Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

On the other hand I like that shadow priests are right when they are supposed to be. Been LMAO when Blizzard was like "uh oh priest have so much utility it could be a problem" last build, then proceeded to remove insanity cost on all of those KAPPA. That spec is actually faster than rogue, has AoE stun, multidot, 40yd range, bit of burst and execute, offensive dispel, mass dispel, self heal, absorb with joke cd, weak raid cd and that "fun" ability that is only just for fun and certainly wont be used for every farm boss in case of another zerg tier like hfc because its just 2 mins void form with double damage in the final phase. And all of this is definitely staying, wonder if Blizzard is ballsy enough to actually tax that class for all of this in form of damage, what do you guys think? I think I would take 10 shadow priests even with 90% dps output. They think Blizzard hates them because psychic horror is gone and they lose insanity while ccd.

Useless post but I just wanted to say how this game turned into ultimate clown fiesta without mentioning Legion rogue.

[Mafic]

The change to Shadow Strike's range is kind of meaningless in the grand scheme of things but probably an experiment to see if slows down Sub in PVP and gives casters breathing room Honestly it isn't the range that is the problem it is the consistency of being on top of a target via Shadow Strike being chained in succession.

[Soisoisoi]

Still no change to Shadow Nova and Shadow Dance. Ugh... :/

[Mafic]

On the other hand I like that shadow priests are right when they are supposed to be. Been LMAO when Blizzard was like "uh oh priest have so much utility it could be a problem" last build, then proceeded to remove insanity cost on all of those KAPPA. That spec is actually faster than rogue, has AoE stun, multidot, 40yd range, bit of burst and execute, offensive dispel, mass dispel, self heal, absorb with joke cd, weak raid cd and that "fun" ability that is only just for fun and certainly wont be used for every farm boss in case of another zerg tier like hfc because its just 2 mins void form with double damage in the final phase. And all of this is definitely staying, wonder if Blizzard is ballsy enough to actually tax that class for all of this in form of damage, what do you guys think? I think I would take 10 shadow priests even with 90% dps output. They think Blizzard hates them because psychic horror is gone and they lose insanity while ccd.

Useless post but I just wanted to say how this game turned into ultimate clown fiesta without mentioning Legion rogue.

I think DPS hybrids should definitely offer more utility, but yeah utility is what makes specs unique and stand out. As for resource cost I think some things costing insanity is what made it force tough choices but maybe the opportunity costs were too punitive. In either case, I think they have undone a lot of the pruning they did early on with DPS hybrids and they are starting to allow DPS hybrids to have their utility again which makes for a richer gaming experience.

As for Rogue niche of survivability via cool downs...there is a new challenger in town and their name is Demon Hunter.

[wavefunctionp]

Maybe you dont know, some of us do. Their current idea is to unlock full artifact in few weeks. If you would actually play the game you would know exactly what time investment are we talking about, its the same thing everytime: MoP legendary each stage 3-5 weeks, time until raid opens everytime 3-4 weeks, WoD all legendary stages 3-5 weeks. I mean, are we really that ignorant to not see this will be the same again? And there are already new questlines promised with each tier, wanna guess how long will those take? And you will never fully catch up in time, even if relics are the only problem. So everytime I get to hardest bosses of each tier, I am stuck to one of my niches. Class fantasy? No this has nothing to do with it. And I dont really know how can someone support this cancer, I guess people dont have enough experience, tunneling one minigame (PvP), are in denial or just idiots. Its just sad that majority fits the second description so Blizzard is in fact right, people dont care, because its not their problem, right?

I'm pretty sure I play between 6-15 hours a week most weeks.

We don't know anything, we can speculate. But until the progression is finalized and numbers are settled, we won't know. This doesn't mean we can't voice our concerns, but it could easily turn out that after 50% of the progression you get 90% of the benefit, and suddenly opening up that next artifact at a reduced cost instead of going all in seems reasonable. Or maybe for most of the fights, spec choice doesn't matter that much on early bosses or maybe one spec completely dominates and there's no reason to really open another artifact early on.

