gear without any kind of effort, be it a time effort or a skill effort.

But it's important that there are useful rewards outside of raids for casual players, or we're going to lose a hell of a lot more players. Most people I know are considering Legion the "make-or-break" as far as continuing to play WoW in the future. If we get a second WoD then it's possible there won't be any more raids, or content, at all.

I dont see any reason to limit good gear to raids only. Actually, people should play raids for fun mainly, and not only because they get the best extrinsic reward. Exactly that leads to a toxic community and elitism.

[thunterman]

I dont know, i could live without the best items. I would prefer an intrinsic reward over the "great gnomen killers epic staff of envy".. You know, a fun gameplay instead of the shoulders with the largest stat.

But i am sure thats just my personal preference here.



No, you actually got a lot of advantages in playing raids, not just the best items, but also playing with your friends, also playing in a organized group, with a challenge and the "yes we did it"-feeling. Organized raiding got three difficulty levels while the matchmade completely neglected and nerfed-to-oblivion version only has one incarnation, and still adresses the most players.

Actually, the devs focus on your kind of gameplay, and add the best raiding content ever. And still that isnt enough for you. And still everything needs to be exclusive for you.. you actually sound like a millionaire who is unhappy that others may have a car as well.. while you sit at your pool drinking pina coladas.



The real reason why raids drop the best loot is because Hazzikostas wants you to play raids. Operant conditioning. You are one of those who actually do it for the best items, so just feel conditioned.



Your argument literally is that you want exclusivity. Thats all.

I just give up. Seriously. there is having a debate, then there is just reading the words wrong and talking tripe. You are in-capable of understanding, by the sounds of it, wow isn't the game for you. This is how it's always been, if you want a game without loot, and your reward is happy points, go elsewhere.

I don't want exclusivity, I want a proven system (over 10 years!) to remain unchanged. IF YOU WANT THE LOOT EARN IT. Stop crying about it, if your not good enough to raid, practice. Don't whine until you get a handout. Seriously, I'm actually close to jumping on the "they are making the game for casuals" bandwagon, and that's something I've been strongly against for so long.

I dont see any reason to limit good gear to raids only. Actually, people should play raids for fun mainly, and not only because they get the best extrinsic reward. Exactly that leads to a toxic community and elitism.

Newsflash, theres 4 difficulties,
brainless mode - LFR
play with friends mode - Normal
Play with guild mode - Heroic
hardcore mode. - Mythic

If you wanna raid for fun, stick to the first 2, if you want organised raiding go to 3. 4 is for the dedicated, and they deserve what they get.

Gear is progression for the majority of casual players. I know raiders see it as a tool but casuals see small power increases as something that makes their gameplay more fun.

then they need to jump into raids. simple as.

The game has always worked the same way, there is 2 paths. PvP and PvE - You strive to reach the end of your chosen path, you get rewarded with gear the higher along you get. this is world of warcraft - It's come a hell of a long way since Vanilla, hell, I didn't even enter Naxx. I was casual, I made an effort, i did ZG, MC, that was it. TBC was much the same, extremely restrictive, anti-casual.

Since that point Casuals have have TONNES of thigns added, its formed a 3rd path.

Now, visualise a chart. theres 3 bars, the top of PvP is *best PvP gear*..... infact... I'm gonna get on paint for this one.





Do you see the injustice in these changes? what was our paths reward, for both PvPers and PvEr's is being given out to that separate "Casual" path. We won't reap hardly any benefits to their playstyle (assuming these people, you know, have jobs and family's) they won't have the time too after their raids / pvp grinds.

But, it's ok, because we get to play with friends? really? EVERYONE CAN DO THAT.

I get home from work, Get my son off to bed, log in, check I've got pots get straight onto TS and off I go into my raid. I literally cannot spare 30 minutes to go rare killing, rinse repeat until my weekend off. I don't have the time to commit to both, So, Should I get all the cool stuff obtainable through killing rares without having to bother killing the rares? No, I shouldn't because I'd be invading your path in doing so, that's not fair. Collectors getting free epics isn't fair on those who choose to follow the PvE path either.

Case closed, I don't see how anyone can argue everything I've said today.. please... move on. I'm going to bed.

[Deleted]

This is how it's always been, if you want a game without loot, and your reward is happy points, go elsewhere.

I want a game with loot from components people chose to play. And not from componets they are lured into for loot.

Stop crying about it, if your not good enough to raid, practice.

Why should i practice for something i dont like to play nowadays? I just dont want to play raids. Still i want to be able to progress my char. And this should not be limited to one single component only. Character progression is part of every single RPG gamestyle.

Newsflash, theres 4 difficulties,
brainless mode - LFR
play with friends mode - Normal
Play with guild mode - Heroic
hardcore mode. - Mythic

I referred to one matchmade difficulty and three organized difficulties.

If you wanna raid for fun, stick to the first 2, if you want organised raiding go to 3. 4 is for the dedicated, and they deserve what they get.