These are all reasonable scenarios, but we just don't know.

[Deleted]

I think DPS hybrids should definitely offer more utility, but yeah utility is what makes specs unique and stand out. As for resource cost I think some things costing insanity is what made it force tough choices but maybe the opportunity costs were too punitive. In either case, I think they have undone a lot of the pruning they did early on with DPS hybrids and they are starting to allow DPS hybrids to have their utility again which makes for a richer gaming experience.

I dont see "at a cost" in your post, is this really how you see things?

We don't know anything, we can speculate. But until the progression is finalized and numbers are settled, we won't know. This doesn't mean we can't voice our concerns, but it could easily turn out that after 50% of the progression you get 90% of the benefit, and suddenly opening up that next artifact at a reduced cost instead of going all in seems reasonable. Or maybe for most of the fights, spec choice doesn't matter that much on early bosses or maybe one spec completely dominates and there's no reason to really open another artifact early on.

Well then speculating is everything, because otherwise you can just sit and watch, you will not get this one known until live release. You should realize that os artifacts are content for Blizzard, so there is no reason why they would just hand in those. Any extra effort is stupid, especially in a situation when getting first maxed out artifact lines up with almost end of first raid. But I see this is not topic for mmo-champion, so w/e.

[Smaxy]

@Mafic : Rogue has better survivability than DH. By far.

[Willoughby]

I suspect a lot of progression players will go with Outlaw as it is the safe bet to go with and most players that like Sub will be players that really love the spec. Damage tuning may factor into this, but I doubt they put Outlaw at the bottom of single target for Legion expansion while we know the intent is to have Sub as a high single target spec.

Buffing Outlaw's single target will also buff its cleave, so I think they know that's a dangerous proposition, and definitely the reason why Combat was never even decent at single target all expansion long.

Assassination is the safest bet for an all-around spec, I think, but it'll all come down to tuning.

[Roncero]

I choose to believe that Sub has a large talent & artefact overhaul coming, and that is the reason we've had very little changes. ;_;

[Narokath]

I choose to believe that Sub has a large talent & artefact overhaul coming, and that is the reason we've had very little changes. ;_;

The same can be said and hoped for regarding Assassination and Outlaw. Literally every single Feedback thread has had a resounding outcry regarding the same issues, and there are obvious bugs that have been ignored.

Nothing has been done despite the fact that; Subtlety was half way through a terrible evolution and shriveled back into an undesired state, Outlaw has not improved upon Combat issues and has added an extra layer of issues, Assassination is still boring but has a bit more management.

I don't want to wait until they slap on the name "Beta" and whatever dramatic change they do or don't do is something we, as a community, thoroughly dislike. Because if that happens, despite being a Rogue since day 1 of the game, I'm just going to roll their new baby; Demon Hunter.

[kalaratic]

Because if that happens, despite being a Rogue since day 1 of the game, I'm just going to roll their new baby; Demon Hunter.

the cynic in me believes this is why they fucked up rogue

[Narokath]

the cynic in me believes this is why they fucked up rogue

I didn't even think about that. I did when they introduced Monk though.

Also now that I've read the Alpha Notes and discovered absolutely nothing impactful at all, I don't even know what to do. Oh, they also made poison cast times longer...

[Mafic]

Buffing Outlaw's single target will also buff its cleave, so I think they know that's a dangerous proposition, and definitely the reason why Combat was never even decent at single target all expansion long.

Assassination is the safest bet for an all-around spec, I think, but it'll all come down to tuning.

That is true, but WoD was the exception no? In the past, Combat has had above average single target damage while still taking advantage of cleave. I would be surprised if Blizz sticks with the WoD paradigm for all three specs in PVE heading into Legion (seems like it).

- - - Updated - - -

the cynic in me believes this is why they fucked up rogue

I always look for a more simpler explanation. Most of the ideas they had for Rogues went into Monks and Demon Hunters so with Rogues they are not really pushing the boundaries of change (exception being Shadow Dance charges and Roll the Bones).

[kalaratic]

I always look for a more simpler explanation. Most of the ideas they had for Rogues went into Monks and Demon Hunters so with Rogues they are not really pushing the boundaries of change (exception being Shadow Dance charges and Roll the Bones).

you are probably right but i still think there is drastic oversimplification going on with the class right now. i fucking hate how our niche is going away because they want to make the spec more accessible and in doing so just said "fuck it why not make the entire class so fucking barren any retard can play it". and u know they're doing it on purpose too because of outlaw. literally how many casuals are coming to the rogue class because it offers fun gameplay vs. "i get to be a pirate xD". so they have to make sure all the glue eating pirates don't get too confused when they get to play the ninja spec.

this isn't really against what u said i just wanted to get it out. i fucking hate casuals

[Mafic]

you are probably right but i still think there is drastic oversimplification going on with the class right now. i fucking hate how our niche is going away because they want to make the spec more accessible and in doing so just said "fuck it why not make the entire class so fucking barren any retard can play it". and u know they're doing it on purpose too because of outlaw. literally how many casuals are coming to the rogue class because it offers fun gameplay vs. "i get to be a pirate xD". so they have to make sure all the glue eating pirates don't get too confused when they get to play the ninja spec.

this isn't really against what u said i just wanted to get it out. i fucking hate casuals

Well they are under the assumption that the Rogue class is hard to play which is why the population at level cap is so low. and why they are simplifying things. I would argue the leveling experience is what deters the vast majority of players from leveling a Rogue to endgame. To be brutally honest they made it worse in WoD for leveling Rogues or new to the class and Legion hasn't made it that much better. It is true that Crimson Vial is better than Recuperate...overall the loss of Combat Readiness, Prep, Smoke bomb, Shiv, etc are all very noticeable. And what about a player that chooses to play and level as Assassination? No Blind or Gouge. What about Sub? No ability to AoE reliably other than Shuriken Storm. And if you haven't noticed they moved back Adrenaline Rush to be acquired later in the leveling process now.

Sticking to Sub Rogues in mind since this is a Legion Sub Rogue thread I feel that they need to bridge the gap of the spec design to move away from the old design from Jan and really look over the spec artifact talents and talent trees.

They changed Strike from the Shadows to turn it into a daze against other players. But that kind of defeats the point of a talent on the same tier as Entangled Shadows...and why is a Rogue slow easily dispellable when it is attached to a major DoT of the spec? This is things that they need to sit down and really think about instead of making it merely an afterthought. But given the time constraints they are under pressure right now that isn't likely.

[Wow]

This is things that they need to sit down and really think about instead of making it merely an afterthought. But given the time constraints they are under pressure right now that isn't likely.

It's the same story every beta they put in a little work on rogues early on then ignore them the rest of beta and undertune their dmg during dmg tuning and get the bandaids out in x.1/x.2.

Well they are under the assumption that the Rogue class is hard to play which is why the population at level cap is so low. and why they are simplifying things.

It's hard to say that's it as they simplified every class.

[Sicarius87]

I didn't even think about that. I did when they introduced Monk though.

Also now that I've read the Alpha Notes and discovered absolutely nothing impactful at all, I don't even know what to do. Oh, they also made poison cast time longer.

You do realize that on live right now it is a 3s cast time but the glyph makes it 1.5s. Right? Literally nothing has changed.

[kalaratic]

thoughts on the new shadowstrike icon? since there's really nothing else to talk about:

old:

new:

[Aceveda]

thoughts on the new shadowstrike icon? since there's really nothing else to talk about:

old:

new:

LOL

yep a new icon is definitely what Sub is in need of!

[Wow]

Always a good sign when they move on to new icons...