So you tell me you dont have fun in heroic and mythic raiding?

Why do you actually play it then? Because of your friends?

And why dont you just play the gamestyle you actually like?

[thunterman]

You are once again misinterpreting what I'm saying. Refer to diagram above.

[Lisa Frank Succubus]

All I can think of that is "IS GALLEON UP?" "IS GALLEON UP?" "DUDES STOP PROGRESSING THE BOSS GALLEON IS UP WE GOTTA GET THERE BEFORE THE PLEBS KILLS IT COS IT DROPS BETTER GEAR THAN WHAT WE CAN GET FROM MSV" "OH YOU WEREN'T PLAYING FRIDAY NIGHT? LOL YOU MISSED GALLEON SPAWN GL TRY IN A FEW DAYS MATE".
Please tell me it's not going to be like that. I have not tested the alpha. So please tell me it's not galleon v2.

It was still more to do than WoD.

[Smank]

I really don't get why people think that they should get the best gear for doing the easiest content. I was what most would call a casual from Wrath to around that start of MoP, but I knew my place. The content I was doing was piss easy, It didn't require any skill and anyone could do it. So why would I expect to get the same rewards people who dedicate a hell of a lot of time and effort to perfecting their skill? That's like entering in a race and complaining when you don'y get the same cash prize that the 1st place winner gets.
TL;DR: Effort should equal the reward you get. MMO's aren't the place for handouts.

[Smetz]

more of getting the best gear with minimal effort. Just what WoW needs..

[Redroniksre]

You are once again misinterpreting what I'm saying. Refer to diagram above.

That model of progression used to work, back then. Now things have changed in gaming as a whole and the majority of WoW players prefer World Content rather than PvP or Raiding. The choice comes down to either Blizzard can begin to add more content, more difficulty and more reward to the content that players overwhelmingly -do- want to play, OR stick with the old method, and limit rewards for the majority, causing them to leave earlier due to lack of content/boredom, but at least the PvPers and Raiders would be happy, not for long as sub plummet more.

I used to be okay with not raiding, and even now i still do occasionally raid, but it is not for everyone and if the game wants to survive in the coming era in the games industry it has to adapt.

[theredviola]

I'm.. actually very happy with that. Raid level World Mobs giving that type of loot. I can fucks with that.

Yay for not having to progress purely through raiding.

My reaction too. I don't completely hate it; but I have a feeling that it's one of those sorts of things that'll get old FAST. But, I'll wait and see it for myself.

[roahn the warlock]

That model of progression used to work, back then. Now things have changed in gaming as a whole and the majority of WoW players prefer World Content rather than PvP or Raiding. The choice comes down to either Blizzard can begin to add more content, more difficulty and more reward to the content that players overwhelmingly -do- want to play, OR stick with the old method, and limit rewards for the majority, causing them to leave earlier due to lack of content/boredom, but at least the PvPers and Raiders would be happy, not for long as sub plummet more.

I used to be okay with not raiding, and even now i still do occasionally raid, but it is not for everyone and if the game wants to survive in the coming era in the games industry it has to adapt.

World content is fine, but it doesn't need to give out mythic gear.

[Deleted]

Well, in Legion, World Bosses are World Quests...

And there is plenty of them like 10 even more in the Book

[Slippery Gypsy]

If you are a male, and there were naked women all over the place - your value for seeing a naked woman, inherently diminishes. Apply said principle to loot/titles/mounts.

A male would never make this statement, therefore, I surmise that you're not male.

[Maoli]

I wish they split pve in two halves; raid gear and world gear and make the gear stats / bonus scale down if used in the wrong content. Then they could have awesome world bosses and world raids and shit like that, the gear you get from them would be exclusively used for that out door content and raiders could completely ignore it if they want to. People that ignore raiding and just horde up a set of world gear wouldn't be able to walk into a raid fully decked out and would have to earn gear the same as everyone else. Instead of pve and pvp we'd have pve, world and pvp. Out door areas could have more interesting content that would be more random while raiding would be static content you do with your guild.

[Deleted]

If you are a male, and there were naked women all over the place - your value for seeing a naked woman, inherently diminishes. Apply said principle to loot/titles/mounts.

That comparision isn't really accurate cos half of the internet is porn. You don't have to look hard in order to find almost any kind of naked women.

As far as the topic goes, it really doesn't bother me that non-raiders get their strong epix. Let them wreck world content and solo old raids for gold, if that's what they want to do with that good gear. I still gonna have my fun on mythic in guild.

I just want that this isn't any sort of rare spawn that gets zerged down within 30 seconds. I hate mob camping.

[Delaios]

Now, visualise a chart. theres 3 bars, the top of PvP is *best PvP gear*..... infact... I'm gonna get on paint for this one.



[IMG]http ://i.imgur.com/1gNB9Tm.png[/IMG]

Do you see the injustice in these changes? what was our paths reward, for both PvPers and PvEr's is being given out to that separate "Casual" path. We won't reap hardly any benefits to their playstyle (assuming these people, you know, have jobs and family's) they won't have the time too after their raids / pvp grinds.

But, it's ok, because we get to play with friends? really? EVERYONE CAN DO THAT.

I get home from work, Get my son off to bed, log in, check I've got pots get straight onto TS and off I go into my raid. I literally cannot spare 30 minutes to go rare killing, rinse repeat until my weekend off. I don't have the time to commit to both, So, Should I get all the cool stuff obtainable through killing rares without having to bother killing the rares? No, I shouldn't because I'd be invading your path in doing so, that's not fair. Collectors getting free epics isn't fair on those who choose to follow the PvE path either.

Case closed, I don't see how anyone can argue everything I've said today.. please... move on. I'm going to bed.

You're assuming people have to make a choice in what path they follow. High end players that only stick to their "path" are a minority of a minority. Casual content isn't a separate path and it isn't even designed at casuals. It's just accessible, to everyone. It has very little to no requirements to get started.

Casuals are just as likely to get all the cool stuff obtainable from high end PvE without participating in it as you are to get all the "casual" cool stuff without doing it. We're talking about very rare upgrades to rewards from quests that are already rare themselves.

The actual cool and rare "casual" stuff isn't even designed for casuals at all. They either require excessive camping (with realm hopping), or they require lengthy grinds and good RNG. Someone that's camping for the time-lost drake for weeks isn't a casual. Someone who farms for rare raid mounts from old expansions every week on multiple characters isn't a casual.

[Lutris]

then they need to jump into raids. simple as.

The game has always worked the same way, there is 2 paths. PvP and PvE - You strive to reach the end of your chosen path, you get rewarded with gear the higher along you get. this is world of warcraft - It's come a hell of a long way since Vanilla, hell, I didn't even enter Naxx. I was casual, I made an effort, i did ZG, MC, that was it. TBC was much the same, extremely restrictive, anti-casual.

Since that point Casuals have have TONNES of thigns added, its formed a 3rd path.

See, that's what I don't agree with. There should be three equally rewarding paths for all kinds of players (although there is no "casual" path, world content is PVE just like raiding). We're just coming out of an expansion where the only rewarding path is raiding, and it's clear now that that cannot sustain the game long term. Cata and MoP spiked at launch, but had significantly better player retention due to having rewarding things outside of the raids. PVE includes world content, although I admit I'd delight in the irony of having "Raiding" and "World Content" gear that fuctions sub-optimally in the other branch of PVE. (It wouldn't be worth dealing with the raider tears, though.)

And as far as jumping into the raids... Well, I guess I'm unusual in that despite being young my hands (as well as the rest of my body) are riddled with arthritis. I've tried jumping into raids, and all I will ever do is hold other people back. That doesn't mean I don't put the effort into doing things "properly"-- I've managed to push my "main" up into mythic dungeons-- but I will always be a liability in normal raiding or higher because my twitch response isn't want it is ten years ago. No matter how hard I practice I am never gonna overcome the fact that my fingers don't bend properly.

Obviously not everyone has a crippling disability like I do. Some people can't just put their kids to bed before raid time (I don't know how old your son is, but don't bet on being able to do that forever). Some people are working hours that mean they can only get a few hours here and there to work on things. All I want is the ability to work towards things that don't involve me struggling to keep up in normal raids and feeling awful because i can't pull enough dps to justify my being there. And gear is something I want to work towards, because it is a big component in my ability to do older content like mount and transmog collecting and/or soloing old raids.

It was different in MoP when lfr had mechanics that actually mattered to a degree and rewards that matched that effort. I carried most groups I was in in MoP lfr, and it might've been a shitty difficulty but it actually filled my needs. WoD lfr is so brainless and shitty that I didn't even bother starting on the legendary ring quest until like... three months ago?

I like the idea of all content being potentially as rewarding as possible, just a lower chance on the relatively easier content like this. It keeps the world quest content interesting because there's always a chance for improvement.

Yeah, pretty much how I feel about it.

You're assuming people have to make a choice in what path they follow. High end players that only stick to their "path" are a minority of a minority. Casual content isn't a separate path and it isn't even designed at casuals. It's just accessible, to everyone. It has very little to no requirements to get started.

Casuals are just as likely to get all the cool stuff obtainable from high end PvE without participating in it as you are to get all the "casual" cool stuff without doing it. We're talking about very rare upgrades to rewards from quests that are already rare themselves.

The actual cool and rare "casual" stuff isn't even designed for casuals at all. They either require excessive camping (with realm hopping), or they require lengthy grinds and good RNG. Someone that's camping for the time-lost drake for weeks isn't a casual. Someone who farms for rare raid mounts from old expansions every week on multiple characters isn't a casual.

Didn't see this when I was writing the rest of my post, but I do agree.